[rant] If A123 cells are so great....

[deVries]

No one has had these 20Ah cells for much more than about a year including you! Since when did you get these 20Ah A123 cells in your hands to touch?

Thanks for proving my point about your spreading disinformation.  The 20ah a123 pouches were introduced on endless sphere in 2009, and here is that 2009 sale thread where I bought mine:

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=14832

I did do a search today and only could find that you did document build(s) before 2012 with A123 15Ah cells. Show us your build threads with 20Ah cells before 2012.

You wrote:

by oatnet » Sat Jun 26, 2010 9:16 am

I'm pretty much sold out of the pouch cells now with the remaining cells spoken for.

Wow, I guess I bought that 28s of cells just in time! I'm still messing with my 16s/48v pack, I'm not ready to start the 28s/100v pack, but I thought I'd buy 'em before you ran out - now I am glad I did!

-JD

You also posted this in April 2012 about your Norco build:

The front pack is 24s of 16ah a123 prisimatics (I thought I had used 20ah pouches earlier, I was confused )

You posted this about your Specialized Endro in January 2011:

48v of 16ah prisimatic a123's will go in an ammo can on the forks.

 
Feel free to prove me wrong by post links to any contributions you have made actually building an eBike, or an eBike pack, or personally molested a cell in any fashion.  Lets see the depth of your experience, my experience is documented by the links in my signature.

I've never had to document and post any ebike or battery builds on ES, but that does NOT mean I have not done those things more than once. I have. You're just a troll & assh, and you think I have to prove your lies wrong???!!! You're ass backwards JD/Oatnet. Your Off-Topic trolling too.

Whether you used real A123 20Ah cells back in 2010 I don't know by the very link you provided, and I see no proof of that yet. It hardly amounts to "disinformation" though, about the proper use and installation of these 20Ah cells according to A123 specifications!!!

All I found were 15Ah builds you did??? Please, I'm certain you have the build threads to point the way to those 20Ah cells Pre-2012. Ohhh, and if you do thanks for the correction. I humbly beseech your majesty to chop off my head if it pleases you, not!

If you correct me by pointing the way to your pre-2012 A123 20Ah build threads, then I happily will stop spreading such dastardly evil disinformation about that. :lol:

 

[ohzee]

The ignore feature works very well as long as the person ignored is not quoted.

my 2 cents

 

[etriker]

The ignore feature works very well as long as the person ignored is not quoted.

my 2 cents

If you count on the ignore feature that makes it harder for you to develop real online forum ignore skills ?

Online thickskinness can be a good online skill !

I am getting better at it.

 

[wb9k]

Tested conjecture is experience. Experience refines the design. Experience trumps pure analytically studies. In my past business we modeled the daylights out of the design. 3D this and finite element that, add a dose of finite difference and chant a few words over the cray... the real answer to if the design was good enough was not really known 'till the fire was lit and the bird took flight... and returned.

There's a lot of discontent in the world these days, twas nice to have the ol' board smooth and comfortable like old friends around the table. Takes everyone to make it that way and to make the new folks welcome.

My opinion on the A123 pouch cells, and I stated it before is any amount of pressure helps. When I first bought mine, I did not know that they needed to have compression of the order of 10 psi. The extra hardware to do that is adding weight and space. I am rethinking if pouch is the best package. I am going to assume that all pouches need pressure, and EVEN pressure. Simple shrink wrap doesn't do it. It compresses the edges and the flat plane of the cells get almost no pressure. I am starting to think that cylindrical cells may well be worth considering again.

All very well put. I think you'll find a well-made cylindrical pack will weigh just a little bit more than an equivalent power prismatic module, but it will be noticeably larger. The increase in volumetric power density is what is driving the move to prismatics in the EV world. The weight savings are actually quite modest by the time you properly package the cells.

 

[etriker]

Tested conjecture is experience. Experience refines the design. Experience trumps pure analytically studies. In my past business we modeled the daylights out of the design. 3D this and finite element that, add a dose of finite difference and chant a few words over the cray... the real answer to if the design was good enough was not really known 'till the fire was lit and the bird took flight... and returned.

There's a lot of discontent in the world these days, twas nice to have the ol' board smooth and comfortable like old friends around the table. Takes everyone to make it that way and to make the new folks welcome.

My opinion on the A123 pouch cells, and I stated it before is any amount of pressure helps. When I first bought mine, I did not know that they needed to have compression of the order of 10 psi. The extra hardware to do that is adding weight and space. I am rethinking if pouch is the best package. I am going to assume that all pouches need pressure, and EVEN pressure. Simple shrink wrap doesn't do it. It compresses the edges and the flat plane of the cells get almost no pressure. I am starting to think that cylindrical cells may well be worth considering again.

All very well put. I think you'll find a well-made cylindrical pack will weigh just a little bit more than an equivalent power prismatic module, but it will be noticeably larger. The increase in total volumetric power density is what is driving the move to prismatics in the EV world. The weight savings are actually quite modest by the time you properly package the cells.

