Rational transportation choices, or "My 3 ton SUV"

You got a female changing your flat tire... Dude you are my new hero/role model.

I'll give you added props for going rotary, even if the RX8 is a shameful end to what the RX7 was. *snif* lol

You my friend, can drive anything you wish and you'll still be ok by me.....slong as you keep the rotary alive in the garage. :mrgreen:
 
She ended up marrying me, so changing the wheels wasn't that bad after all, I guess. That wasn't a flat tire, btw, but rather switching from street rubber to R-compound DOT race rubber in the pits at the track (Kumho V710, specifically). 8)
 
HEH even better got her doing your pit work. She's def a keeper!
 
I have to admit, I was looking at used LX's back when my wife was set on an SUV. Rational was she hardly does any miles, plus I figured as long as you're going to have a SUV you may as well have the real deal you can wheel on Sundays. Luckily she realized that SUV's suck after a few test drives.
 
Those type 4wd's are so common here but I always wonder why there are so many in the city with immaculate paint with no intention to go offroad, usually to take kids to and from school, if I could afford one I'd be traveling and putting scratches on it and going places other cars can't, after all it's just a car
 
Its' all about not getting caught being seen in a damn minivan. There is a huge doofus stigma on those things. Dorkmobiles. So you gotta have an SUV, which if the 2wd version, is just another station wagon.

At one point, I had a ford aerostar minivan that was all wheel drive. It was excellent for driving a trailer full of windsurf gear through sand too deep to walk through to the waters edge. It always got an amazed look from the guys who needed a full size truck 4x4 to get to the same place. There was though, way too much messed up ford stuff on that vehicle to keep it long. I never gave a damn about how I look, so the dork thing never bothered me. One van I owned even had the plastic fake wood sticker on the side. :D
 
I have great respect for minivans, and if we ever truly _need_ 3 rows of seats then my wife and I will be the first in line at the Toyota or Honda dealership. I don't have any misconception that the foldaway 3rd row seats in SUVs, even great honkin' ones like in the LX 570, are very useful. To start with, there's the gymnastics required to get in there, and then there's the lack of legroom. Minivans are better medium-large family vehicles. I accept that.

We don't need 3 rows of seats at this time, though, and until that day comes I think that something with a really nice interior, fancy toys such as a all singing and dancing stereo and adaptive cruise control, a torquey V8, and enough ground clearance/real off-road bits to be marginally useful off the road would be more fun. (Necessary? No. Fun? Possibly.)
 
I have respect for minivans also. Of all the people with SUV's I know, that is all they get used as. Minivans. Except they do everything minivans need to do worse. Now that there is the doofus way to go.

Anyway if its good enough for eazy its good enough for me.
eazy.jpg
 
Minivans worked good for me for sure. Tools were locked inside during the week instead of loose in the bed of a truck, and a huge pack of dogs could fit inside on the weekend. First thing to go was always all the seats. What finally turned me off minivans was that they were nearly impossible to work on. The subarus are amazingly easy to work on, except for plugs. No way to carry 6 bloodhounds in a subaru though.
 
Toshi said:
I would try to make it out on as many "high clearance 4x4 only" roads as I could at our nation's beautiful National Parks, on the other hand.
vanilla ice said:
If you're REALLY going to go places an AWD car/minivan can't go.. I can see the LX making sense.

I'm going to flesh out this idea above a little more in a series of two pots.

First, vehicle and road type definitions per the National Park Service itself, emphasis theirs, not mine:

High Clearance Two-Wheel-Drive (2WD) Vehicles
A high clearance 2WD vehicle is defined as a SUV or truck type vehicle, with at least 15 inch tire rims or more, designed for heavier type use than a standard passenger vehicle, with at least 8 inches of clearance or more, from the lowest point of the frame, body, suspension, or differential, to the ground.

High Clearance Four-Wheel-Drive (4WD) Vehicles
A high clearance 4WD vehicle is defined as a SUV or truck type vehicle, with at least 15 inch tire rims or more, with a low gear transfer case, designed for heavier type use than a standard passenger vehicle, with at least 8 inches of clearance or more from the lowest point of the frame, body, suspension, or differential, to the ground, also including a means to mechanically power both, front and real wheels at the same time.

