Re: infineon 18 fets''houston wii have a problem'' (updated)

[lifepo4ever]

i think for now i have a good cooling

 

[John in CR]

If you have a 9C then you should not be trying to find out how to mod your controller to get 100A.

 

[Ariane]

9c is very limited compare to x5 potential you never can get 20-25kw

I like to correct this misunderstanding that i saw on many post everywhere on ES about 20-25 KW of power. Guys 25 KW of power is around 33 HP no X5 can deliver this in the real world. You still don't believe me simple put a dyno on this rear wheel and give me the result please and you can see that your are really far from this 33 HP.

I have ride a "limited" 22 KW, 195 pound Motorcycle, with Konions battery pack (allot of sag) and an Agni 95 R motor. With a motorcycle like this one you can pass Doc DH ebike from any dead stop until top speed at 84 Volt and you can stay at the speed until your battery is discharge also you don't have to be worried about the 135 degrees C of the motor.

Any ebike with a real 25 KW of power will just kick you on your butt period. Seeing a peak at 250 Amps for 2 seconds at 100 Volt is one thing but true power of 25 KW is another.

If you still feel skeptical about power output from an 9C just ask Methods about what hub motor he refer in term of power and cooling!.

Also like i have said previously (2) 9C motor on 26" wheel and you pass most of the Car like Doc did and can pass Doc also. Simply because theses (2) motor will work as a team, they share the load and the heat is considerably reduced on each of them, to To do the same job any single X5 of your choice has allot of power to dissipate and it just can't do it for too long.

Good day!
Black Arrow

 

[lifepo4ever]

If you have a 9C then you should not be trying to find out how to mod your controller to get 100A.

and why ? my old crystalyte was about 80amp of current and rode my bike like that for about 9 month including winter, and recently i open up my 9c and there not trace of burn and look like new condition , when say say i need power i use it for about fews second until i reach my top speed and after I reduce my speed by half and barbecue sensor drop slowly i always look the temp and never go over 100 degres

i also use a gel named rust cure and reduce the heat a lot and also prevent corrosion it stick to the metal and stay firm even at high temperature

there another product named lucas that reduce heat and very good I already use it in my car tranny i want to try but not sure if good for electrical purpose

 

[Anonymous]

I am building this exact same setup but with twin 9c on 18 fet controllers for a friend. It is logical that They share the load between them and accelerate an ebike much faster than a single hub motor can (come on, 2wd!)
My only worry now is cost, I have spent 150euros on a downhill bike, $420 on controllers, and now...well.. i have to spend additional 400euros on two 9c motors... my total cost reached $1200 on building this...and I still need a battery and single cell charger (voltphreaks) chargers are $250 and battery, who knows, it is unerstandable my friend's not happy

If you have a 9C then you should not be trying to find out how to mod your controller to get 100A.

and why ? my old crystalyte was about 80amp of current and rode my bike like that for about 9 month including winter, and recently i open up my 9c and there not trace of burn and look like new condition , when say say i need power i use it for about fews second until i reach my top speed and after I reduce my speed by half and barbecue sensor drop slowly i always look the temp and never go over 100 degres

i also use a gel named rust cure and reduce the heat a lot and also prevent corrosion it stick to the metal and stay firm even at high temperature

there another product named lucas that reduce heat and very good I already use it in my car tranny i want to try but not sure if good for electrical purpose

 

[lifepo4ever]

I am building this exact same setup but with twin 9c on 18 fet controllers for a friend. It is logical that They share the load between them and accelerate an ebike much faster than a single hub motor can (come on, 2wd!)
My only worry now is cost, I have spent 150euros on a downhill bike, $420 on controllers, and now...well.. i have to spend additional 400euros on two 9c motors... my total cost reached $1200 on building this...and I still need a battery and single cell charger (voltphreaks) chargers are $250 and battery, who knows, it is unerstandable my friend's not happy

If you have a 9C then you should not be trying to find out how to mod your controller to get 100A.