It is easier to make custom shaped packs to custom fit on the bike with 26650 cells.

 

[wb9k]

I have handled more than 500 of the a123 pouch cells in the past 3-4 years, I have built dozen or so a123 packs, and I have done nothing special for compression - and I have multiple build logs I can point to about how I implemented them. The only cells that ever puffed were a 4-cell block that I failed to balance with the pack I added them too and accidentally drained completely flat. If I were pulling 20c+, I would definitely compresses the pack. At the 1c/2c or even 5c level typical of ebikes, I'd just mount them in a close-fitting box.
-JD

Thanks for the suggestion! I've been pondering the rationale for compression, per wb9k' postings. Are all those packs in your possession still? How many cycles you up to on them?

If you really want to assess the state of health of the modules, do a capacity test and a DCR test at 2C or greater (while at 50% SOC). "They still work" isn't any kind of gauge as to how things are really holding up. I would be curious to see the results of tests like this for just about any pack folks have going out there, but especially the A123 stuff. That would be very useful for everyone.

 

[wb9k]

Tested conjecture is experience. Experience refines the design. Experience trumps pure analytically studies. In my past business we modeled the daylights out of the design. 3D this and finite element that, add a dose of finite difference and chant a few words over the cray... the real answer to if the design was good enough was not really known 'till the fire was lit and the bird took flight... and returned.

There's a lot of discontent in the world these days, twas nice to have the ol' board smooth and comfortable like old friends around the table. Takes everyone to make it that way and to make the new folks welcome.

My opinion on the A123 pouch cells, and I stated it before is any amount of pressure helps. When I first bought mine, I did not know that they needed to have compression of the order of 10 psi. The extra hardware to do that is adding weight and space. I am rethinking if pouch is the best package. I am going to assume that all pouches need pressure, and EVEN pressure. Simple shrink wrap doesn't do it. It compresses the edges and the flat plane of the cells get almost no pressure. I am starting to think that cylindrical cells may well be worth considering again.

All very well put. I think you'll find a well-made cylindrical pack will weigh just a little bit more than an equivalent power prismatic module, but it will be noticeably larger. The increase in total volumetric power density is what is driving the move to prismatics in the EV world. The weight savings are actually quite modest by the time you properly package the cells.

It is easier to make custom shaped packs to custom fit on the bike with 26650 cells.

You might be interested in some of the Hymotion modules that Hank Sybesma has and will be making available very soon, along with test results for each module they sell. Hey deVries, why don't you start a new thread showing off the ones you got?

 

[ohzee]

The ignore feature works very well as long as the person ignored is not quoted.

my 2 cents

If you count on the ignore feature that makes it harder for you to develop real online forum ignore skills ?

Online thickskinness can be a good online skill !

I am getting better at it.

i have used it once and this is that time.. if I say what I feel ill just get my posts pruned.

I run a pretty popular mmo vbulletin board for a group that excels in trolling so thick skin is not a problem for me.

I just think members of this board who take advantage of others should be nuked not given benefit of doubt, but
I don't blame anyone they are doing their best in an open community.

last comment Ill make on it and should not have said what i did damn mich ultras.

 

[deVries]

It is easier to make custom shaped packs to custom fit on the bike with 26650 cells.

Excellent point, and I agree 100%.

The main thing to consider that is in extreme favor of using these cylindrical cells is these are already designed with the proper "psi rating" within the round shape and layering of the cell chemistry confined in such a way as to maximize the cycle life and output capacity too.

You might be interested in some of the Hymotion modules that Hank Sybesma has and will be making available very soon, along with test results for each module they sell. Hey deVries, why don't you start a new thread showing off the ones you got?

I promise I will very soon.

And, btw, these are VERY HIGH QUALITY modules that can be configured easily in 26v "chunks" to get 52v, 78v, etc. all in 8s11p 26650 pre-built size starting with 26v. (Even the 26v module can be divided by 2 to make a 12v+ battery.)

The size of the very well constructed 8s11p 26v module is about 12" x 5.5" x 6"H. I'm very impressed with the quality of these modules. To get the 8s11p module you can see below it is actually 2x4s11p that is bonded together. See those two centered horizontal plates in pic bonded together, see below...



More to come very soon...

 

[999zip999]

etriker and devries find a life. Please. Troll boys.

J.D. is real life and is testing. And ?
J.D. don't slow down. Thanks lot's.

 

[etriker]

That would be perfect for my ewheelchair build. It is a 24v setup.

 

[999zip999]

 

[999zip999]

And Mega wraped
In the tri. and one on the rear rack for two 12s for 24s 20ah or 17ah A123 cells. working just fine

 

[etriker]

And Mega wraped
In the tri. and one on the rear rack for two 12s for 24s 20ah or 17ah A123 cells. working just fine

What is this Mega wrap you are talking about ? It looks like plastic wrap ?

And I have never heard of A123 17ah cells ? Where did you get them ?

Are you sure they are A123 ?

 

[deVries]

And Mega wraped
In the tri. and one on the rear rack for two 12s for 24s 20ah or 17ah A123 cells. working just fine

I don't understand the use of the term mega wrap. What is mega wrap ?

