Quality Programmable Sine Wave Controller?

[rg12]

Pretty sure it’s yuyangking..
E86F02B1-1486-404D-8290-F525B02FBB76.jpeg

And yes, adaptto is known for their weak onset, and explosions too. There are many adapttos here that went the same way..

Haha, nice work detective!
Well, it seems like a different controller as it looks nothing like the junk they sell and is much smaller for the power and also the fact that they have power levels based on amp changes and no app and a version called VIOLENCE ON seems promising.

btw, can you please explain what it means "simulated" sign/foc?
If it's not "real" then what is it actually? a quiet version of square? :lol:

 

[larsb]

True FOC requires exact knowledge of the position of the rotor, hall sensors is not enough since the position is known only six times per electric revolution. Most controllers that call themselves FOC are actually a simulated sinewave so the output is sine shaped but the field oriented control is not done.

An example of true FOC is the VESC where there is a sensorless position algorithm that’s accurate enough and a processor powerful enough to do FOC (if parameters are set correctly :wink: )

There’s a bit higher efficiency with FOC, but simulated sinewave is good enough for most applications.

a version called VIOLENCE ON seems promising.

You know there’s no magic to it, right? If Votol has higher output then it doesn’t matter how much “violence” is in the yuyangking controller.. It’ll be fun to see how you like it. It’s always nice to have more controller options out there

 

[rg12]

True FOC requires exact knowledge of the position of the rotor, hall sensors is not enough since the position is known only six times per electric revolution. Most controllers that call themselves FOC are actually a simulated sinewave so the output is sine shaped but the field oriented control is not done.

An example of true FOC is the VESC where there is a sensorless position algorithm that’s accurate enough and a processor powerful enough to do FOC (if parameters are set correctly :wink: )

There’s a bit higher efficiency with FOC, but simulated sinewave is good enough for most applications.

a version called VIOLENCE ON seems promising.

You know there’s no magic to it, right? If Votol has higher output then it doesn’t matter how much “violence” is in the yuyangking controller.. It’ll be fun to see how you like it. It’s always nice to have more controller options out there

So FOC doesn't need the motor sensors connected?
and how does it learn the position with no sensors?
and if most sine waves out there are not really sine, then what would be the difference from true sine? they are already super quiet, so it seems that the benefit of true sine is also in the non true sine?
Which controller brand is true sine? and how do you know if it's true or not?

About power...
I feel an 80A Greentime controller so much stronger than a 150A Sabvoton open all the way.
btw, the one in the link I posted is not by Yuyangking, it's by a different brand called Yuma.

 

[E-HP]

how does it learn the position with no sensors?

OK, pure guess. Back EMF?

 

[larsb]

True FOC requires exact knowledge of the position of the rotor, hall sensors is not enough since the position is known only six times per electric revolution. Most controllers that call themselves FOC are actually a simulated sinewave so the output is sine shaped but the field oriented control is not done.

An example of true FOC is the VESC where there is a sensorless position algorithm that’s accurate enough and a processor powerful enough to do FOC (if parameters are set correctly :wink: )

There’s a bit higher efficiency with FOC, but simulated sinewave is good enough for most applications.

So FOC doesn't need the motor sensors connected?
and how does it learn the position with no sensors?

BEMF or inductance measurement, there are other methods also

and if most sine waves out there are not really sine, then what would be the difference from true sine?

Google Field Oriented Control / FOC. What’s called Sine (‘sinus’) is the shape of the phase current output so actually “sine” or “sinewave” has nothing to do with FOC

they are already super quiet, so it seems that the benefit of true sine is also in the non true sine?

See above, efficiency, torque

Which controller brand is true sine?

it’s not called true sine but FOC. VESC, i think sevcon controllers are another example

and how do you know if it's true or not?

if it’s cheap, it’s not FOC. If you don’t need to input motor parameters like phase resistance and inductance then it’s not FOC as the FOC calculations are dependent on these

About power...
I feel an 80A Greentime controller so much stronger than a 150A Sabvoton open all the way.

i’m digging in the memory here..It’s probably because many of the infineon type controllers (greentime) have poor phase current control so you get high phase currents no matter what you set, and phase current is what matters for torque. Never owned a sabvoton so cannot say anything about it.
Is 80A phase or battery current..

The alibaba controller hasn’t even got phase current setting specified for the three levels, makes me think it will be a hard onset, poor control output. You’d probably directly want to have better throttle control just like the when using infineons

btw, the one in the link I posted is not by Yuyangking, it's by a different brand called Yuma.

