sabvoton controller vs adaptto max-E

[steven.b.watts]

Hey,

So i'm new to the DIY ebike builds.

I'm going to build an ebike. I already have a very expensive DJ/DH pedal bike, which I will harvest the majority of my parts from. Regarding the parts I cannot recycle, I am interested in getting these parts as they make it seem easiest:

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?t=61259

and these (there are some missing from either source, but they are the same company. Just not thorough enough in their advertising apparently):

http://www.vectorebike.com/uprgade.html

So how did this guy (https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=9&t=73461#p1108954) make his so much faster? Is it worth getting the more expensive motor and controller that he got? Are they as easy to install? I noticed he uses the frame and battery that Vector offers, just an upgraded/outsourced controller, motor, and dashboard.

Thanks everyone

 

[ccmdr]

Tbh you have to be quite specific for the application of this e-bike build i.e speed, hill climb ability, charging needs etc...

Have you used the sim to work out the voltage/amp/motor/wheel size/weight required for your desired application?

The Adaptto setup as a whole is very user friendly. You really need to pros/cons the controllers for total outlay and ability. The BMS and coil charging setup for a commuter was my sales point for example, I can buck charge my 26S 20Ah battery from 1200W used in 1 hour. WIth the Sabv and seperate BMS and a very pricey 1000W BMSBattery charger, which they under-rate quite heavily for reliability, your looking at near on 3 hours charge.

The link you provided is for the bike kit sale is roughly correct via cromotor specs any cromotor at 80+v will get between 72-92kph. With the Adaptto setup you get and OVS feature which increases the speed further. My Mini-E will quite happily power a cro v3 to 74kph on 24" rims. Amps for acceleration, volts for speed, OVS for more speed.

 

[steven.b.watts]

Tbh you have to be quite specific for the application of this e-bike build i.e speed, hill climb ability, charging needs etc...

Have you used the sim to work out the voltage/amp/motor/wheel size/weight required for your desired application?

The Adaptto setup as a whole is very user friendly. You really need to pros/cons the controllers for total outlay and ability. The BMS and coil charging setup for a commuter was my sales point for example, I can buck charge my 26S 20Ah battery from 1200W used in 1 hour. WIth the Sabv and seperate BMS and a very pricey 1000W BMSBattery charger, which they under-rate quite heavily for reliability, your looking at near on 3 hours charge.

The link you provided is for the bike kit sale is roughly correct via cromotor specs any cromotor at 80+v will get between 72-92kph. With the Adaptto setup you get and OVS feature which increases the speed further. My Mini-E will quite happily power a cro v3 to 74kph on 24" rims. Amps for acceleration, volts for speed, OVS for more speed.

My intended applications for this build are as follows, in order of importance:

1. Acceleration
2. Speed
3. Charge
4. Hill climb ability

I would like to have the first 3, but I understand there may need to be a compromise. The hill climb ability is totally irrelevant as I will not be climbing any hills. Acceleration is my main goal.

I checked out that link to the simulator. I do not see any of the components I would be purchasing in their available selections. I also wouldn't really know how to interpret the results, but i'm could probably figure it out by reading the bottom half of the page/link.

I'm a University student, under these circumstances it is unfortunate I am not taking physics or any kind of science (I'm a business student). I suppose the fact that math comes naturally to me will work in my favor here.

What is a buck charge?

When you state times for charge, is that how fast the battery charges, or how long the battery lasts?

Is the CroMotor V3 (found in the link you shared - HubZilla) the same as the QS V3 (found in the link I shared - offered by vectorbikes)?

What's OVS?

I'm using 24" rims

I read some things about not needing BMS with some sort of new Adappto? Here, near the bottom of the page: https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=41682&start=2350

Also, is the CroMotor v2 the best for acceleration? I've heard there are a few other rivals out there, like the MXUS 4T, but I read here (https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=67357) that the CroMotor v2 is superior (unless you're looking for an extra 3mph... insignificant)

 

[ccmdr]

You have to be quite careful in the component selection and once you've twigged the ebike sim it'll become a place you spend plenty of time.

Also, one mans version of acceleration and speed is different from the next, i.e i've clocked 40,000 miles on a fireblade and 17,000 on a KTM 690. So a Mini-E maybe good for day to day long distance usage vs a Max-E for the WOT loon . Depends how your intending to treat your battery/motor.

