Saved from the (fun) police with speed limiter?

[WoodlandHills]

What are you suggesting exactly? That nobody should ride bicycles or motorized bicycles on the street? I've already clarified that IF you are riding on the street, it's MUCH SAFER to ride IN traffic than ride much SLOWER than traffic, where you present an obstruction people have to deal with and pass.

The idea that I need liability insurance is laughable. More like life insurance, and I've already specified that I have no intention of dying on my bike. If it happens, it happens, but I will try to minimize the risk while riding in a way I consider reasonable.

So somehow your 40+mph e-motorcycle will do no damage to whatever you hit and you or your estate won't have to make anyone whole? It must be an amazing vehicle!

 

[gogo]

You have a major weight advantage over the 4 wheeled toaster boxes rolling around the street when it comes to stopping.

Potential braking performance is proportional to weight [aka; normal force]. 4-wheeled vehicles actually have the dynamic advantage of not needing to balance or avoid 'going down'.

That drivers don't recognize 2-wheeled dynamics and operational needs/limitations is a good reason to try to keep a buffer between. Some of them think its funny to swerve around obstacles at the last moment just so they can watch the tailgater behind them fail to have enough reaction time to avoid it.

I like the vibe from Chalo and liveforphysics about maximizing fun while staying legal. The ability for an electric drive to squirt away from a stop using only the legal 750W allowed is useful, and a type of fun that doesn't need to be hidden. I over-layed the 750W torque numbers on top of the torque graph for a 125cc enduro and the moto gets slaughtered until about 5 MPH. A properly set up 750W ebike would be the device of choice for low-speed trail riding.

So somehow your 40+mph e-motorcycle will do no damage to whatever you hit and you or your estate won't have to make anyone whole? It must be an amazing vehicle!

Horses/buggies, and in some places mopeds, don't need to be insured. Where should the line be drawn?

 

[E-geezer]

Some people will say this is nuts, but you are actually safer being closer to the car in front of you.

This works great until your front wheel drops into that giant pothole you couldn't see because you're sitting right on some dudes bumper at 30. I've learned the hard way if you want to keep your teeth, you need a gap which needs to be bigger the faster you are going.

 

[Alan B]

The riding habits required for long term safe motorcycle riding have been well documented.

If you are interested in driving safely and avoiding accidents, do the research and follow the patterns. Bicycles are a little different but many of the techniques are applicable.

Doing things like following closely and riding a bicycle in high speed traffic angers some car drivers and creates dangerous situations. Car drivers have expectations of bicycles, and anytime you don't follow them you increase the likelihood of a crash or making a driver angry. Some drivers skills disappear when they are angry, and this is not in the bicyclist's favor. All it takes is one bump.

If a bicyclist's improper actions cause a car to swerve and create a collision the cyclist could be liable for part of or even the entire accident.

Accidents and crashes are far more important and potentially life changing or ending events than speeding or illegal ebike tickets.

 

[WoodlandHills]

So somehow your 40+mph e-motorcycle will do no damage to whatever you hit and you or your estate won't have to make anyone whole? It must be an amazing vehicle!

Horses/buggies, and in some places mopeds, don't need to be insured. Where should the line be drawn?[/quote]

It is a function of speed and the ability to seriously damage whatever you hit. Most places I am aware of begin to make a distinction at 28mph to 30mph as a separation from bicycles/mopeds and motorcycles. If one is traveling at city or suburban traffic speeds than impacting another vehicle will cause considerable damage, enough to oblige one to take responsibility for the financial expense. A replacement fender on even a mid-priced car can cost over $1000 not counting any broken glass or headlights, are you saying that there is no ethical or moral obligation towards the other persons involved in any accident?

If one wants to travel at motorcycle speeds and assert ones place on the roadway like a motorcycle then one needs to acknowledge that what one is riding is a motorcycle. And motorcycles need insurance, registration and safety inspections. Electric power or building that motorcycle on a bicycle frame does not change that one bit.