High Clearance Two-Wheel-Drive (2WD) Roads
These are maintained gravel roads where a high clearance 2WD vehicle is able to travel safely at low speeds on long dry straight-of-ways, without losing control due to wash boarding, ruts, or dips. All high clearance 2WD roads may be rocky with areas or soft gravel or sand that makes travel unsafe for sedans or RVs.

High Clearance Four-Wheel-Drive (4WD) Roads
These are unmaintained roads where a high clearance 4WD vehicle, in four-wheel-drive, driven by a driver experienced in 4WD drive techniques, can drive the road without getting stuck. All 4WD roads may be rocky, with deep sand or gravel and steep hills.

Note the bit about low range transfer cases. Faux-SUVs (e.g. Highlander) won't have it, and AWD minivans and cars certainly won't. (Ok, before someone pedantically points out that very early Audi Quattro vehicles in the early 80s had dual range transfer cases I'll acknowledge that. Try and find a modern example, though…) The Land Cruiser and LX have such a 4-L option, of course. Also note that 8"+ of ground clearance will only be present on true SUVs. Some Subarus may well have enough clearance (e.g. Outback), but they'll lack the low range transfer case and will also fall short in the approach, breakover, and departure angle categories.

Nothing is mentioned of open vs. locked diffs, but the A-TRAC system on modern Toyotas seems to actually be a pretty good substitute for lockers on something that, honestly, would be a 99% road vehicle apart from larks such as the ones I'll explain in the next post…
 
Now to find some of the National Parks that have said high clearance 4x4 roads. I tried searching for "high clearance" within nps.gov itself, but this probably misses some here and there. I know for a fact that Canyonlands and Capitol Reef NPs and Guadalupe Mountains Natl Monument have such roads, having either driven them in the past or considered driving them and deciding that it wasn't a prudent idea at the time, and utah.com turned out to have sections dedicated to them.

Here's an alphabetical list that likely is far from comprehensive, and, again, is only covering National Parks save for the Route 66 bit (which I found as it was hosted on nps.gov):

Arches National Park, and the surrounding Moab area: Arches and Moab are chock-full of off road goodness. Slickrock isn't just for bicycles! Without going full-retard rock crawler there are many places that are most easily accessed in Arches with a 4x4:

[youtube]WT4KeLZHBD8[/youtube]

Big Bend National Park, Primitive Dirt Roads: There are 4 unimproved dirt roads in Big Bend NP totaling 101.5 miles, as well as many more miles of improved dirt roads with variable conditions.

Capitol Reef National Park: There are over 100 miles of unmaintained roads, with ditches and the occasional stream crossing, within Capitol Reef. I did the Cathedral Valley loop in 2003, a 58-mile off-road journey that mostly was within the capability of, say, a Subaru Forester (I indeed saw one) but which had segments that truly did require low range and better clearance/approach/departure angles. See the first photo in the above post for one vista from the Cathedral Valley loop. The Temples of the Sun (foreground) and the Moon (background) are below, also from that same loop:

27.jpg


Canyonlands National Park, Shafer Rim Trail and others: Canyonlands "is one of the world's great places for off-road adventure" per utah.com. After seeing the below photo from the Shafer Rim road that leads to the 100 mile White Rim Trail I wouldn't disagree. Some of the descriptions lead me to pucker up a bit, and indeed I declined to go off-road when I visited Canyonlands for (justified) fear of not being prepared enough. This is a place where a sat phone, a few buddies, shovels, traction aids to free oneself from sand, proper tires, and plenty of gas and supplies would be a Good Idea (tm).

mgJ7Z.jpg


Death Valley National Park, Unmaintained Dirt or 4WD Roads: There are at least several hundred miles of high clearance +/- 4x4 roads in and near Death Valley NP listed at the link. There are also many dozens if not hundreds or more miles of maintained dirt roads and roads outside the national park's boundary. There's also a nicer PDF that the Park Service threw together that apparently highlights some of the better (?) unmaintained roads. Somewhat ominously, several of the descriptions for the unmaintained roads stress that only short wheelbase high clearance 4x4 vehicles the size of a Jeep Wrangler are recommended. Yikes. Check out this declaration, for instance:

High clearance 4WD with short-wheel base beyond Lee’s Camp to upper Echo Canyon (CCJ-5 or smaller). Even the best drivers may do some damage going over the dry fall. There is one section that is so tight that a small 4WD can barely get through. Travel along this old road is not recommended unless part of a vehicle caravan. Rangers cannot reach you if help is needed.

