Samsung INR18650-20R .. yes these cells can punch, new 24R

[footloose]

Ypedal Edit : .. I cleaned up content from page 7 of this thread, i would ask politely that both Mr.m and Mr.c stay out of each other's face, please.... along with everyone else regarding this topic.. page 6 has all the details about the argument for those who need drama in their life.


thank you.

 

[migueralliart]

I wouldn't be surprised if you find a longer rolled sheet in the high power cells than the high energy cells

Thanks for that info. Does anybody have a dud 20R that I could get for free? I will pay postage...I have a handful of conventional LiMn 18650's to pull apart and compare.

I would also be interested in the internal differences in a Panasonic 29E. Perhaps $5 paypal for postage for each dud cell to Kansas/66441, central USA? I promise to take pics of the surgery and the autopsy.

I got the Sony 26650 50 amp and 20R cells as spares. As soon as I get the 24R's I'll send you all 3.

I know dbass used to do discharge tests but I don't think he does then anymore.

 

[migueralliart]

I wonder what is Samsung actually targeting these cells for?

Power tools ? Ebikes?

I mean the 20R are a recent development.

The way things look I believe we'll see better 18650 cells in the next year or so as well.

Tesla just signed contract with Panasonic for 2 billion 18650 cells in the next 4 years.

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=15&t=54831

Even buck a cell its a lot of dough.
Obviously other companies want to get in on the action.

This is good news! Maybe cells prices will come down and manufacturers will start to compete.

After I test the 24R's I'll probably order some to make a relatively small pack (12S3P) and use this for my single speed commuter bike. Can't wait to receive the test samples.

 

[migueralliart]

Back on topic ...

For the third time !


I'm interested to know/see pictures of other peoples 20R packs ordered from Supower.

It'll be good if people could post images to see them.

 

[savaoaknyc]

Hey there are even newer cells 25r 2500mah actually.Here the link http://www.samsunglib.com/en/battery/newproducts_view.html?idx=7.

Don't know probably they are the same but i'am interested to see the results.

 

[Hillhater]

A useful table from the Samsung site.
Unfortunately the formatting wont copy over, but the last 2 columns are the capacity in Whrs and max continuous discharge amps

INR18650-13L Cylindrical 18 - 65 1,300 3.6 4.68 18
INR18650-13M Cylindrical 18 - 65 1,300 3.6 4.68 23
INR18650-15L Cylindrical 18 - 65 1,500 3.6 5.40 18
INR18650-15M Cylindrical 18 - 65 1,500 3.6 5.40 23
INR18650-20Q Cylindrical 18 - 65 2,000 3.6 7.20 15
INR18650-20R Cylindrical 18 - 65 2,000 3.6 7.20 22

 

[spinningmagnets]

I got the Sony 26650 50 amp and 20R cells as spares. As soon as I get the 24R's I'll send you all 3.

Thanks! I will cut them open and take pics of the carnage...

 

[Rollodo]

Can these 24R cells be constructed together in series and then be put together like LiPo's - meaning, just plug them together in series or parallel, whichever you desire? If there was a pack using these in 3S2P, or 11.1V 4800mAh, that could be a reusable module down the line.

In case of no BMS, if these were constructed with balancing wires on them, could I charge them like LiPo's on a balancing charger, like an iCharger? If yes, since these are 3.7V cells, charging wouldn't even require a LiFe setting, correct?

Basically, I want as versatile a pack as possible and be able to use the packs on different setups and motors - the simplicity of LiPo and safety of LiFePo4 or other (NCA, NMC, etc) chemistry. So far I have a 48V MAC, a 48V Smart Pie, and plan to purchase a 36V Bafang crank drive - with the modular setup, I could reconnect the packs for more range or more speed.



What the guys in the picture call "2 Sticks of 3 2S3" could be rearranged into a 3S2P module. If put together like this, each module would be roughly 200 x 40 x 20mm. With 42 grams each, the 3S2P config would weigh about 250 grams. Sure, in comparison to LiPo, it's a bit bulkier, or heavier, or even both, but I'll sleep better at night.

Am I correct in any of this?

 

[Hillhater]

Can these 24R cells be constructed together in series and then be put together like LiPo's - meaning, just plug them together in series or parallel, whichever you desire? If there was a pack using these in 3S2P, or 11.1V 4800mAh, that could be a reusable module down the line. ..

That sounds exactly like a "laptop" pack ! :wink:
..or even a power tool pack if you prefer 18v.

The "ultimate" solution i would like to see is a modular "Cell Holder" or "nesting" system similar to those available for the large Headway cylindrical 10Ahr cells.
A pack system where you can simply slip your 18650's into individual locations with inbuilt pressure connections (ie, no soldering or welding), and by reconfiguring a few (non cell) connections, end up with any series / parallel arrangement you want and also configure the overall pack "shape" to suit your space.
This would obviously add some extra weight, but the advantage of easy assembly and individual cell replacement would compensate.