 

[MrDude_1]

And motorcycles need insurance, registration and safety inspections. Electric power or building that motorcycle on a bicycle frame does not change that one bit.

my state wont consider it a vehicle and allow it to be registered... does not have safety inspections, and even if I did that, I can waive the insurance requirement with a $250 bond. lol.

I wouldnt do that of course...
personally I will do what I want. try not to hurt others or myself, and if something happens, it happens. If someone gets pissy about it.. I'll probably frock with them because im an asshole.

 

[gogo]

So somehow your 40+mph e-motorcycle will do no damage to whatever you hit and you or your estate won't have to make anyone whole? It must be an amazing vehicle!

Horses/buggies, and in some places mopeds, don't need to be insured. Where should the line be drawn?

It is a function of speed and the ability to seriously damage whatever you hit. Most places I am aware of begin to make a distinction at 28mph to 30mph as a separation from bicycles/mopeds and motorcycles. If one is traveling at city or suburban traffic speeds than impacting another vehicle will cause considerable damage, enough to oblige one to take responsibility for the financial expense. A replacement fender on even a mid-priced car can cost over $1000 not counting any broken glass or headlights, are you saying that there is no ethical or moral obligation towards the other persons involved in any accident?

If one wants to travel at motorcycle speeds and assert ones place on the roadway like a motorcycle then one needs to acknowledge that what one is riding is a motorcycle. And motorcycles need insurance, registration and safety inspections. Electric power or building that motorcycle on a bicycle frame does not change that one bit.

My question was honest. Speed and potential to inflict harm is a reasonable standard. Harm caused to others has always been actionable.

The moped definition in Iowa started at 25 in the 70's, then 30 in the 80's along with no power limit, and was just raised to 39 in 2014. I find this interesting because it seems dubious that mopeds designed in the 70's for 25MPH would be considered safe at 39 MPH. We don't have safety inspections for vehicles in Iowa, although the police can make trouble if they think anything on the streets is unsafe.

I'm just interested in the rationale for any law or regulation from the perspective that too many of either will eventually collapse society.

 

[flat tire]

It is a function of speed and the ability to seriously damage whatever you hit. Most places I am aware of begin to make a distinction at 28mph to 30mph as a separation from bicycles/mopeds and motorcycles.

Right, which is why I don't take this that seriously. I have a 65 lb e-bike and a 130 lb body and usually I go no faster than mid 40s which is very slow and reasonable. Did you ever consider that the authorities want vehicles capable of moving at more than a snail's pace registered so that they can force you to pay a tax in the event you want to travel at a reasonable speed?

A replacement fender on even a mid-priced car can cost over $1000 not counting any broken glass or headlights, are you saying that there is no ethical or moral obligation towards the other persons involved in any accident?

In the incredible event my e-bike inflicts ANY damage to anyone else's property, I'll pay for it. See, that wasn't so hard, was it? Why would the notion that I don't want insurance lead you to believe that I don't think it's a good idea to pay people if you break their stuff?

If one wants to travel at motorcycle speeds and assert ones place on the roadway like a motorcycle then one needs to acknowledge that what one is riding is a motorcycle. And motorcycles need insurance, registration and safety inspections. Electric power or building that motorcycle on a bicycle frame does not change that one bit.

Well, you don't need a motorcycle to hit 45 mph. I used to hit those speeds all the time on my road bike drafting SUVs and buses. Anyway, in reality registration and inspection are at least 90% a source of revenue for the state and at best 10% a public safety measure. This is because inspectors only check obvious stuff, are easily fooled, and can easily be paid to inspect whatever you want. As an amateur mechanic and local car enthusiast I've seen lots of completely legal cars and motorcycles that should not have been on the road or have been able to pass inspection. To restate what I said about insurance, I think the level of damage this e-bike could create and my risk of creating damage based on how I ride are both low enough that an insurance policy is not necessary. I will pay for any mishaps myself.

Doing things like following closely and riding a bicycle in high speed traffic angers some car drivers and creates dangerous situations. Car drivers have expectations of bicycles, and anytime you don't follow them you increase the likelihood of a crash or making a driver angry. Some drivers skills disappear when they are angry, and this is not in the bicyclist's favor. All it takes is one bump.