El Malpais National Monument: Although there are two main roads accessible by all vehicles, all the other roads at this national monument are of the high clearance 4x4-recommended variety.

Great Sand Dunes National Park and Preserve, trail access and Medano Pass 4WD Road: There are a few optional hiking trail access points only accessible via high clearance 4x4 vehicle, and the Medano Pass road, with stream crossings and the like, is restricted to 4x4s. I didn't go to Great Sand Dunes on my 2003 roadtrip, but instead visited White Sand National Monument where I shot a few vistas such as this one:

18.jpg


Guadalupe Mountains National Park, Williams Ranch: 7.3 miles out and then the same back to access a historic ranchhouse up in the mountains. I did this one as part of my 2003 roadtrip (see photo above with front fender of purple Pathfinder in view, and this resulting underwhelming photo at the ranchhouse itself):

47.jpg


Mount Logan Wilderness Area: Although Wilderness Areas themselves forbid any mechanized transport, including bicycles, let alone a clanking 4x4, the Mount Logan Wilderness Area just north of the Colorado River near the Grand Canyon actually requires a 2.5 hr drive on a high clearance vehicle-only dirt road just to reach its boundary!

Route 66 as it crosses New Mexico: Trying to follow the path of historic Route 66 can require traversing unmaintained stretches that are only suitable for high-clearance vehicles now.
 
Had to use the google search engine for "route 66" to find this thread and found more than what I was looking for. Looking for fellow posters for shared information on the route and its many places to visit along. So, if anyone is interested please do. The Road to Arcosanti: Paved with Good Intentions about Arcosanti Road, a newly completed DOT funded road, not too far from Route 66. So posting it as a must-see site for fellow travellers of this historic scenic road.
800px-Map_of_US_66.svg.png

Note: See also the post about Ed's Diner, the starting place in Vacation in America.
 
The fingers said:
A Sprinter van is large and gets 25mpg. :mrgreen:
and now they are imported here in 4x4 form with low range, no less!

My Land Cruiser fits in a garage and has worlds better articulation, on the other hand, the former more important than the latter in real life.
 
In 2011, in the first page, you mentioned burning all the oil and coil in this planet one way or another. Well, impossible, after reaching the oil reserves below the salt layer, its more likely we'll burn ourselves before we burn all the oil.
 
mateusleo said:
In 2011, in the first page, you mentioned burning all the oil and coil in this planet one way or another. Well, impossible, after reaching the oil reserves below the salt layer, its more likely we'll burn ourselves before we burn all the oil.
Uh oh, another romp to the sh*tter and back, gotta watch where you step. As a former owner of the Ford Escape Hybrid, merging the SUV with a high-mileage Atkinson engine and an electric motor & drivetrain, I can appreciate the niceties on the road. And yea, sometimes nostalgic for all the metal around me. But remain car-free now for going on 2 years and glad of it. Rational transportation choices: my eBike plus bike friendly bus system and the trains. Talk about metal enclosed cocoon for travel, I'll take the bus or train over an SUV any time. But, yea, the road we're on, the choice having been made, we'll still have oil & coal in the ground as we cook off life on this planet. And the thing about reason at that time? It won't matter any more. The highest life form will again be the cockroach.
 
arkmundi said:
mateusleo said:
In 2011, in the first page, you mentioned burning all the oil and coil in this planet one way or another. Well, impossible, after reaching the oil reserves below the salt layer, its more likely we'll burn ourselves before we burn all the oil.
Uh oh, another romp to the sh*tter and back, gotta watch where you step. As a former owner of the Ford Escape Hybrid, merging the SUV with a high-mileage Atkinson engine and an electric motor & drivetrain, I can appreciate the niceties on the road. And yea, sometimes nostalgic for all the metal around me. But remain car-free now for going on 2 years and glad of it. Rational transportation choices: my eBike plus bike friendly bus system and the trains. Talk about metal enclosed cocoon for travel, I'll take the bus or train over an SUV any time. But, yea, the road we're on, the choice having been made, we'll still have oil & coal in the ground as we cook off life on this planet. And the thing about reason at that time? It won't matter any more. The highest life form will again be the cockroach.