If your just looking for the occasional squirt a 1500w Leafmotor or HS3540 would be fine. Mid range Mxus or if your a 'larger' fellow or want that extra torque and heat soaking ability maybe a QS or premium Crov3. Also, Cro and QS v3 are quite different, there is a post on it here in ES. On the sim after selecting "show all' on the motor selection the Mxus range is quite helpful in deciding torque vs speed find the Kv of the motor you intend to use and it can be used as a 'rough' guideline. Adaptto controller needs manual input of 160Amp and 0.003ohms. Use the System B function and compare the NM/speed whilst adjusting the voltage/throttle position/rim size. Use the moveable dotted vertical line to show acceleration at various speeds. I guess atm the 'best' performance would be the fast wind QS in a 16/17 inch rim with a Max-E running 22S.

Buck charge is something to be googled, but it utilizes a power supply over 12v but below the batteries discharged voltage to charge the system. Meaning you can use a server PSU at 53.7v at 30A if you get the 30A coil for charging thats much quicker than standard CC/CV chargers.

OVS is overspeed which is magic in function, but I believe it increases the phase lead angle so the motor is chasing/repelling the phase faster but at a loss of torque utilized at nominal motor AMP usage.

Running a BMS is the safest way to look after your 'expensive' battery pack. The Adaptto BMS is very intuitive.

Cost generally comes into the equation at some point and you have to work out where your going to skimp, motor/controller or battery.

 

[steven.b.watts]

Thanks, I'll spend quite a bit of time figuring it out haha

I raced MX for a couple of years, on a crf450r, but I lost my license so now I need to find a new way to let out the demon. I'm trying to build the 'best'/fastest ebike possible, and acceleration seems to be where I enjoy the ride the most so that's why I ranked it #1. Also, it doesn't seem like I will be able to go full speed the majority of the time, but I will be accelerating consistently through out my rides.

So you're saying the 'best' performance is all available through vector

Battery: Battery 22S 10p Samsung 20R, 1.6kWh, 81.4V 20Ah, 8AWG wires, 4s balancing plugs (plug and play with Adaptto BMS and controller) - $749

Motor: QS v3 - $440

Controller: Adaptto MAX-E (do I need aditional BMS? or does this Adaptto include BMS as outlined in the thread I linked in my previous post?) - $745

Total ~$2000. Is this compromising in any component? Seems like a good price

Vector offers a 30A coil, and a 70A coil. I assume you're saying I should go with the 70A coil for fastest charging? Do I need anything else to charge the battery, or is the coil plug and play with their battery?

Thanks for all your help

 

[Marin]

Building and riding an illegal ebike on the road isn't going to help you with your DUI problem, you should figure into your build that it may be an off road only machine.

You could always make a street legal machine and take advantage of all the benefits of that. I'm not one to preach sorry for the rant.

 

[steven.b.watts]

Don't worry about me

 

[ccmdr]

Vector caters for your needs pretty much spot on in that case . You will need the BMS as it is a seperate entity to the controller package. As for the coil 30/70 it'll entirely depend on how many Amps your intended PSU can push out. Tbh the size from 70/30 doesn't make much difference and you'll easily fit the whole lot inside the frame, or mount the controller box unit in the vector underbelly shield which is extra.

With a Max-E/QS combo I imagine it'll feel close to a CRF450 too, up to around 35-40 mph. With Mini-E's my Cro setup frequently outperforms 50/125cc twist and go, cheaper to run and a damn sight more emission friendly! Although 2 stroke will always smell good !

If you do go that route the new 'heavy duty' sidestand they offer is so much better than the previous flimsy affair .

Marin does have a point, depending on how hot they are around your way a bike frame with a mid-drive is a more visually stealthy option although much louder than DD. Worth a gander at least to see some of the amazing projects some people here have created. Try looking up LMX, gotta love the lightweight mid-drive design!

 

[steven.b.watts]

Vector caters for your needs pretty much spot on in that case . You will need the BMS as it is a seperate entity to the controller package. As for the coil 30/70 it'll entirely depend on how many Amps your intended PSU can push out. Tbh the size from 70/30 doesn't make much difference and you'll easily fit the whole lot inside the frame, or mount the controller box unit in the vector underbelly shield which is extra.

With a Max-E/QS combo I imagine it'll feel close to a CRF450 too, up to around 35-40 mph. With Mini-E's my Cro setup frequently outperforms 50/125cc twist and go, cheaper to run and a damn sight more emission friendly! Although 2 stroke will always smell good !

If you do go that route the new 'heavy duty' sidestand they offer is so much better than the previous flimsy affair .

