Re: HT Norko Aline - version mid drive, adaptto+rv100pro

[deepfraught]

Norko vs. Norco.

 

[sn0wchyld]

Norko vs. Norco.

ahha lol sorry, was to subtle for me (dyslexic). now that I understand... yes. it is...

 

[sn0wchyld]

[youtube]02pMJaK-nHI[/youtube]

this may be the last ride I had on the HT aline... I might get it running again but chances are it'll ultimately either get sold or changed to a mid drive. Unfortunatly this ride was short... I popped the rear tyre about 3 min in, and as always, it was just as I got to the bottom of the hill. I rode it back on the rim for a little while, but it was so shaky I decided the better of it. I still havent bothered to look but i'm 99% sure its the spokes stabbing into the tube (they were a bit too long in the end!).

I've got some more footage I'll upload as I get to it... given its the last month of uni that might not be for some time yet.

 

[deepfraught]

Cool, be interesting to see your offroad action before the flats.

I searched but couldn't find anything about gears or gearing?

 

[sn0wchyld]

Cool, be interesting to see your offroad action before the flats.

I searched but couldn't find anything about gears or gearing?

yea ive got a bit of offroad stuff, but most of it is shaky as hell since I rarely stop to place the camera for shots, and mounted on the handlebars doesn't work so well on the bumpy stuff.

not sure what you're referring to re gearing? its a hub motor... running in a 17" mx rim, so about 22" with the tire. I'm probably going to stick the old 26" rim back on there if I get a chance, and just concede the fact that I'll break a few spokes now and then.

 

[deepfraught]

Gearing, you know, for that funny old pedalling thing you do =D

 

[sn0wchyld]

Gearing, you know, for that funny old pedalling thing you do =D

pedal-ing? whats that?
i do see a spiky think on the front with 48 written on it... is that it?

 

[deepfraught]

aha, yeah that's 48km/h sprocket right? =D

Are you single speed/tensioner or spin-on cassette and derailleur?

I figure if my A2B Metro can be 48 front 7 speed and pedal with effort for 35kph on the flat, skinnier larger diameter tyres and similar weight package should be just as commutable on the Norco. (now I'm thinking swap it over from A2B, but I recall some unique thing about that freewheel/cassette that stumped people).

 

[sn0wchyld]

aha, yeah that's 48km/h sprocket right? =D

Are you single speed/tensioner or spin-on cassette and derailleur?

I figure if my A2B Metro can be 48 front 7 speed and pedal with effort for 35kph on the flat, skinnier larger diameter tyres and similar weight package should be just as commutable on the Norco. (now I'm thinking swap it over from A2B, but I recall some unique thing about that freewheel/cassette that stumped people).

nope got a 8spd on the back, 14 to 32 i think.

 

[deepfraught]

Cool, where did you get that from, any make/model/terminology they go by? Any 8 speed derailleur be fine?
A year ago I didn't have much luck finding an 11/12T cluster in spin-ons.

 

[sn0wchyld]

Cool, where did you get that from, any make/model/terminology they go by? Any 8 speed derailleur be fine?
A year ago I didn't have much luck finding an 11/12T cluster in spin-ons.

just at the lbs... nothing special. standard shimano I think.

yea, 11t/12t are pretty hard to find.

 

[sn0wchyld]

after my avanti D8 RC drive failed (controller problems) and my electric MTB destroyed a tire (I had no spares!) I was left with nothing to ride .

I'd already killed off my old 24s 10ah pack, so I decided to have another go at my original idea, cramming a 24s 8ah pack into what is effectively a pelican 1170 case. I bought it from a local Jaycar store on special ages ago, but gave up pretty quickly and rode for a while with just 5ah inside it, paralleling it with my old (now dead) 10ah pack for some extra range.

after much careful planning and cutting discharge leads short to save space, I managed to squeeze 8ah of 24s lipo in there! Enough to get me too and from uni, so long as i dont ride like a maniac. I think you'd be hard pressed to make a smaller 24s 8ah pack than this without breaking the packs up and using the individual cells...

I used the original 6 4s 5ah hardcase bricks from the original booster pack, seriesed then paralleled with 4 6s 3ah zippy packs (http://www.hobbyking.com/hobbyking/store/uh_viewitem.asp?idproduct=8918&aff=326255)

and all taped together, with just enough space at the top for a basic circuit board to parallel the individual cells and main discharge leads.

Without the bulky frame mounted batteries all the old wiring on the bike was exposed, and looked kind of crappy, so I decided to try taping the entire frame. I'm not a huge fan of the end result, but I do like the wires covered in tape, it gives the bike a weird 'vascular' alien look.