 

[migueralliart]

I saw something like this a while ago but it wasn't for 18650 cells. It was for making 12V A123 motorcycle packs. Unfortunately the 18650 is more popular but the problem is also the surface area of the connection is smaller.

I would prefer to have something modular as well that you can drop in replacement cells easily. I think the problem has always been getting a pressure connection that can actually achieve the higher discharge rate. Typical springs suck at these are designed for non high discharge uses. Part of the reason why power tool packs are tab welded.

Rollodo,

To be honest I always prefer to connect cells in parallel then in series and not the other way around. Its easier to handle and less wires. You can start with a small pack ... perhaps 3P-14S dunno. But I feel the same as you. I sleep way better knowing my pack is made out of these 18650's compared to LIPO.


To give everyone an update. I've been using my ebike for commuting for the last couple of weeks.

I took the pack out of my triangle enclosure and checked the individual cells. To my surprise they were all balanced. I only balanced this pack when I did the first charge. It's been months and it hasn't required balancing. The 20R's rock.

But I advise people to hold buying the 20R's unless you can get a really good deal because you can get much more capacity with the 24R's specially since the prices are gonna come down.

 

[Rollodo]

Can these 24R cells be constructed together in series and then be put together like LiPo's - meaning, just plug them together in series or parallel, whichever you desire? If there was a pack using these in 3S2P, or 11.1V 4800mAh, that could be a reusable module down the line. ..

That sounds exactly like a "laptop" pack ! :wink:
..or even a power tool pack if you prefer 18v.

The "ultimate" solution i would like to see is a modular "Cell Holder" or "nesting" system similar to those available for the large Headway cylindrical 10Ahr cells.
A pack system where you can simply slip your 18650's into individual locations with inbuilt pressure connections (ie, no soldering or welding), and by reconfiguring a few (non cell) connections, end up with any series / parallel arrangement you want and also configure the overall pack "shape" to suit your space.
This would obviously add some extra weight, but the advantage of easy assembly and individual cell replacement would compensate.

Would you be referring to a 18650 modular (well, possibly) case fittings? Same seller (supowerbattery111), btw.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/10pc-Battery-Spacer-1x-18650-Radiating-Shell-EV-Battery-Pack-Plastic-Heat-Holder-/321114190875

 

[Rollodo]

To be honest I always prefer to connect cells in parallel then in series and not the other way around. Its easier to handle and less wires. You can start with a small pack ... perhaps 3P-14S dunno. But I feel the same as you. I sleep way better knowing my pack is made out of these 18650's compared to LIPO.

When charging modules, do you do it one by one (maybe with a board)? If so, do you select a 1 cell in series and just multiply the amps to get to the whole pack capacity, or how do you do it?

 

[Rollodo]

Sketched something up. Do the Andersons look good?

 

[migueralliart]

It looks like it could work. Although I dont see why do you want to do it this way. To me doing permanent connections between parallel blocks is always better.

 

[Rollodo]

It looks like it could work. Although I dont see why do you want to do it this way. To me doing permanent connections between parallel blocks is always better.

Yea, I might go with 16S4P in 4S4P chunks instead. But in any case, I'm waiting for SuPowerBattery's response to the inquiry I made earlier today about making 2 4P blocks like that, so I can check things out before going for a 60 cell purchase. Thanks for your response, Orlando. Any update on the 24R's?

 

[district9prawn]

I thought you guys might be interested in some life cycle tests I've done on the INR18650-20Q cell over the past couple of months. I've logged over 250 discharge-charge cycles from 4.18-2.7v at 7A charge and 1A discharge. Capacity loss has only been about 6%

 

[Rollodo]

I thought you guys might be interested in some life cycle tests I've done on the INR18650-20Q cell over the past couple of months. I've logged over 250 discharge-charge cycles from 4.18-2.7v at 7A charge and 1A discharge. Capacity loss has only been about 6%

Seems kind of high for 250 cycles, no? Maybe it's because you've been deep discharging them all this time.

 

[madin88]

I thought you guys might be interested in some life cycle tests I've done on the INR18650-20Q cell over the past couple of months. I've logged over 250 discharge-charge cycles from 4.18-2.7v at 7A charge and 1A discharge. Capacity loss has only been about 6%

I think you mean 1A charge and 7A discharge? 2,7V is very low..
Cutt off at >3,2V and charge only to 4,1V causes in about 10% lower usable capacity but will more than double the cycle life.

 

[district9prawn]

I think you mean 1A charge and 7A discharge? 2,7V is very low..
Cutt off at >3,2V and charge only to 4,1V causes in about 10% lower usable capacity but will more than double the cycle life.

Doh, yes, I meant 1A charge and 7A discharge.