Marin does have a point, depending on how hot they are around your way a bike frame with a mid-drive is a more visually stealthy option although much louder than DD. Worth a gander at least to see some of the amazing projects some people here have created. Try looking up LMX, gotta love the lightweight mid-drive design!

What's a PSU?

thanks for all that info. If it is in fact that fast I will be very happy!

So does anyone know how the bike linked in the initial post was able to go so much faster?

 

[macribs]

PSU = Power Supply Unit. If you have Adaptto controller, adaptto BMS and their coil you can use a PSU from a server to charge your battery pack. You can charge faster then regular Li ion chargers. IIRC this is what is know as buck charge.

You ask difficult question, which one is better. Better then what? I think it is up to you to determine what is your priority for the specific build your are starting. It seems you are valuing acceleration most. Well for that you need a powerful motor and a powerful controller. Is sabvaton better then Adaptto or the other way around? Hard to tell, they both can deliver more then 10 kw to the motor. Both have high phase current. I think you must see for your self what it is you would like to give priority then decide between them. Both of these controllers will lift your front wheel up, and give you plenty of acceleration.

You asked also what is OVS, it is a setting you can dial in the controller (if controller feature this) that will give you about 30% more top speed.

The bike you linked to in the very first post used a cro motor and a sabvaton controller. Motor can take 10+ peak kw, as well as the controller. But the same goes for adaptto max-e. It can deliver 14 kw peak power. You must decide if adaptto is worth the extra dollars. Remember that if you choose Adaptto you get a very user friendly setup, everything is controlled on the one display. When wired up you can just dial in the settings and everyday life is simple, as the BMS is integrated part of the controller.

AFAIK the QS v3 is not yet part of the simulator, but search for that motor in the forum and you will see several hi powered builds using that motor. If you have a 10kw + motor/controller combo and the right wheel you will make 80-100 km/h on the flat.

 

[steven.b.watts]

PSU = Power Supply Unit. If you have Adaptto controller, adaptto BMS and their coil you can use a PSU from a server to charge your battery pack. You can charge faster then regular Li ion chargers. IIRC this is what is know as buck charge.

You ask difficult question, which one is better. Better then what? I think it is up to you to determine what is your priority for the specific build your are starting. It seems you are valuing acceleration most. Well for that you need a powerful motor and a powerful controller. Is sabvaton better then Adaptto or the other way around? Hard to tell, they both can deliver more then 10 kw to the motor. Both have high phase current. I think you must see for your self what it is you would like to give priority then decide between them. Both of these controllers will lift your front wheel up, and give you plenty of acceleration.

You asked also what is OVS, it is a setting you can dial in the controller (if controller feature this) that will give you about 30% more top speed.

The bike you linked to in the very first post used a cro motor and a sabvaton controller. Motor can take 10+ peak kw, as well as the controller. But the same goes for adaptto max-e. It can deliver 14 kw peak power. You must decide if adaptto is worth the extra dollars. Remember that if you choose Adaptto you get a very user friendly setup, everything is controlled on the one display. When wired up you can just dial in the settings and everyday life is simple, as the BMS is integrated part of the controller.

AFAIK the QS v3 is not yet part of the simulator, but search for that motor in the forum and you will see several hi powered builds using that motor. If you have a 10kw + motor/controller combo and the right wheel you will make 80-100 km/h on the flat.

What kind of PSU will I need? My old ebike just uses a generic 60v charger that came with the compete bike (I didn't build it).

Is the coil that vector offers (found here) the same coil you are referring to?

As I mentioned before, which you referenced, 'which one is better for acceleration.'

Thank you everyone for your help. I think it is quite clear now that the best combination of parts is to stick to what Vector is offering: QS v3 motor, 22s battery, max-E controller.

You said the BMS is an integrated part of the adaptto controller, so if I get a max-E I don't need the BMS?

 

[macribs]

What kind of PSU will I need? My old ebike just uses a generic 60v charger that came with the compete bike (I didn't build it).

Is the coil that vector offers (found here) the same coil you are referring to?

As I mentioned before, which you referenced, 'which one is better for acceleration.'

Thank you everyone for your help. I think it is quite clear now that the best combination of parts is to stick to what Vector is offering: QS v3 motor, 22s battery, max-E controller.

You said the BMS is an integrated part of the adaptto controller, so if I get a max-E I don't need the BMS?

Any PSU lower voltage then your pack will work. Popular ones are smaller ones that can be mounted inside battery box, like the Eaton Allex sells. Yes the coil Vector sells are the same coil I mentioned. Be sure also to order the adaptto BMS board.

