Request For Ideas - Snow Traction system

[Hugues]

Hi guys,

so i got myself a Hanebrink All-terrain vehicle so that i can continue riding the trails during the winter.
Review in progress here:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=4&t=35072

Now, it's clear that i will need to add something around the tires in order to go uphill in the snow. I'm not talking ice here, but packed snow, a few inches of fresh snow or slush.
I attach a picture of the rear wheel below, tire size is 20x8.00-8. There is very small clearance between the tire wall and the chain/derailleur so i can only fit something on the flat part of the tire. Also, the rim has no openings to tie anything around the tire.

I was thinking about something i could strap around the circumference of the tire, a bit like the picture below, but without the cross of course. If i could find some metal "blades" that could sit on the tire, with little studs underneath to keep them in place, the studs would fit in the grooves of the tire. Two straps would go around the tire and through the base of the blades, then i would need some flat system to attach the strap and keep some tension in them.

Shouldn't be that difficult, especially with the help of a couple of ES brains

The best idea will win a free trial ride on the bike , but i won't be able to pay the trip to Switzerland

 

[Ykick]

I don't amount to half a brain but that's gonna be tough with the stock tire. Can you find/source a different size OD tire that fits that rim? Or, maybe a different rim/tire altogether that would allow for something to pass through the wheel and clear the chain/swingarm?

Perhaps ask Hanebrink what they've done to get a grip on hard pack snow?

 

[Hugues]

i wouldn't like to go to the extent of changing the wheel or tire.

I know Hanebrink have used chains. I can buy them I guess, they sell some for snow blower tires, similar in size. But chains are bulky and heavy and a PITA to install.

There must be something a bit smarter than chains....

 

[Alan B]

Paddle tires made for sand?

Screw in studs may work on frozen snow and ice.

 

[Hugues]

Paddle tires ?
mmm, did not know about this.
Could work, if I find the right size,
but from my home to the trails I need to ride on cleared paved roads for a while.
these tires must vibrate your brain out on paves roads !

 

[newb]

i wouldn't like to go to the extent of changing the wheel or tire.

i hear u but if u do here's my 2c

i grew up racing our atv's on frozen lakes and this is what we did (sheet metal screws) - would require a different tire - maybe having 2 sets of tires/rims (summer/winter) would be a way to go?

 

[LI-ghtcycle]

i wouldn't like to go to the extent of changing the wheel or tire.

i hear u but if u do here's my 2c

i grew up racing our atv's on frozen lakes and this is what we did (sheet metal screws) - would require a different tire - maybe having 2 sets of tires/rims (summer/winter) would be a way to go?

I'm with Newb.

Honestly, if you need that much traction to climb, you're going to need to compromise somewhere.

Personally I like the idea of a second set of tires that you put on when winter hits and keep on until things warm up reasonably enough that you shouldn't need them anymore, and then switch back to your original set of tires.

ANY kind of chains or other attachments are going to be a MUCH MUCH bigger headache than just swapping out tires/wheels (have a second set of wheels with the winter tire set-up on them) because they get loose, or slap around, and if you already have clearance issues, anything you attach to the outside is going to end up making you problems.

If you do get the sheet metal screws, or specific screws designed for the job (carbide) and you are going to be on pavement as often as on snow, be sure to alternate the stud pattern so your tire isn't just riding on the screws on the pavement, and then you can have best of both worlds, however, it's really impossible to have maximum traction on both snow/pavement, and if you want the best possible, just see what Hanbrink recommends for a good studded snow tire.

You have studded snow tires on your other E-Bike, why not on this one too?

If your handy and don't mind the time it takes, there are some pretty simple although extremely time consuming methods involving using zip-ties to attach short lengths of chain around the tire, but with your spoke-less wheels, that will be tricky.

Personally instead of trying to go to all the hassle of making something work, just buy something that already does. :wink:

 

[Geebee]

There is always the Ktrak, with a big enough motor could be fun

 

[DrkAngel]

Somewhere ... I have seen "tire chains" made from polyester rope ...

For snow I would have to recommend more.
Take front wheel, (or smaller "boggie" wheel), mount on a "live", springed rear axle, wrap both rear wheels with a - sidewalls removed winter tread tire.
Spread tires, to tension "tread"-track.
Add front ski - wallah!

 

[hydro-one]

+2 for newb my buddy recommends the sheet metal screws in alternate patterns like lightcycle seyz. he raced motorbikes on ice. i have yet to try it , after i learn to really ride ice, i will get them

 

[dogman dan]

You are going to just have to go to a knobby tire, such as typical on quad bikes. Should be able to find something. Won't work good on black ice without the screws, and pow will be a problem if too deep. But I see quad bikes on packed snow trails all the time. This far south, not many snowmobiles. But lots of quad bikes on the snowmobile trails running fine with knobbies once a snowmobile cuts the trail for em. Ski area employees use em on the ski slopes too, on the green trails.