 

[rg12]

True FOC requires exact knowledge of the position of the rotor, hall sensors is not enough since the position is known only six times per electric revolution. Most controllers that call themselves FOC are actually a simulated sinewave so the output is sine shaped but the field oriented control is not done.

An example of true FOC is the VESC where there is a sensorless position algorithm that’s accurate enough and a processor powerful enough to do FOC (if parameters are set correctly :wink: )

There’s a bit higher efficiency with FOC, but simulated sinewave is good enough for most applications.

So FOC doesn't need the motor sensors connected?
and how does it learn the position with no sensors?

BEMF or inductance measurement, there are other methods also

and if most sine waves out there are not really sine, then what would be the difference from true sine?

Google Field Oriented Control / FOC. What’s called Sine (‘sinus’) is the shape of the phase current output so actually “sine” or “sinewave” has nothing to do with FOC

they are already super quiet, so it seems that the benefit of true sine is also in the non true sine?

See above, efficiency, torque

Which controller brand is true sine?

it’s not called true sine but FOC. VESC, i think sevcon controllers are another example

and how do you know if it's true or not?

if it’s cheap, it’s not FOC. If you don’t need to input motor parameters like phase resistance and inductance then it’s not FOC as the FOC calculations are dependent on these

About power...
I feel an 80A Greentime controller so much stronger than a 150A Sabvoton open all the way.

i’m digging in the memory here..It’s probably because many of the infineon type controllers (greentime) have poor phase current control so you get high phase currents no matter what you set, and phase current is what matters for torque. Never owned a sabvoton so cannot say anything about it.
Is 80A phase or battery current..

The alibaba controller hasn’t even got phase current setting specified for the three levels, makes me think it will be a hard onset, poor control output. You’d probably directly want to have better throttle control just like the infineons

btw, the one in the link I posted is not by Yuyangking, it's by a different brand called Yuma.

Thanks for the detailed reply

Is infineon the shape of the signal like sine? (sorry if I sound dumb...)

I like the poor control of the Greentime, that's what gives it the mad acceleration from 0 speed but with 150A controllers or so it is too much and you have to have control.
About Sabvoton, just imagine a snail on the back of a turtle on a 90 degree incline and you will understand the type of acceleration it has (just like Kelly or maybe a bit worse).

When I'm mentioning amps I always mean battery current.

 

[larsb]

Infineon is a chip manufacturer. It’s what’s inside a lot of the cheap square wave controllers.

The poor phase current control combined with a powerful motor is scary. I have nearly flipped my Lyen/infineon equipped bike a few times due to this.

 

[rg12]

Infineon is a chip manufacturer. It’s what’s inside the greentime, lyen and most cheap square wave controllers.

The poor phase current control combined with a powerful motor is scary. I have nearly flipped my Lyen/infineon equipped bike a few times due to this.

Haha, that's what most freaks are into these days.
When you think about it, most go for high powered super tamed controllers like Sabvoton, Kelly or any unknown Chinese "sine" controllers.
They go for like 150A since they don't understand that what they lack of is acceleration and not power since with the right acceleration you can have a 100A controller and enjoy a heart attack style acceleration.
That's what sells, people ride a 150A Sabvoton, then they ride my bike with a 24S matched with Greentime 80A (maybe modded to around 100A) and they are impressed enough to buy the simple stuff over the "hitech" stuff.

So you say that most chinese controllers are square wave, am I right?

 

[larsb]

No, saying that the cheapest stuff is square wave infineon style but sinewave controllers are not rare these days, starting to be the new norm if you pay a bit more.

I think the difference between the infineon/xiechang/greentime controllers is that yes, they put out high starting current but also explode. The ”tamed” controllers limit start current, possibly too much

 

[rg12]

No, saying that the cheapest stuff is square wave infineon style but sinewave controllers are not rare these days, starting to be the new norm if you pay a bit more.

I think the difference between the infineon controllers is that yes, they put out high starting current but also explode. The ”tamed” controllers limit start current, possibly too much

The simple ones don't have thermal protection so if you go on a crazy long incline with a heavy rider or sea sand for long then it's toast but for me I ride with a modded Greentime for a few years and all is good.
On the other hand I've seen a friend of mine lose 3 Sabvotons in one month since any little thing kills them, even static electricity :lol:
Another friend had 3 units of ASI BAC4000 (a $600 controller) dead within a year, something with interference of the switch mounted to the body, you just flick the switch and it never turned on again (3 controllers!).
So it's just like any hitech stuff, I ride my piece of shit car next to a 2019 Mercedes S500 standing on the back of a towing truck since something in it's computer decided it's broken.

