Samsung 25R/LG 18650HE2/ Sony VTC5 high power 18650 battery

[madin88]

Some say the VTC5 is a LiNiMnCoO2 cell and other LiMnCo?

look at the links above. damptakkus.de has declared the VTC5 as "IMR" chemistry. This is LiNiMnCo.

For me the VTC5 is definitely the winner. This cell has the highest capacity and the lowest IR of this four cells in the test. Maybe it is the best one of all high power 18650 cells currently on the market. Cycle life also should be good if not treated at the limits and charged to <4,1V, discharged to >3,2V.

I have to figure out how good this chemistry really is for lifespan by watching the video again from tesla about cell tests.

 

[zener]

We would need someone who buys all three and makes ~100cycles with same conditions on them. To get comparable data.

Indeed we schould make a E-S standard for cycle testing of 18650 cells.

My idea would be:

LogView compatible charger. (iCharger ect.)
Temperatur 23*C no fast moving air and 5 minutes brake between charges and discharges.
-----------------------------------------------
9x charge to max the rated chargevoltage -0,1V (4,1V in this case) within 1 hour.
discharge @ 4A 80% of the Wh from a full charge 0.5C + discharge 1C cycle.
------- and 1 time from 10 a pulse discharge simulation or maybe 2 from 10?
1x harge to max the rated chargevoltage -0,1V (4,1V in this case) within 30 minutes.
discharge @ 10A 80% of the Wh from a full charge 0.5C + discharge 1C cycle.
-----------------------
1x full charge 0.5C +discharge 1C to messure the lost mAh

this 5x - 10x in a row with 5 minutes brakes.


Anyone who have one of this cells could share comparable data.

 

[zener]

Some say the VTC5 is a LiNiMnCoO2 cell and other LiMnCo?

look at the links above. damptakkus.de has declared the VTC5 as "IMR" chemistry. This is LiNiMnCo.

For me the VTC5 is definitely the winner. This cell has the highest capacity and the lowest IR of this four cells in the test. Maybe it is the best one of all high power 18650 cells currently on the market. Cycle life also should be good if not treated at the limits and charged to <4,1V, discharged to >3,2V.

I have to figure out how good this chemistry really is for lifespan by watching the video again from tesla about cell tests.

Ok, so they all 3 have the same chemisty.
The 25R and VTC5 seem to be on the same level. VTC5 have a little more Wh but the 25R is 5A max charge rated while VTC5 is 4A.
Damn i want to know how they compare after some cycles.

 

[district9prawn]

Indeed we schould make a E-S standard for cycle testing of 18650 cells.

When I was cycling a samsung 20q cell day and night, I could see the capacity going up and down with the temperature day and night. The difference in % isn't huge but I was surprised how noticeable on a graph. It is definitely something to consider when testing cells.

In the discharge graphs I've found online, the vtc5 is consistently well above 2500mah, while the LG cell often just edges past 2400.

Anyway, I've got a discharge graph for the LG 2500mah cell http://i.imgur.com/3NLbmBP.jpg

I don't think my connection to the cell was very good. No sense/balance lead was used and I measured an IR over 60 mohm. When I finished building the pack, I ran a discharge of the whole pack again from 4.2-2.5 for comparison, this time with the balance leads hooked up as well. I got about 50mah more than the 2365mah in the graph, and IR for each 6p block was between 2-5 mohm. Yes, yes I know the icharger IR readings are not particularly accurate but it seemed in the right ballpark so I was satisfied.

Soldering isn't much fun.

But duct tape is!

Thats one professional looking pack! :?

 

[grindz145]

Just judging by the datasheet (and honestly, from the fact that they are significantly cheaper) The HE2 cells don't appear to have as good of a cycle life. I haven't found cycle life data anywhere for the VTC5s, but I would imagine the VTC4s would last significantly longer, again, judging from the datasheet.

 

[skeetab5780]

Yikes, that pack looks a little sloppy. Some of those solder joints on the positive ends may end up shorting to the can. Lets hope it lasts long tho. That mesh-like wire looks like it absorbs too much solder/heat to bond fast enough to the cells.