You'd need more clearance than a 2 wheeler typically has to use chains I think. But it could be possible to adapt a pair of regular car cable chains if you have that much space. Might require the use of a skinnier tire? No point in that, just find some knobbies and then add studs if you have to.

 

[Drunkskunk]

Love those bikes. Those things go anywhere!

You could make "chains" out of blocks of hardwood and nylon rope. A block of wood, say 10 X 3 X 1 CM with a hole drilled in either end for the nylon rope to pass through,.
Easy enough if you have the time.

But ultimately, that tire just isn't suitable for snow. Chains would be a big compromise. You'd do far better on the hill with a proper tire for the conditions.

Paddle tires would be great, but all you really need is an open lug designed all terrain tire. you might even be able to use a tire trimmer and cut every other lug off the tires you have

 

[mabman]

Studs and spikes work well on ice but don't have as much effect on snow unless the snow is very hardpacked and crusty. What snowbikers like those that do the Iditibike in Alaska use is as wide a tire as possible at as low a pressure as possible for riding on snow and packed snow. Those tires look plenty wide and you should be able to run them at pretty low pressure. You might try carrying a pump and being able to regulate pressure while trying this method.

 

[Hugues]

Thanks for the input guys

I like the idea of tire grooving , Hanebrink mentioned it to me also.

I found this one online:
http://pmzracingproducts.com/tire_groover_1.html

Not sure what it's worth , never done that before, any input on that would be appreciated, is this difficult ? Any risk of screwing up the tire ? What shape should be the grooves ?

 

[Hugues]

I'm still working on this one.

Managed to ride properly in wet snow today with the current tire by deflating it, video here:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FLUAgxxzP10

but still thinking about adding some blades, across the tire at the back, like the drawing below, and longitudinal on the front one to get better steering.

I'll walk around at the local hardware store, i should be able to find some components and straps i can put together.

 

[John in CR]

Hanebrink doesn't sell their Antarctic "tire"??? That bike was originally designed as a pedal bike for the southernmost continent, so Mr. Hanebrink already solved the issue.

 

[Hugues]

Hanebrink doesn't sell their Antarctic "tire"??? That bike was originally designed as a pedal bike for the southernmost continent, so Mr. Hanebrink already solved the issue.

Hi John,

i think the tire i have is the one they used for that Antarctic trip, but Antarctica is rather..... flat compared to where i live.....and a bit colder.

So my problem is traction to go uphill, and something in front for better steering.

 

[Alan B]

Heathkit used to have a mini bike with a large lawn tractor tire on the rear and a ski attachment to go under the front tire. They used a chain on the rear tire as I recall for snow work. Not sure how well it worked since my parents would not allow me to have a minibike, and we had no snow. But it looked good in the catalog.

 

[Hugues]

i finally decided to build some traction device for the rear wheel,
bought some flexible metal stripes with holes, used 2 in parallel, about 2 inches apart,
they are linked with 8 metal plates across, picture below.

I tried it today, it has good traction but i did not manage to keep it attached to the wheel for long, it's sliding.
Video here:
[youtube]xjdixajCkqA[/youtube]


I tried to deflate the tire, then attached the device and inflated the tire so that pressure will keep the system very tight, it improved but still not good enough.

Maybe i should install the stripes even more on the side of the tire, where it's curved, this way it might prevent it from sliding.

Any suggestion to improve on the idea is welcomed

 

[Drunkskunk]

Cool Idea.

I'd replace the metal strips with rope, which will flex better with the tire. Then run wide loops over the sidewall, maybe joining them with a Bungi cord to keep it all centered.

 

[MadRhino]

 

[TonyReynolds]

Hughes, I know you seem to be trying to find a way to increase traction without damaging the tire, and this might be stupid, but how about running short sheetrock screws through the tread from the INSIDE of the tire and then using a second piece of inner tube as a tire-liner to keep the screw heads from popping the main tube? In the spring the screws could be removes and the tread would probably be none the worse for the wear. Alternately, you could use pop-rivets, but that would mean drilling the tread.

 

[LI-ghtcycle]

All you need to keep them on is some form of a loop made of bungie material that will keep constant tension, and zip ties to attach to your strips like this:

As a bonus, align the zip ties so that the ends stick out at the edges of the tire to increase traction.

*** EDIT *** you will need one on each side of the tire, and the loop can be larger and closer to the edge of the tread if needed.