and why ? my old crystalyte was about 80amp of current and rode my bike like that for about 9 month including winter, and recently i open up my 9c and there not trace of burn and look like new condition , when say say i need power i use it for about fews second until i reach my top speed and after I reduce my speed by half and barbecue sensor drop slowly i always look the temp and never go over 100 degres

i also use a gel named rust cure and reduce the heat a lot and also prevent corrosion it stick to the metal and stay firm even at high temperature

there another product named lucas that reduce heat and very good I already use it in my car tranny i want to try but not sure if good for electrical purpose

well i hope you don't have problem with the controllers , methods know more then me about this its a cool project but 2 motor mean double the power but also you need double the capacity of the battery to have the same range as a single motor

 

[texaspyro]

there another product named lucas that reduce heat and very good I already use it in my car tranny

So, you lube trannies in your car?

 

[Ariane]

... but also you need double the capacity of the battery to have the same range as a single motor

Hi Guys,

Not really, if your run both motor at 10 KW with (2) different controller the total output power will be something like 20 KW of course (2) motors will consume a little bit more amps on flat road section but when you going up hills (2) motors are more efficient then single one at 20 KW, then you don't need to double your battery pack.

Novembersiera I think that your friend will appreciate his ebike don't worried its a cool project. :wink:

Good day!
Black Arrow

 

[lifepo4ever]

there another product named lucas that reduce heat and very good I already use it in my car tranny

So, you lube trannies in your car?

tranny not trannies :lol: :lol:

 

[lifepo4ever]

... but also you need double the capacity of the battery to have the same range as a single motor

Hi Guys,

Not really, if your run both motor at 10 KW with (2) different controller the total output power will be something like 20 KW of course (2) motors will consume a little bit more amps on flat road section but when you going up hills (2) motors are more efficient then single one at 20 KW, then you don't need to double your battery pack.

Novembersiera I think that your friend will appreciate his ebike don't worried its a cool project. :wink:

Good day!
Black Arrow[/quote

Methods as the answer because he already do this set up

 

[Anonymous]

Methods is back on the forums again, i read most of that thread, his 9c gave up before his 18 fet did....
18 fets held out for over 10,000 miles on the builds on youtube, 10,000 miles is a lot of miles to do on an ebike..... the FETS will be fine, we won't push them at 100amperes all the time! and if we will, we'll rebuild, sell out, and mod 36 fets! let's see the power then

... but also you need double the capacity of the battery to have the same range as a single motor

Methods as the answer because he already do this set up

 

[lifepo4ever]

and 2 x 9c at 10kw peak set up its maybe more efficient of distributing power but you still have only 10kw of acceleration so a 20kw peak set up will eat you on a drag race

 

[Anonymous]

on acceleration? 2wd 9c would eat x5 alive, double rubber burning etc... I think we need a race to settle this once and for all

and 2 x 9c at 10kw peak set up its maybe more efficient of distributing power but you still have only 10kw of acceleration so a 20kw peak set up will eat you on a drag race

 

[Ariane]

and 2 x 9c at 10kw peak set up its maybe more efficient of distributing power but you still have only 10kw of acceleration so a 20kw peak set up will eat you on a drag race

Come on Roger,

Are you serious or you just kidding me ?, think about it for one second, 20 KW of acceleration is still 20 KW no matter what you distribute this power to the wheels right?

Like Novembersiera said each 10 KW motors will acceleration faster because they have twice the grip on any road and spin less then a single 20 KW with less efficiency motors, when you try to move forward its a physical law.

Don't forget that (2) motors will share the load, they are more efficient, less losses in heat and the will kick you out and they leave you in the dust for sure

20-25 KW of power trough any X5 is a Myth and nothing else. Can you show me a dyno at 33 HP with an X5 of your choice, the short answer is no because that didn't exist.

Good day!
Black Arrow.