I can already see the cockroaches riding eletric bikes in the post apocalyptic world...
 
This thread is amusing. It seems the argument for the huge SUV went along the lines of "maximum safety for my family" and "must be able to climb a cliff, on the 0.001% chance I'll ever want to".

Yet I didn't see the word "roll-over" mentioned anywhere? I find it bizarre to consider driving any car that is so badly designed it isn't stable. The need to swerve at speed is foreseeable and relatively common. The idea that such an event will likely result in a death roll, smashing the occupants heads against the sides of the vehicle is absurd. Who, at the manufacturing company, did that risk analysis an concluded it was OK?
 
One of my fantasies that I may yet live out is a modern version of cowboys & indians: SUV drivers versus eBike riders. Equipping myself with a paint ball gun and shooting large SUV's on the road as a statement on the general state of affairs. Of course, I'll finish my 3000 watt MXUS build first for that fast get away. See if I can evoke a chase that either has the driver wrecked or arrested. :lol:
 
Punx0r said:
This thread is amusing. It seems the argument for the huge SUV went along the lines of "maximum safety for my family" and "must be able to climb a cliff, on the 0.001% chance I'll ever want to".

Yet I didn't see the word "roll-over" mentioned anywhere? I find it bizarre to consider driving any car that is so badly designed it isn't stable. The need to swerve at speed is foreseeable and relatively common. The idea that such an event will likely result in a death roll, smashing the occupants heads against the sides of the vehicle is absurd. Who, at the manufacturing company, did that risk analysis an concluded it was OK?
This conventional wisdom regarding rollovers no longer holds true. Data and my thoughts on it here (I'm shikataganai): http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2195556

Also note that my Land Cruiser is equipped with stability control and a full complement of airbags, including side curtain airbags (defeatable for off-road driving at high degrees of camber). I do prefer to bike commute, sans electricity these days, but when I have a rehearsal or the like then I pick up the keys to my Land Cruiser knowing that it can pull its significant weight, as it were.
 
Toshi said:
Punx0r said:
This conventional wisdom regarding rollovers no longer holds true. Data and my thoughts on it here (I'm shikataganai): http://forums.nasioc.com/forums/showthread.php?t=2195556

Also note that my Land Cruiser is equipped with stability control and a full complement of airbags, including side curtain airbags (defeatable for off-road driving at high degrees of camber). I do prefer to bike commute, sans electricity these days, but when I have a rehearsal or the like then I pick up the keys to my Land Cruiser knowing that it can pull its significant weight, as it were.

I think that information was adequately criticised in the thread you link to.

I've tried to find a video of an American SUV doing a Scandinavian Flick, but failed. I'd love to see one, but I suspect there is a good reason few people try.

Rollover can be prevented to some extent by electronic stability control systems and active suspension. However, once the car goes sideways enough at a sufficient speed simple physics will always take over (centre of gravity & track width Vs. tyre friction).
 
A Scandanavian outfit does their "moose test" on SUVs. Data exist, and the empirical data show at least unibody "CUV"s to not be killing their occupants unduly. This isn't that surprising: these modern non-off-road capable vehicles are cars or wagons with a little more ground clearance and approach angle to satisfy the US's arbitrary CAFE rules that are more lenient on SUVs and trucks.

My Land Cruiser admittedly is a tall beast, necessary to fit those 32" (aftermarket, OEM is 31") tires when at full compression of the long travel suspension. It is also body on frame, which raises the passenger compartment further but probably doesn't raise the center of gravity since the mechanicals are more dense than I am. I also considered the Land Cruiser Prado/Lexus GX, but that felt overly narrow in relation to its height, whereas mine is a bit shorter but is wider.
 
Back
Top