Its probably the first ebike ive built so far that I'm even remotely happy with (ive built '4' in total, 3 versions of the norko and 1 of the aline)... its far lighter and easier to handle, and far more balanced. Its also far more subtle with the batteries mounted on the front, so I'm less concerned with standing out to the fuzz.

I've also gone back to a 26" rear. the mx rim/tire was just too heavy, and the steel rim never stayed true. I removed the eyelets on the rim, so hopefully that will help the spokes last a bit longer than they used too... changeover was a breeze as I simply laced up my spare magnet ring, and put that in place of the one laced into the mx rim. It gave me a chance too to check out how the inernals of the motor have fared over the past 6 months - other than a little dust, they're great! wires are still as new, not even slightly tanned, and there's not a single spot of rust, even after riding through creeks deep enough to reach the pedals!

I'm now thingking about how I can add a 3 or 5 ah booster pack to the bike for those longer rides. alternatively though I might just leave this as is, as a rather fun commuter, and concentrate on a dedicated off road beast in the mean time... using a certain 93% efficient motor as a mid drive...

 

[shorza]

Your bike looks great and stealthy.

Can you please show how you have attached the pelican case?

 

[sn0wchyld]

Your bike looks great and stealthy.

Can you please show how you have attached the pelican case?

I basically drilled holes through the large plastic braces on the outside of the case, and screwed in a steel rod. I kept the holes small enough that nuts weren't' required, the rod tapped itself into the plastic as I drove it in... I also stuck some 6mm 'non slip foam' to the back of the case. Then I wrapped double sided velcro around the rods at each corner, and pulled the case in tight against the frame of the bike. The non slip foam gives something to pull in against, and stops the case from rattling, or moving at all. I prefer in many ways what you've done though, it takes me about 3-5 minutes to attach the pack (getting the 1st strap on tight is the hardest part, a bit fiddly). taking it off though takes less than 30 seconds.



(underside of the pack) Here you can clearly see the steel rod, and how the Velcro straps pull in against the foam.


and the top straps pulling in against the handlebars.

 

[shorza]

Great stuff, thanks.
I reckon i'll need to get some of that foam also.

 

[sn0wchyld]

Great stuff, thanks.
I reckon i'll need to get some of that foam also.

just head to clark rubber. after all... its more than foam and rubber! :lol:

 

[oatnet]

Hi snow, your build is looking great, nice job with the Pelican. Did you use a velcro mount instead of the hard-mount clamps so you could easily remove it?

-JD

 

[pendragon8000]

Yeah looks good man. hows the handling with weight up on bars/forks? is this mainly a comuter for now?
But yeah it really does look more stealth.
You finished exams or what?

 

[oatnet]

Yeah looks good man. hows the handling with weight up on bars/forks? is this mainly a comuter for now?
But yeah it really does look more stealth.

Handling is much better with a front-mounted pack. It dramatically improves balance (ever balance an upside-down broom on your finger?) and steering inputs don't need to get translated through the frame to a mid or rear-mounted pack. FYI, a high-mounted rear pack over a rear hubby will LIFT the front wheel in a hard turn over a loose surface and cause a fall.

The big front-mounted pack discussion tangent, where we figured out why it improves handling:
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=34230&start=90

Pics of the first front-mount Pelican build:
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=24329&start=30#p470443

Birth of the front-mounted pack as a handling improvement:
http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=12461&start=60#p281372

-JD

 

[Toorbough ULL-Zeveigh]

Birth of the front-mounted pack as a handling improvement

ahem, yes well his redbike having been born a year prior in 2009;

the good capn' James T. Beefheart could rightly claim that ES first.

For these purposes the main consideration would be the moment of inertia about the 3 axes, and of those, the roll axis is the most significant.

The relation between the mass distribution and the roll axis is what determines the moment of inertia. Hence all the discussion about where the roll axis is.

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5891&p=93326#p92978




if he just wasn't so gosh darn british & polite giving someone else credit for the idea.

the overall general rule still applies that if you concentrate the weight along an axis from the middle of the rear wheel to the top of the front wheel you are okay.

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=5891&start=435#p109855

 

[oatnet]

Birth of the front-mounted pack as a handling improvement

ahem, yes well his redbike having been born a year prior in 2009;
the good capn' James T. Beefheart could rightly claim that ES first.

Hey, thanks for pointing that out, I totally missed that thread and so far it has been a good read. Yep, per his website, he built that frame 5 days before the July 27th 2009 Presteigne race, 6+ months before my first front-pack ride in January 2010, 7+ months before I resolved the last of the issues with a hard mount and felt confident enough of my findings to publish. I admire that he preceded Gensem by mounted batteries to the front frame instead of the stanchions, something I have thought a lot about but have not endeavoured to achieve. To be fair, neither of us was the first to front-mount a load on a bicycle, delivery bikes have done that for a century, and people on E:S have had batteries sloshing around in front baskets before.