 

[lifepo4ever]

i am not talking about 9c vs x5 (no difference anyway except the count turn of the motor need to be equivalent ) my example if we take both the same brand of motor and same model and same bike and battery , ok more grip yes with two wheel i agree for fews feet you will have if the tire spin advantage but once you reach your 10kw peak i past you in the dust because your still only have 10kw of power peak from your controller and mine is tune to 20kw , so this determine your ouput power and speed .

do the math again you need hp to produce power , weigth power ratio always win

 

[Ariane]

i am not talking about 9c vs x5 (no difference anyway except the count turn of the motor need to be equivalent ) my example if we take both the same brand of motor and same model and same bike and battery , ok more grip yes with two wheel i agree for fews feet you will have if the tire spin advantage but once you reach your 10kw peak i past you in the dust because your still only have 10kw of power peak from your controller and mine is tune to 20kw , so this determine your ouput power and speed .

do the math again you need hp to produce power , weigth power ratio always win

Simple math, you pretend that a single 300 HP is motor is more power full than (2) 150 HP motors for the same weight on bench

For me (2) 4 Hp motors is the same has big 8 HP motor on a bench and if we do the math 4 HP X 2 =8 HP is simple math for sure.

Doctorbass as allot of power on his ebike but this ebike is able to do 0-70 Km/h in 5 second not bad but Novembersierra has less power on his ebike and this ebike is able to do 0-94 Km/h in 6 second with less power.

We both know that Acceleration is base on weight/power ratio and both bikes weight about the same; can you explain why Novembierra with less HP can smoke Doctorbass ebike?

Roger please goes to ebike.ca and use this simulator then chooses customer value:

A single X5303 running at 100 Volt with 250 Amps gives 6100 Watts peak with 230 Nm of torque.

A single 9C 2806 running at 100 Volt with 100 Amps give 4500 Watts peak with 185 Nm of torque.

The combined power output (4500 X 2=9000 Watts), hp (12 HP) and torque (185 x 2=370 Nm) is higher than a single X5 and you still believe that you can smoke this ebike ?

Good day!
Black Arrow

 

[lifepo4ever]

you will see your math when the set up will be finish to proof that i hope you not taking the ebike.ca simulator for real because I bougth 2 diferent motor and i never have the same result in real life and very far from it if you want a good simulator search on the ES forum there one i use it here and it very good all the data are exact as my real set up

just look at the top speed of all the motors in the simulator of ebike.ca they are all wrong

with my bike simulator on ES I can calculate almost everything also the range of the battery and they are about a 2 miles of difference with my real set up

try it you will see the real speed and give you also the acceleration

 

[John in CR]

Black Arrow, you've explained very well exactly why I believe that the winning combo for a race ebike is a 2wd rig instead of a single high power hubby. In addition it also gives you almost twice the cooling capacity, so for the same power output the system can operate under less stress. Operating near the limits is just begging for a DNF, which is no better than last place, though some think that failures deserve an honor badge. :lol:

John

 

[Ariane]

... try it you will see the real speed and give you also the acceleration

I don't have to do it Novembersierra will try it, but I'm really curious to see your face with this X5 set up and how you will regret this move and please can you test this power full X5 on dyno because I'm really curious to see 33 HP on this rear wheel , thank you! :lol: :lol: :lol:

Good day!
Black Arrow

 

[Ariane]

Black Arrow, you've explained very well exactly why I believe that the winning combo for a race ebike is a 2wd rig instead of a single high power hubby. In addition it also gives you almost twice the cooling capacity, so for the same power output the system can operate under less stress. Operating near the limits is just begging for a DNF, which is no better than last place, though some think that failures deserve an honor badge. :lol:

John

John you read my mind once again my friend, and as far as know your are the only Hubby man who can ride an ebike at 80 Km/h and over until the battery pack is discharge no X5 or single 9C can do it until today!. :wink:

Good day!
Black Arrow

 

[Anonymous]

I was toying with the iea of first building a twin 5305 setup, front and rear...to run on 100volts...but the setup was so heavy, i counted it would be over 55kg of kit.