AFAIK there have been no tests of which controller gives the best acceleration of the two of them. Maybe others can fill you in on that part, if they have tested both of the controllers for them self.

 

[steven.b.watts]

Beautiful, thank you

 

[steven.b.watts]

So what could make this bike faster? I know a bigger just about anything would, but be practical. What is AVAILABLE that would make this bike faster? Would a bigger battery help? I found a potentially good deal on a "highly modified irfb4110 24 mosfet that will put out up to 20kw of power", and a "sabvoton 096150 controller avaliable, this will do up to 14kw+ of power output". How much of a difference would these make?

Also, I think I just realized you can wire up more than one controller to a bike to increase output, is that true? Is this the best way to increase output? I'm guessing that would require a much larger battery

Thanks

 

[macribs]

Also, I think I just realized you can wire up more than one controller to a bike to increase output, is that true? Is this the best way to increase output? I'm guessing that would require a much larger battery

Thanks

Yes you can wire up two controllers to one motor if you get yourself a 6 phase motor rather then a 3 phase that is the most common hubmotor.
Read up about hubmonster.

 

[ccmdr]

Hubmonster
[youtube]5bncSTzHwHo[/youtube]

 

[steven.b.watts]

Would getting a samsung 20s15p give me more power than the 22s10p I am going to get? If not, what would be the benefit to spending an extra 750 on this different battery?

I mentioned in my last post that the mofset is possible of 20kw output and that sabvoton is capable of 14kw output, how do I get these controllers to produce such a high output?

 

[ccmdr]

Power is Voltage * Amps a larger Ah battery doesn't give you more acceleration/speed it lets you 'move' for longer.

In fact what you've asked, is 20S (74v) faster than (81.4v), which is an obvious, no . Will 15 cell in parallel give your more battery 'power' as in Wh= watt hours then yes. So your 750 will get you 36% more wh capacity.

kw can be thought of as acceleration. More Controller amps = larger magnetic field = faster acceleration -although you can have a 10v100A=1000W vs 48v20.8A=1000W
kv can be thought of as speed. More Motor kv = full motor rotations per volt in one minute = faster top speed

Even if you run 90v through a mxus 3T (fast wind) at 50 mph your only using 5kw! Even on a 20% incline your only using 7.7kw! 20kw needs a motor that would normally be mounted into a car around 28cm in diameter!

I think until you ride a Max-E with OVS set high on a QS or Cro your not really going to understand just how fast 40+ on a bicycle is . Have you done minimoto racing before? Coz at 20-30 mph that low to the ground with 'adequete' brakes is fast!

Battery Voltage = Speed
Controller Amps = Acceleration
OVS = More Speed around 10-15%

So a couple examples:

10kw controller
36-94volts working range
10,000/94= 106 Amps

20kw controller
36-94volts working range
20,000/94= 212 Amps

So which one is faster?
Both have a maximum voltage range of 94volts (that's with a battery fully charged, to be on the safe side). So both can go the same mph with a motor that has the same kv. Your average motor is around 9kv so 9 rotations per volt in 1 minute. So at 94v thats 94*9=846rpm. But then you have to take into account motor efficiency..

Which one will accelerate harder?
The 20kw, because it can pump more amps into the coil creating a larger magnetic field. However, the larger BLDC hub motors we use like the QS and cro are rated at between 4-6kw. Try to imagine two balloons in a cup, inflate them at the same time. At some point both balloons start fighting each other for space. This is called in electric motor terms the 'saturation' point, because adding anymore air (amps) isnt going to make the balloons (electromagnetic field) any larger. Although in reality the hubs can take more wh, but they just get too hot very quickly.

 

[steven.b.watts]

Thank you! That is VERY useful information. It took me a while to understand it, but I am certainly getting there!

You mentioned in your last point that the 20kW controller will accelerate faster, but then added that a QS V3 hub would become "saturated" quickly. I will be using a QS V3 hub, so will a 20kW controller actually accelerate faster, or just blow my hub? Or both.... :|

I assume that if they're rated at 4-6kW, there's no point in using a 20kW controller because 6 is a smaller number than 20 lol sorry but i'm truly new to all of this so this is how I am perceiving a lot of information at this point. But then again, under the same assumption, 6 is still much smaller than 14, yet many people recommend Max-E 14kW controllers with QS hubs

Thanks

 

[macribs]

Thank you! That is VERY useful information. It took me a while to understand it, but I am certainly getting there!