However, I claim to be the first to identify front-mount as a handling improvement and share that with the E:S community. Tiberius dicusses general theory in the 2008 links you included, and demonstrates a level of insight/knowledge that far exceeds mine, but I don't see a build thread for his red bike, or any specific recommendations to use front-packs to improve handling on hubbies. I think I am the first to document it as a preferred solution for street bikes, and I spent 2 years specifically evangalizing the front pack as a handling improvement, taking a lot of flack from skeptics, investing a lot of time educating nay-sayers, before people really started to catch on to the benefits and run with it.

Wow, this picture is exactly what I have been visualizing, but to describe my theory of the problem with heavy rear-rack mounted packs over a rear hubbie. I see that grean bar as a potential axis of rotation that runs between the heavy mass of a hub motor and the control input at the handlebars. When you lean into a turn, the rear-rack batt transitions from being over the wheel track, to being way inside the track. Gravity pulls on the rear battery, generating forces that make the bike want to rotate around the hub-handlebar axis. On a loose surface, those forces can be enough to lift the front wheel.

After a fall during a mild turn, when I was trying to figure out and describe what happened, I came up with this theory. I had ridden the same course many times on a Tidalforce IO cruiser with a front-hub battery and never had a problem. One day I removed the front hub battery and replaced it with a big pack on a rear rack. It felt fine for most of the course, until I fell on the first turn with a loose surface. I was off the throttle like I always do for that turn, but as I leaned lightly into it, the front wheel lifted. An image of the fall is burned into my brain, watching in amazement as the front wheel rose above the plane of the frame as I rotated around the hub-handlebar axis. The rear wheel stayed planted, the hub-handlebar axis stayed pretty much in place, but I went straight down on my side and the front wheel went straight up in the air.

It really shook me up. I spent a long time trying to explain the fall, thinking about the sensation I had of rotating around the hub-handlebar axis, wondering why the front wheel stayed planted when I used a hub battery, but lifted when I went to a rear battery. I started asking other people about their falls, and noticed a trend of people with rear-mounted packs falling on turns with loose surfaces. To test the theory I bunjied a pack I was building to the handlebars, and I could tell the front wheel was now planted much better on turns. By the time I had hard-mounted the pack to eliminate slop, I had also noticed that the steering was more refined, precise/solid feeling, than a rear or mid-mount pack. I also noticed I was making smaller inputs through turns, I had to dial my reactions way back, and the more weight I took off the back the more precise the steering feel. That is when I decided I should start warning people about rear-rack packs, and educating hubbie street riders on the handling benefits of a front pack.

Anyhow, snow I apologize for taking your thread on a tangent, and I'm still digging the stealth of your build :

 

[pendragon8000]

This weight distribution has me thinking. Its really interesting.
Weight at front helps vehicles keep there direction.
And weight down low is normally more stable. But I think I see the point about the steer tube rear axle axis. If the weight was low and not forward enough the front wheel would under-steer.? So what would the theoritical effect be of c of g being same place on the forward and dimension but weight lower or higher at the front?
Weight over the steer tube pulls the handle bars to the ground when cornering? And weight under pulls handle bars up?

 

[sn0wchyld]

Birth of the front-mounted pack as a handling improvement

ahem, yes well his redbike having been born a year prior in 2009;
the good capn' James T. Beefheart could rightly claim that ES first.

Hey, thanks for pointing that out, I totally missed that thread and so far it has been a good read. Yep, per his website, he built that frame 5 days before the July 27th 2009 Presteigne race, 6+ months before my first front-pack ride in January 2010, 7+ months before I resolved the last of the issues with a hard mount and felt confident enough of my findings to publish. I admire that he preceded Gensem by mounted batteries to the front frame instead of the stanchions, something I have thought a lot about but have not endeavoured to achieve. To be fair, neither of us was the first to front-mount a load on a bicycle, delivery bikes have done that for a century, and people on E:S have had batteries sloshing around in front baskets before.

However, I claim to be the first to identify front-mount as a handling improvement and share that with the E:S community. Tiberius dicusses general theory in the 2008 links you included, and demonstrates a level of insight/knowledge that far exceeds mine, but I don't see a build thread for his red bike, or any specific recommendations to use front-packs to improve handling on hubbies. I think I am the first to document it as a preferred solution for street bikes, and I spent 2 years specifically evangalizing the front pack as a handling improvement, taking a lot of flack from skeptics, investing a lot of time educating nay-sayers, before people really started to catch on to the benefits and run with it.