The guy who suggested following closely obviously has no idea what he's talking about. Myself, I ride safely, and the drivers don't give a shit because I'm polite and not an obstruction. The idea that riding IN traffic angers drivers if I'm skillful and polite is laughable--I use lots of body language to get people's attention when needed, don't make close cuts in and out of places, leave myself as much room as possible, and cruise with the flow. The last 3 are critical to do well if you want to not piss people off. Of course, given how most people ride I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Anyway, the alternative would be riding my bike at 20 MPH on the shoulder while everyone wizzes by, honking, yelling at me, almost hitting me, and wishing they could kill me for obstructing traffic. If anyone ever honks at me or tries to get my attention, it's because they noticed I have a badass bike and they want to tell me so or ask about it!

 

[MadRhino]

I don't follow, unless someone ahead is too dangerous to pass him righ now. In that situation I follow in another lane until it is safe to pass. I don't let anyone tailing me either. I like to ride ahead with a clear safety margin.

Anyway, each has his own preferences and habits, and they change with the experiences that happens over the years. The main thing to know is that cops will not be after you if you are not acting stupid and create disturbance on the street. The next is that if you look like a bicycle and pedal at all times, they will not care when you take advantage of bicycle privileges.

For the rest, moralists and legalists could write pages and pages, they will never change the freedom philosophy of a real rider. Those who are angry at other users of the street, for morality, legality or any other reason, are the ones who usually act stupid and/or aggressively. I chose to ignore them personality, to see them as innocent moving obstacles and feel it is my resonsibility to evaluate the potential danger around me.

 

[RageNR]

I guess I did not make my point clear. When I am talking about following close to a car in front of your this is under the circumstances of large city overcrowded traffic.
And again, I will reiterate my stance. Following behind the car in front of your as far to the right as possible.
This means you would most likely deflect to the right of the car (hopefully off the side of it) in the event of a collision.

I am not at all advocating using the vehicle as a landing mat. Why would you want to hit a car? That would be extremely dumb. Avoid any collision if you can.

Again, this is in overcrowded large city high traffic. If you do not stay close to the vehicle in front of you, the person behind is going to want to swerve and go around you.
Of course, let them pass if they're darting around or driving erratically. If they really want to pass.. let them. You can grin from ear to ear when you pass them 60sec later at the next traffic light.

What I think most people here are not realizing is, most large city traffic drivers are very hostile towards anything on 2 wheels. Even more so towards a bicycle.
They do not understand the dynamics involved with riding a bike in traffic, and treat you as if you do not belong there. Laws do not matter to most of them. They believe that THEY have the right of way.
Makes for a difficult time for cyclist. And this varies from city to city. Where I am, people are a$$holes everyday in the traffic. They could care less about you and your concerns.

The streets are overcrowded, people only care about themselves, and most grow impatient with anything they do not have control of.
Bottom line is, there simply is no "one size fits all" when we are discussing this topic. Police have to make tough judgement calls every day. You must be aware of your surroundings at all times, and do the same.

 

[Alan B]

Yes, Exactly, many/most vehicle drivers are quite hostile to bicycle traffic, even if moving at full traffic speed. They won't leave you adequate room, and they want to pass you NO MATTER YOUR SPEED. It is hazardous to be out in the lane. You do it only when necessary, otherwise get the heck out of there. In many jurisdictions it is only legal to be out in the lane in certain specific circumstances. Riding out there can bring the ire of the law down on you (ask Amberwolf). Laws vary, but many drivers have no patience for even the incorrect perception of being slowed down by bicycles, even when the bicycle is moving above the speed limit and there is an impassable obstacle in front of the bicycle like a dump truck.

We each have a lot of experience in our own areas, but understand that it varies in other locales, and that many police officers themselves are not pro-bicycle in-the-lane, even when it is legal. So you risk drawing their undesired attention on you and your illegal machine.