....9c is quite powerful, I think, twin setup overvolted is super for low cost.
but is it really going to be all that powerful compared with...
A twin x5305 setup, with twin kelly 300amp controllers, 200volts of nano lipo 10ah, and a really fat motorcycle tyre on a specialized downhill frame...all bolted onto freakishly strong triple clamp forks or xr80 forks / 12mm thick dropouts.

that's going to be fast, it's 4-5grand worth of kit...is it worth it? yes will it break chains? no. why? it's direct drive. it will probably twist the axial though

you will see your math when the set up will be finish to proof that i hope you not taking the ebike.ca simulator for real because I
try it you will see the real speed and give you also the acceleration

 

[Ariane]

I was toying with the iea of first building a twin 5305 setup, front and rear...to run on 100volts...but the setup was so heavy, i counted it would be over 55kg of kit.

....9c is quite powerful, I think, twin setup overvolted is super for low cost.
but is it really going to be all that powerful compared with...
A twin x5305 setup, with twin kelly 300amp controllers, 200volts of nano lipo 10ah, and a really fat motorcycle tyre on a specialized downhill frame...all bolted onto freakishly strong triple clamp forks or xr80 forks / 12mm thick dropouts.

that's going to be fast, it's 4-5grand worth of kit...is it worth it? yes will it break chains? no. why? it's direct drive. it will probably twist the axial though

you will see your math when the set up will be finish to proof that i hope you not taking the ebike.ca simulator for real because I
try it you will see the real speed and give you also the acceleration

Novembersierra,

I have an idea for you instead of using dual X5, just use (2) Agni 95 R motor at 96 Volt (each) with Nano Lipo on a custom ebike frame of course you can put a biggertire on the rear wheel for a sort of drag ebike. And i'm really confident that you got something like 70 HP (real) on the rear wheel with a dyno test 8) that's serious power and now we are talking

Good day!
Black Arrow

 

[Anonymous]

Believe me, I would if it would be efficient (if I could get 200km like DocB did, out of twin agni's, I would.
5305 is a very efficient motor, the 9c is a little bit more efficient but less powerful, either one is a pretty good choice.
in the case of the twin 5305 the parts can be easily sold onwards, I don't want to face up to the possibility of selling it all for 1/5th of the price, in fact, the twin 9c would be a blitzer.
For now I am following methods route for the thrill ride, it is the next level after the 2wd > etek
actually, correctly phrasing it, 'my' etek is slow, the insane-a-cycle with motorcycle chain on the hub and 450amp controller with 0 ramp is probably as fast as the 2wd kit. But you have to change the chain every 500 miles :\

we will see what else can be built.

I was toying with the iea of first building a twin 5305 setup, front and rear...to run on 100volts...but the setup was so heavy, i counted it would be over 55kg of kit.
I have an idea for you instead of using dual X5, just use (2) Agni 95 R motor at 96 Volt (each) with Nano Lipo on a custom ebike frame of course you can put a biggertire on the rear wheel for a sort of drag ebike. And i'm really confident that you got something like 70 HP (real) on the rear wheel with a dyno test 8) that's serious power and now we are talking

Good day!
Black Arrow

 

[Doctorbass]

Roger,

A single 750W nominal motor that you put 10 kW into it is not runing on his best efficiency at 10KW since it is generating more heat and less mecanical output.

Now let say you put 20kW into that same motor... You get alot more heat !.. and the efficiency is certainly lower than at 750W or 10kW.

Sumarry: using two 750W motor at 10kWeach is more efficient than a single 750W motor at 20kW.

same for loudspeakers... you can put 1000W into a 100W subwoofer but the dB output will not follow the ratio of the power gain due to saturation and heat.


BUT two motor and two controller weight more than a single motor and single controller... and X5 + controller are 30 pounds..if you take accont of the wires weight... so depending on the running conditions.. that added weight might cancel the efficiency gain of using two motor...

I never tried that..

But something i know is that puting 10kW on a front motor fork IS RISKY !!!.. eventhough you have the strongest torque arm!!.. a front fork is not made to handle pulling force !

Conclusion.. one is better than two and vice versa.

Doc

Doc

 

[Doctorbass]

Want to make a powerfull two wheel machine?.. Why dont you try a motorcycle?

dual AGNI + dual 300A 200V controller + 200V of lipo for at least 10Ah ARE REALLY HEAVY for a single bicycle frame!!!

Doc