999zip999 pics show nothing about any provisions to apply equal psi pressure, recommended near 10psi, to the large stacked surface area of the cells, so he is not even attempting to meet A123 specifications in pack design that can be seen or deduced from those pics. :?

If true, then his batteries are at high risk of failure over time, that is years, like 3-8 years or less, especially, if the cells are used in higher amp draws with big amp controllers/motors for power ebikes and beyond. Might not even last 4yrs at high amp draws unless there is a redesign for proper psi distribution such as 5psi-15psi spread EQUALLY over the entire surface area of the stacked cells.

Of course, I don't expect 999zip999 or JD/oatnet to give a rats ass what A123 suggests. 999zip999 and his buddy JD/oatnet will just do what they want to do and A123 be damned... :lol:

My work great 300 cycles and 4.000 miles. Just wrapped with mega force.

 

[etriker]

And Mega wraped
In the tri. and one on the rear rack for two 12s for 24s 20ah or 17ah A123 cells. working just fine

I don't understand the use of the term mega wrap. What is mega wrap ?

999zip999 pics show nothing about any provisions to apply equal psi pressure, recommended near 10psi, to the large stacked surface area of the cells, so he is not even attempting to meet A123 specifications in pack design that can be seen or deduced from those pics. :?

If true, then his batteries are at high risk of failure over time, that is years, like 3-8 years or less, especially, if the cells are used in higher amp draws with big amp controllers/motors for power ebikes and beyond. Might not even last 4yrs at high amp draws unless there is a redesign for proper psi distribution such as 5psi-15psi spread EQUALLY over the entire surface area of the stacked cells.

If they are true A123 cells and they are at 17ah something is already wrong ?

 

[deVries]

If they are true A123 cells and they are at 17ah something is already wrong ?

First off, all these cells were obtained perhaps without official sales approval and/or let's say improperly possibly "out the back door" sales, so who knows really anything about the true grade/quality of these cells. The Korean plant is closed anyway now.

When JD/oatnet says 16amp, JD means a 15Ah cell which is discontinued and no longer made in Korea anyway. Who cares at this point WTFrack these cells will do, except JD/oatnet and 999zip999, since these are no longer obtainable or made.

When 999zip999 says 17Ah, he could mean 15amp cells too or sheeitty crappy 20Ah cells. Maybe he means the capacity he uses. Who knows. Either way, you can't buy these "back door" and/or got the right "inside connections" to get these resold anymore. Korea plant is shutdown.

 

[etriker]

Be careful. I got a 30 day ban for saying they were stolen.

edit

to be fair I had no proof of my claim. I was repeating hearsay.

I can prove that I am still using a soldered together pack of A123 cells from 2006.

 

[deVries]

Be careful. I got a 30 day ban for saying they were stolen.

Thanks for the heads-up.

I rephrased accordingly...

First off, all these cells were obtained perhaps without official sales approval and/or let's say improperly possibly "out the back door" sales, so who knows really anything about the true grade/quality of these cells. The Korean plant is closed anyway now.

 

[arkmundi]

You might be interested in some of the Hymotion modules that Hank Sybesma has and will be making available very soon, along with test results for each module they sell.

More information, please! and thanks again! new tread post request on Hymotion.

 

[etriker]

You might be interested in some of the Hymotion modules that Hank Sybesma has and will be making available very soon, along with test results for each module they sell.

More information, please! and thanks again! new tread post request on Hymotion.

I want one for my canoe motor too.

 

[999zip999]

The 20 ah A123 cells give 19ah and in real life you just take 17ah running without a bms or push it to 18ah ? This is how you have a battery last without bms and just a balance charger. O.k. boys so when you get or make an A123 20ah this is how I work it in real life. As oppose to troll life. Mega wrap ?

 

[arkmundi]

999zip99++1/oatnet++1/deVries----..../whatthefrackisallthisjack????urpollutingmybandwidth

 

[etriker]

The 20 ah A123 cells give 19ah and in real life you just take 17ah running without a bms or push it to 18ah ? This is how you have a battery last without bms and just a balance charger. O.k. boys so when you get or make an A123 20ah this is how I work it in real life. As oppose to troll life. Mega wrap ?

I am using a pack with balance leads and no bms made with A123 cells that were made in 2006.

When I put it together the cells were all around 2100 mah or better and they were already 5 years old ?

The A123 power lasts longer and the cell is way better protected in the little cans ?

The A123m1 cells do not need to be babied. They are the most rugged, forgiving cell I have ever tested.

I built a heavy etrike with a brushed motor and 60amp controller just so I could slam those cells hard !

(can prove it)

 

[etriker]

999zip99++1/oatnet++1/deVries----..../whatthefrackisallthisjack????urpollutingmybandwidth

It is the A123 rant thread ? Hello ?

bandwidth ?

999zip posted a 105.15 KiB Mega wrap picture and won't say what Mega wrap is ?

I like deVries picture better.

Rant on brother !