In their frustration these drivers will create very dangerous situations that are catalyzed by you being there, and by your unexpected illegal speed. Passing in an oncoming lane takes a lot longer when your speed is much higher than they expected, using up more space and time than they have safety margin.

You accept a lot of responsibility when you operate your illegal ebike on public roads.

 

[flat tire]

It seems our experiences vary. I love traffic and I have no problem riding in it, point blank. I have no problem with other drivers either, they don't get mad at me because I don't do unreasonable things...AND I ride in some of the worst traffic, with some of the worst drivers in the country. You guys must be doing it wrong because riding in traffic should be ENJOYABLE.

 

[Chalo]

Yes, Exactly, many/most vehicle drivers are quite hostile to bicycle traffic, even if moving at full traffic speed. They won't leave you adequate room, and they want to pass you NO MATTER YOUR SPEED.

I used to have a downhill on the way to work in Seattle that was about half a mile long without cross streets, with an elevation drop of about 350 feet. There was a freeway style ramp exit at the bottom. Despite these things, the street had a speed limit of 35mph, probably because there were houses and driveways on the going-uphill side of the street.

If I crouched over the handlebars and pulled my knees in, I'd reach 55mph about halfway down, which I could maintain all the way down to the exit ramp. Twenty over the limit, on a plain pedal bike. But because it was a bicycle, stupid jackass drivers just had to pass me going 70mph on a 35mph street right in front of people's houses. Then they'd freak out and stab the brakes hard upon reaching the exit ramp.

I never saw any of them crash or get pulled over, but I confess that I sometimes wished it.

 

[Chalo]

I have a 65 lb e-bike and a 130 lb body

Now I begin to understand the strange application of machismo and outlaw posturing applied to a bicycle.

Just get a Harley already. They even make them in small sizes.

 

[flat tire]

I have a 65 lb e-bike and a 130 lb body

Now I begin to understand the strange application of machismo and outlaw posturing applied to a bicycle.

Just get a Harley already. They even make them in small sizes.

Funny! I'm 6 foot and I already have a motorcycle. Now, what exactly is strange about wanting to ride an electric bicycle fast while not being bothered by authorities?

 

[MrDude_1]

I have a 65 lb e-bike and a 130 lb body

Now I begin to understand the strange application of machismo and outlaw posturing applied to a bicycle.

Just get a Harley already. They even make them in small sizes.

Funny! I'm 6 foot and I already have a motorcycle. Now, what exactly is strange about wanting to ride an electric bicycle fast while not being bothered by authorities?

Nothing. You're in with the majority of the population... The current problem with electric vehicles is they attract strange people...

 

[RageNR]

LMFAO

 

[Chalo]

There's a tidy legal category for two wheeled vehicles that go 40mph. It's "motorcycle". Fulfill your legal obligations a motorcyclist and you'll have no trouble from the authorities.

Try to sneak around as a bicyclist and with any luck, you'll get busted and your ride impounded.

 

[Mundo]

This thread is starting to remind me of this nut................

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C4WnVu2ktz4&app=desktop

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=80242&p=1185824&hilit=405#p1182861

I find value even in the worst examples.

 

[RageNR]

Showboating can get you on a high.. for a moment.
If you are really going to do that, don't make a video and post it on the net. That is about the dumbest thing you could do.

That is about the equivalent of driving down to the police station in your unregistered car, without insurance or a license plate, then honk and wave at the cops as you drive by.
"HEY YOU!! LOOK AT ME!" Yep, they are gonna look at you alright. And you will be looking at a nice hefty citation or maybe bars for the next few days.


You know what I think is going on here? Some of these guys have seen videos of 2 wheel vehicles in other countries, where they ride in/through/between/around/in front of all the other traffic on the road.
They think they can get by with that here too. And yeah, they might for a while.

Thing is, that is not common here. Even true motorcycles and motopeds have a difficult time deploying those driving tactics.
People do not expect it, and get pissy even when it is completely legal. Again, most of them are hostile towards 2 wheel riders, and increasingly so when you ride like this.
Compound that by riding your illegal machine on the streets. Might as well drive down to the local station and show the nice people your ride.