Between 3.2 and 2.7 there is about 300maH on these cells as they don't fall off the cliff as rapidly as lipo or life. And between 4.2 and 4.1 about 100maH. So maybe closer to 20% but sure, it costs the cell a lot of its cycle life and I wouldn't do this to a real pack.

 

[MitchJi]

Hi,

I would prefer to have something modular as well that you can drop in replacement cells easily. I think the problem has always been getting a pressure connection that can actually achieve the higher discharge rate. Typical springs suck at these are designed for non high discharge uses. Part of the reason why power tool packs are tab welded.

Gary used these with A123 26650's. Riveting them to copper bus bars wouldn't take too much time.

http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail...GAEpiMZZMupuRtfu7GC%2bV5k6zVTq3YUfHt8nhDUQyY=

Battery Cell Size: 12 V, A, AA, AAA, CR2, N
Number of Batteries: 1
Material: Steel
Contact Plating: Nickel
Dimensions: 8.51 mm x 7.37 mm
Mounting: Rivet

http://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Keystone-Electronics/211-D/?qs=UrbseFuNL0nI4fE%2blK2JfQ==

Part Number: 211-D
Battery Cell Size: C, D
Number of Batteries: 1
Material: Steel
Contact Plating: Nickel
Dimensions: 16.51 mm x 21.59 mm
Mounting: Rivet

make some other items also:

 

[Rollodo]

Got my 4 4P 24R packs today, ~3.64V across all cells. Next step is to think through the installment of the tabs, what soldering iron temperature would be okay to use to solder 16 awg wire on these?

I plan to connect them in 4S4P like I briefly described above. Take a look here to see if balancing wires placement makes sense, I think it does, but I've never dealt with balancing before. Yellow = connecting wire.

 

[madin88]

Got my 4 4P 24R packs today, ~3.64V across all cells. Next step is to think through the installment of the tabs, what soldering iron temperature would be okay to use to solder 16 awg wire on these?

I plan to connect them in 4S4P like I briefly described above. Take a look here to see if balancing wires placement makes sense, I think it does, but I've never dealt with balancing before. Yellow = connecting wire.

The balancing wires and also the big wire are wrong placed! Don't build the battery like this.
If you begin with negitve side, you must install balancing wire number two and four between cells 1&2 and 3&4 on the back side of the battery pack.
And the big wire: connect 2&3 on top and 1&2, 3&4 on the back. It would be better for current flow to place the big wire in the middle of the nickel strips and not on the side.

 

[Rollodo]

Got my 4 4P 24R packs today, ~3.64V across all cells. Next step is to think through the installment of the tabs, what soldering iron temperature would be okay to use to solder 16 awg wire on these?

I plan to connect them in 4S4P like I briefly described above. Take a look here to see if balancing wires placement makes sense, I think it does, but I've never dealt with balancing before. Yellow = connecting wire.

The balancing wires and also the big wire are wrong placed! Don't build the battery like this.
If you begin with negitve side, you must install balancing wire number two and four between cells 1&2 and 3&4 on the back side of the battery pack.
And the big wire: connect 2&3 on top and 1&2, 3&4 on the back. It would be better for current flow to place the big wire in the middle of the nickel strips and not on the side.

I'll have to do the balancing later, but so far I've connected these with neodymium N42 magnets, and the config works well.



One more edit - the setup with only one connecting bar between paralleled cells works fine as well. On various sites, I also see all of them being soldered as well across all cells? Why is that? Same voltage - kind of confusing.

This is the one-bar connection:


These are multi-bars:

madin88, could you further explain about the balancing wires, numbers 2 and 4, etc. Using the pictures I uploaded, could you draw the path the wires should take? Since I've never dealt with balancing (or assembling my own battery packs), I'd appreciate that quiet a bit.

 

[ridethelightning]

hi there rollodo

i think of cells as having a oneway arrow in them- from pos+ to minus-. call me crazy but it helps me get my head around it.
i sometimes even use feltip marker and draw arrows on each cell so i dont get mixed up.

youll need your first balence wire on the bottom neg terminal, after that, at where the tip of each arrow goes into the bottom of the next arrow(or where the pos+ teminal

is connected to the neg of the next cell in series), till you get to the top pos+ teminal which has the final balence wire.


eg. for 7s pack, there will be 8 balence wires, including bottom neg wire


or, if you arent getting the arrow thing,

think of it as a flight of stairs with landings like a fire escape.

the balence wires are on the bottom of the lowest step,on each landing and the last one at the very top.

hope this helps

-E

 

[SniperGaulois]

Did he say how much the pack weighs? How much does it weigh?

Quote- <<due to my idrive enclosure.>>

gt idrive?

it is a spring counterbalance that reduces the pedalling energy lost into suspension while pedalling uphill.
It also reduces the absorbency of the back suspension by putting some of the bumps back into your feet, which isn't ideal for and ebike.

to add to that, the handlebars are very far forwards, which takes its toll in the long run after thousands of kilometres of cross-country used as an ebike.