Wow, this picture is exactly what I have been visualizing, but to describe my theory of the problem with heavy rear-rack mounted packs over a rear hubbie. I see that grean bar as a potential axis of rotation that runs between the heavy mass of a hub motor and the control input at the handlebars. When you lean into a turn, the rear-rack batt transitions from being over the wheel track, to being way inside the track. Gravity pulls on the rear battery, generating forces that make the bike want to rotate around the hub-handlebar axis. On a loose surface, those forces can be enough to lift the front wheel.

After a fall during a mild turn, when I was trying to figure out and describe what happened, I came up with this theory. I had ridden the same course many times on a Tidalforce IO cruiser with a front-hub battery and never had a problem. One day I removed the front hub battery and replaced it with a big pack on a rear rack. It felt fine for most of the course, until I fell on the first turn with a loose surface. I was off the throttle like I always do for that turn, but as I leaned lightly into it, the front wheel lifted. An image of the fall is burned into my brain, watching in amazement as the front wheel rose above the plane of the frame as I rotated around the hub-handlebar axis. The rear wheel stayed planted, the hub-handlebar axis stayed pretty much in place, but I went straight down on my side and the front wheel went straight up in the air.

It really shook me up. I spent a long time trying to explain the fall, thinking about the sensation I had of rotating around the hub-handlebar axis, wondering why the front wheel stayed planted when I used a hub battery, but lifted when I went to a rear battery. I started asking other people about their falls, and noticed a trend of people with rear-mounted packs falling on turns with loose surfaces. To test the theory I bunjied a pack I was building to the handlebars, and I could tell the front wheel was now planted much better on turns. By the time I had hard-mounted the pack to eliminate slop, I had also noticed that the steering was more refined, precise/solid feeling, than a rear or mid-mount pack. I also noticed I was making smaller inputs through turns, I had to dial my reactions way back, and the more weight I took off the back the more precise the steering feel. That is when I decided I should start warning people about rear-rack packs, and educating hubbie street riders on the handling benefits of a front pack.

Anyhow, snow I apologize for taking your thread on a tangent, and I'm still digging the stealth of your build :

haha no stress mate. 'tis true what you say... even my old man (a avid motorcyclist from way back) still thought the front mounted pack would hamper handling, but it really helps the overall balance of the bike - you cirtainly dont notice it after about 5-10km'h or so

Yeah looks good man. hows the handling with weight up on bars/forks? is this mainly a comuter for now?
But yeah it really does look more stealth.
You finished exams or what?

yea mainly a commuter. which is why i regret taking it offroad recently... the removal of the eyelets has really helped to prevent the spokes from breaking off at the nipple due to the nipple being unable to allign itself well with the main body of the spoke, resulting in a sharp bend right at the start of the threaded part of the spoke. so much so infact that I managed to pull 7 spokes right through the spoke flange holes, washers and all! the wheel was so unblanced that riding it even at a walking pace was impossible. happened mainly due to very high torque loadings climbing the trails near my house. So...


ITS BLODY UP ON BRICKS AGAIN!!

Hi snow, your build is looking great, nice job with the Pelican. Did you use a velcro mount instead of the hard-mount clamps so you could easily remove it?

-JD

yep, that and there wasnt enough room inside to fit a bolt head. its that tight... 24s 8ah with enough space for all the paralleling/serising wires and a bit of tape to hold it all together. thats it, even 2mm of foam wouldn't fit now...

 

[deepfraught]

Use a heat gun on that case to soften it up enough in the desired spot then pressure mold it to relieve any space you need for custom oddities that won't comply, it cools and sets in doing so. Round ended wood broom stick a nice soft example, but (joke about someone's vibrator) most any blunt instrument would do the trick.

An old school BMX number plate could dress the bike up and distract from the case in a cool way. On my 2013 to-do list now.

 

[sn0wchyld]

well, I've now joined the KFF club...

I was hooking up my new 10ah pack to go for a short ride, and BANG, the connector blew up in my face. not totally sure what went wrong yet, but im guessing one of the caps in the controller has shorted. my thumb copped the worst of it, feels kinda burny at the moment. index finger too feels like ill have a blister, and ive got a mild case of welders eyes. Shit timing too, since I was planing another ride with pendragon this weekend...


the new pack on the bike. 24s 10ah. made of the same stuff used to make waterproof casts when people break limbs. tops covered with some thermal plastic (to hold all the wires in place when the lid's off) that becomes a taffy like liquid at about 70degC. DP connectors on the front are so I can quickly change it from a 24s 10ah pack to a 8s 30ah pack for charging.

Now for the carnage...






Ill keep running the hand under a tap periodically tonight, but doesn't feel too bad, kinda like a really bad case of sunburn on my fingers, though I can still use them to type... the missus however might not be so lucky...

haven't checked the batteries, though i imagine they're ok, was just the flash which fortunately destroyed half the connectors so they were only shorted for a moment. Controller may be stuffed though... will have to open it up at some point.