You mentioned in your last point that the 20kW controller will accelerate faster, but then added that a QS V3 hub would become "saturated" quickly. I will be using a QS V3 hub, so will a 20kW controller actually accelerate faster, or just blow my hub? Or both.... :|

I assume that if they're rated at 4-6kW, there's no point in using a 20kW controller because 6 is a smaller number than 20 lol sorry but i'm truly new to all of this so this is how I am perceiving a lot of information at this point. But then again, under the same assumption, 6 is still much smaller than 14, yet many people recommend Max-E 14kW controllers with QS hubs

Thanks

Yes the controller with highest KW will accelerate the fastest. To avoid "blowing you hub" use the motors temp sensor and set motor temp limitations in the controller. That way the controller automatically throttles back when thermal limit of the motor is getting close. As the motor temp falls back to safe numbers you will again be able to ride at 100% throttle.

Well even if your motor is a 4-6kw motor the motor can and will deliver much more KW for short bursts. So bigger KW controller will accelerate you faster. If you have a 20kw controller you would hardly ever push the controller to its limits because motors thermal limits will be reached before saturation of motor forcing roll back on throttle. So less abuse of controller - which can be a good thing.

But for your practical first Q of this thread, I don't think there have been done a direct comparison between those two controllers. Both controllers will output around 12-14 kw hard to tell which is the fastest or with most acceleration.

 

[Merlin]

if you want to flip your bike, the "uncensored" Adappto Firmware will help you here.
the sabvotons accelerate good. But theres a "security" delay in the Software.

beside that: if you come in contact with Sheng, you can order a "special unit"...
since every sabvoton user know this 2,2Kg Package can handle 12KW without a sweat, theres room for 20Kw bursts if you want but not official.

didnt read everything, so if you order a Motor, go minimum for the 11KV one. If you didnt race up SanFrancisco hills, go for the 13KV one.
20s 200A will do the rest for 120kph

 

[steven.b.watts]

if you want to flip your bike, the "uncensored" Adappto Firmware will help you here.
the sabvotons accelerate good. But theres a "security" delay in the Software.

beside that: if you come in contact with Sheng, you can order a "special unit"...
since every sabvoton user know this 2,2Kg Package can handle 12KW without a sweat, theres room for 20Kw bursts if you want but not official.

didnt read everything, so if you order a Motor, go minimum for the 11KV one. If you didnt race up SanFrancisco hills, go for the 13KV one.
20s 200A will do the rest for 120kph

I was looking at a QS V3 which, from what I have read, is ~9kv. What kind of motors are 11kv or 13kv?

Where could I find a 20s 200a battery?
I assume this means I would need a 20kw controller, because 20,000w/94v=212A

 

[ccmdr]

Regarding the kv of the QS if you look halfway down the page Vito has a nice table showing the Turn count/kv of their motor .

Merlin is right in saying 20S 200A battery, but how it's interpreted as a 'C rating' (total amps discharge rate).

So a 20Ah cell with a 10C or more rating can output 200A = Battery Ah capacity * Battery discharge rate.
another example

Two 10Ah cells with 10C discharge rate, put them in paralell = 20Ah * 10C = 200A

Nose in the 'Battery Tech' section there is a whole new sub-level of battery/cell learning to be found .

If you want 20kw @ 20S you'll have to do some math and decide what battery chemistry your going to work with. Your working with 'nominal voltages so:
LiPo - HobbyKing type RC cells are 3.6-3.7v nominal @ 20S = 74v
LiFeP04 - Cellman,GWL/Wina or A123 trpe cells 3.2-3.3v nominal @20S = 64v
Li-Ion - 18650 type cells 3.6-3.7v nominal @ 20S = 74v

But then to get 20kw you need to make sure your chosen battery has a discharge C rating that match your desired power output.

If your running your controller at the Maximum 20 kw rating the battery and motor need to be able to handle that rate, otherwise the battery/motor will be damaged (likely fire and/or shorting), however if your motor and battery are more powerful than your controller then you don't need to worry as the controller will only draw and push as much as it's limited to.

 

[steven.b.watts]

Decided to go a completely different route, as I got a great deal on a mid-drive

 

[macribs]

You bought Sellicks gearbox bike? Solid. I am sure you will be very happy with that.
Did he ever get around to complete bike 100% or did he sell it with little work left to complete?

Make sure you show off your new toy when it arrives. I am certain you will have tons of fun. Bike is so lightweight, geared to tackle any climbing you dare try and you will probably spend a good portion of your rides on the rear wheel

Enjoy