 

[larsb]

It’s just that the word on sabvoton controllers is that they’re low quality since some time. So you’re comparing a chinese ”lucky motor” to a romanian ”dacia” car

 

[rg12]

It’s just that the word on sabvoton controllers is that they’re low quality since some time. So you’re comparing a chinese ”lucky motor” to a romanian ”dacia” car

Haha, sometimes simple is better...
We went on a ride 10 people with custom high powered rigs and the ones with the programmable ones were stopping every second for something...mystery cutoffs and such...
Of course ASI is light years better than my Greentime but sometimes reliability takes performance :wink:

 

[larsb]

I just read this 1000 post thread on greentime controllers. https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=40900
Wouldn't deal with them or buy a controller based on this, as it will be a hit or miss experience.. Personally think that this type of low price / low quality can't be defended even when you can buy five times before the price is matching a more expensive controller.


Come to think of it, not a lot of proven controllers out there and there's no evidence yet that he Votols are the bees knees since they're not used in large numbers at ES (as far as i know).. they might go the same route as the Adapttos that was hyped, loved, exploded and eventually went bust.

what phase current is programmed on the Sabvoton you refer to as weaker than the Greentime?

 

[wturber]

Come to think of it, not a lot of proven controllers out there and there's no evidence yet that he Votols are the bees knees since they're not used in large numbers at ES (as far as i know).. they might go the same route as the Adapttos that was hyped, loved, exploded and eventually went bust.

One of the problems is that people having problems are much more likely to be posting on forums etc. So it can sometimes be hard to get a good idea of a product's reliability.

 

[larsb]

Totally agree, real quality is measured in ppm and a few users issues here cannot represent this.

It’s hard to get facts but the worst crap should eventually be gone from the good sellers stores as they cause so much extra work also in their part of the chain..

I wonder how QS motors can continue to sell the kelly kls controllers. I’ve had five die (four during use since the first kelly was destroyed by me). They must have a thousand warranty cases to handle on these each year.

 

[Sunder]

What destroyed the Kelly's? As I said, I have one I haven't used yet, but if they are unreliable, I may well just try to get something smaller and more reliable before its a frustration.

 

[larsb]

Two just went silently to sleep, opened them and couldn’t find any obvious problem.

One blew the fets quite violently

One took in water (it was sealed..)

one i shorted myself. My first

 

[rg12]

Two just went silently to sleep, opened them and couldn’t find any obvious problem.

One blew the fets quite violently

One took in water (it was sealed..)

one i shorted myself. My first

Well, your are doing gods work, you are killing that horrible controller so we wouldn't have to suffer from it :lol:

 

[jpacadd]

So what does everyone use? Why isn't phaserunner in the convo or did I miss it? I'm about to start my second build, 2009 Giant Trance X4 bought. First build is 52V BBSHD and I'm trying to decide what to do with the next build, which obviously has to be faster than the first...

 

[larsb]

Phaserunner is a bit lower power, might be a bit too low to fit with the others on the list?

Apart from that it looks great so it should be on it, good call.

 

[amberwolf]

What destroyed the Kelly's?

some kellys have been known to just explode internally for no apparent reason, but i don't remember which series they were. afaicr they were being used within their specs and limitations, but i can't find the posts about them right now, and since they werent' by me i don't have notes here about it.

other brands i don't recall right now have had similar troulbes, i think the newer sabvotons that just use the name but look completely different than the old ones are one of them. .

 

[amberwolf]

for those willing to do diy, the lebowski controller brain will do what you want, paired with whichever power stage (of the several that have been developed here on es, each of which has threads for it) that you need for your power level.

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/search.php?keywords=lebowski&terms=all&author=&sc=1&sf=titleonly&sr=topics&sk=t&sd=d&st=0&ch=300&t=0&submit=Search

 

[rg12]

So what does everyone use? Why isn't phaserunner in the convo or did I miss it? I'm about to start my second build, 2009 Giant Trance X4 bought. First build is 52V BBSHD and I'm trying to decide what to do with the next build, which obviously has to be faster than the first...

Phaserunner is a rewrap version of ASI BAC500 or BAC350, they just designed a different case for it and for ASI I did cover them in the intial message of this thread.

 

[rg12]

for those willing to do diy, the lebowski controller brain will do what you want, paired with whichever power stage (of the several that have been developed here on es, each of which has threads for it) that you need for your power level.

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/search.php?keywords=lebowski&terms=all&author=&sc=1&sf=titleonly&sr=topics&sk=t&sd=d&st=0&ch=300&t=0&submit=Search

Looks interesting but I'm looking for a ready to use.
Actually was super intrigued by all the amazing vesc projects but they are suprisingly pricey for diy projects.

 

[eee291]

http://www.eastgem.net/deco-b.html

This one has a nice UI