 

[zener]

I would make a cycle comparison for all 3 if i get the money back either with donations before or i sell the results afterwards.
About 25Euro i would need to buy them as 1 pcs. If 4 people agree to donate me 5Euro i make it. :wink:

 

[district9prawn]

Yikes, that pack looks a little sloppy. Some of those solder joints on the positive ends may end up shorting to the can. Lets hope it lasts long tho. That mesh-like wire looks like it absorbs too much solder/heat to bond fast enough to the cells.

If anything is going to be shorting, I reckon it will be cells from different series groups chafing into each other through the shrink wrap. Hopefully masses of hot glue and cardboard stop that? I made a similar smaller pack with panasonic cells almost the same way and it has been fine for about a year. While I was soldering on a + terminal on a cell on the panasonic pack, my hand slipped and the tip of the iron burned through the shrink wrap and white plastic disc and shorted against the can, causing me to squeal like a girl Thankfully had none of that this time.

 

[madin88]

The 25R and VTC5 seem to be on the same level. VTC5 have a little more Wh but the 25R is 5A max charge rated while VTC5 is 4A.
Damn i want to know how they compare after some cycles.

The samsung 25R is on the same level with LG HE2. The Sony VTC5 is much better... :wink:
I very like the little voltage sag. this will give some more Wh under higher load.

anyone interested in a group buy? (i'm from europe austria)

 

[Ebikebert]

changed the title of the thread to include the Sony VTC5 cell. The VTC5 only seems like a good choice for me if you are building a very high power setup where you are drawing a significant amount of amps. For myself the 25R is more than enough. The VTC5 seem to also be slightly more expensive. You can call me a little biased against Sony cells because i had a horrible experience with some konion cells dying on me going to 0 volts for no apparant reason. I think we should still have someone physically compare the three to see for ourselves.

 

[zener]

The 25R and VTC5 seem to be on the same level. VTC5 have a little more Wh but the 25R is 5A max charge rated while VTC5 is 4A.
Damn i want to know how they compare after some cycles.

The samsung 25R is on the same level with LG HE2. The Sony VTC5 is much better... :wink:
I very like the little voltage sag. this will give some more Wh under higher load.

anyone interested in a group buy? (i'm from europe austria)

No!
I trust more real world tests than some manufacturer data sheets.
watch here http://www.dampfakkus.de/akkuvergleich.php?akku1=490&akku2=523&akku3=507&akku4=&akku5=&akku6=&a=5
The R25 even goes on top after 200 2secound samples. @5A
4A would be in my case the under worst condition maximum constant draw. 10A puls for starts and steep hills.
And we still dont know if the 0.1Wh the VTC5 have is there after 50 or 100 cycles. :wink:

 

[jk1]

With the cell chemsitry of the SonyVTC5 is the same or different to the Sony Konion cells that some people said did not need cell level balancing ?

Will the VTC5 also not need cell level balancing ? or say once per year balancing ?

 

[madin88]

With the cell chemsitry of the SonyVTC5 is the same or different to the Sony Konion cells that some people said did not need cell level balancing ?

Will the VTC5 also not need cell level balancing ? or say once per year balancing ?

The name "Konion" comes from the RC controller and motor manufacturer Kontronik from germany. They offered the first types of this sony 18650 high power cells (i think they had 1100mAh) for RC model use. Everyone who used this Konion cells said there is no need to balance them. Many even did not solder balancing wires to their packs.
These RC model battery packs normally built of 1p or 2p not much more, so no big mixed up cells. That was the case with the 1100mAh or later with 1600 cells, but i do not know if the actual cells do also behave that good. My VTC4 22s 9p pack currently does show me 2mV drift after about 30 cycles. This is nothing..
I think its not only about the chemistry, but more about the precise manufacturing process.
I would check cell volts every one or two weeks, but a bms is always good. Of course, even if you have a bms you are not protected against a dead cell which can drain the whole p-brick to 0V..

 

[Allex]

Ah thats where it came from! I remeber using a Kontornik motor in my RC heli. Good stuff but was super expensive at that time.

 

[docnjoj]

My Fatpacks with Sony VT are over 3 years old and still hold around 90% of their original capacity. I parallel them with a Ping pack for my wife's trike and she can out accelerate me going up a 4% hill. Yeah of course I weigh more but I'm also using A123 Amp 20s, not bad cells either.
I would use Sony's if I could get them at a reasonable price. I purchased my 10S2P Fatpacks for $45 apiece delivered and got 6 of them. Now they are about $150 apiece.
otherDoc

 

[sardini]

INTERESTING
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=55710

 

[cwah]

Are Sony VTC5, LG 18650HE2 and samsung 25R all NCA chemistry?

 

[cal3thousand]

INTERESTING
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=55710

VERY! thanks for sharing... Good thing i was already leaning towards the Sammy ICR line most likely the 25R.


Sony VTC5 are IMR (Manganese)

not sure about LG 18650HE2

 

[ecross]

Hi,

some ES members contact me via PM...... about the new high current cells from Sony, Samsung and LG....

When still interesting I can create a group buy for cells.

I told you into the past I have good contacts to some Germany Power-Tool builder and now I have some good pricings for the new cells look like about:
-for good pricing we need more then 1000pcs./Type!
-very different delivery times!

-Sony 1600 3,00
-Sony 2250 2,32
-Sony 2900 3,00
-Sony VTC4 2100 3,18
-Sony VTC5 2600 4,91

Samsung 25R 2500 3,47
LG HE2 2500 2,92

-these pricings are in Euro and without postage costs.
-please send PM for postage costs
-also for Welding tabs, solder points
-also for custom build packs with welding tabs or solder for high current..

BR
ecross

 

[babyhughie]

If anyone is making packs using these cells in the USA please let me know... If I had the know how and the tools to do so I could make a small fortune $$$$$... I would love to have a pack with these cells..

 

[nukezero]

Guys, I need to order some loose batteries to build a 13s4p pack (48v) for the triangle mount. I can only make a max of 52 cells inside it.

SO here's the kicker. I will be using a Bafang mid-drive 48v 750w and trying to sustain 30mph. In order to do that, that requires 1000watts, or in other words 20A continuous. Can anyone recommend me a battery of the three that have been described to go with?

Should I get the Samsung 25R, the LG HE2, or the Sony VTC5 ... and why?

Cost is not an issue.

Thanks

 

[cal3thousand]

Some say the VTC5 is a LiNiMnCoO2 cell and other LiMnCo?

look at the links above. damptakkus.de has declared the VTC5 as "IMR" chemistry. This is LiNiMnCo.

For me the VTC5 is definitely the winner. This cell has the highest capacity and the lowest IR of this four cells in the test. Maybe it is the best one of all high power 18650 cells currently on the market. Cycle life also should be good if not treated at the limits and charged to <4,1V, discharged to >3,2V.

I have to figure out how good this chemistry really is for lifespan by watching the video again from tesla about cell tests.

Ok, so they all 3 have the same chemisty.
The 25R and VTC5 seem to be on the same level. VTC5 have a little more Wh but the 25R is 5A max charge rated while VTC5 is 4A.
Damn i want to know how they compare after some cycles.

If the VTC5 is IMR then it is NOT the same as the 25R which are ICR.

the Samsungs are ICR, which have no Manganese

 

[Ebikebert]

@ nukezero Any of the batteries you listed will work. The 25R or HE2 have good power output @20A per cell the VTC5 has a little higher power output but for substantially more money. The 25R or HE2 will have more than enough power for your needs of 20A. Both the HE2 and 25R can give you 80A in a 4p configuration.

 

[migueralliart]

I would strongly suggest the 25R and if not available the sony.

The 20R's I got are still running strong and I wish the 25R was available back then. Go for em you won't be disappointed.

 

[nukezero]

@ nukezero Any of the batteries you listed will work. The 25R or HE2 have good power output @20A per cell the VTC5 has a little higher power output but for substantially more money. The 25R or HE2 will have more than enough power for your needs of 20A. Both the HE2 and 25R can give you 80A in a 4p configuration.

sounds good. now i need to find somebody to source the 25R from, buy the case, and have them do some spot welding?
then I need to buy a separate BMS...

question, if a battery is pre-welded with a tab, can you just solder the other open end to another bare top battery?

Time to order 56 pieces of 25R from supower111 on ebay. Then buy some tabs to solder them to. Oh, this will be fun...