EDIT: Oh yeah, don't forget to tell them the name of your YouTube channel too. LoL

 

[MadRhino]

Well, here a motorcycle is more likely to be stopped by the cops, than an illegal ebike. On a motorcycle in town you have to follow the cars and behave like them. To me this means cruising, and the only advantage of riding a motorcycle is that you can breathe cars exhaust closer.

It happened many times that friends on motorcycles got fined trying to follow me. Bicycle privileges are a neat advantage to commute in the city. I find absolutely no interest riding a motorcycle in town, my last was in 1981 and since then I have had only MX and Trials.

 

[Just2807]

750w of mechanical output translated the torque for various RPMs.

750w output at Xrpm

1rpm = 5,315ft-lbs of torque.
2rpm = 2,657ft-lbs of torque.
5rpm = 1,063ft-lbs of torque.
10rpm = 531ft-lbs of torque (approximately deathbike rear wheel torque as currently geared).
20rpm = 265ft-lbs of torque.
30rpm = 177ft-lbs of torque.
50rpm = 106ft-lbs of torque.
100rpm = 53ft-lbs of torque.
200rpm = 26ft-lbs of torque (getting pretty sad now).

This is at the motor output right? Before reduction?

 

[WoodlandHills]

It is a function of speed and the ability to seriously damage whatever you hit. Most places I am aware of begin to make a distinction at 28mph to 30mph as a separation from bicycles/mopeds and motorcycles.

Right, which is why I don't take this that seriously. I have a 65 lb e-bike and a 130 lb body and usually I go no faster than mid 40s which is very slow and reasonable. Did you ever consider that the authorities want vehicles capable of moving at more than a snail's pace registered so that they can force you to pay a tax in the event you want to travel at a reasonable speed?

THIS IS TIN FOIL HAT STUFF.........

A replacement fender on even a mid-priced car can cost over $1000 not counting any broken glass or headlights, are you saying that there is no ethical or moral obligation towards the other persons involved in any accident?

In the incredible event my e-bike inflicts ANY damage to anyone else's property, I'll pay for it. See, that wasn't so hard, was it? Why would the notion that I don't want insurance lead you to believe that I don't think it's a good idea to pay people if you break their stuff?

SO WHO PAYS IF YOU GET KILLED CRASHING AT A "VERY SLOW AND REASONABLE" 45mph AFTER CRIPPLING A PEDESTRIAN WHO STEPPED OUT IN FRONT OF YOU BECAUSE HE SAW A BICYCLE AND DIDNT KNOW IT WAS GOING 45mph? ARE YOU WEALTHY ENOUGH TO PAY FOR A LIFETIME OF NURSING CARE AS WELL AS COMPENSATION, OR DO YOU LIVE IN A COUNTRY WITH A NATIONAL HEALTH SERVICE AND YOU CAN LET THE TAXPAYERS TAKE RESPONSIBILTY FOR YOUR ACTIONS. I AM TRYING TO UNDERSTAND HOW YOU CAN HANDLE THE POTENTIAL COSTS OF EVEN ONE PERSON BECOMING DISABLED, LET ALONE A MOM WITH HER KIDS......

If one wants to travel at motorcycle speeds and assert ones place on the roadway like a motorcycle then one needs to acknowledge that what one is riding is a motorcycle. And motorcycles need insurance, registration and safety inspections. Electric power or building that motorcycle on a bicycle frame does not change that one bit.

Well, you don't need a motorcycle to hit 45 mph. I used to hit those speeds all the time on my road bike drafting SUVs and buses. Anyway, in reality registration and inspection are at least 90% a source of revenue for the state and at best 10% a public safety measure. This is because inspectors only check obvious stuff, are easily fooled, and can easily be paid to inspect whatever you want. As an amateur mechanic and local car enthusiast I've seen lots of completely legal cars and motorcycles that should not have been on the road or have been able to pass inspection. To restate what I said about insurance, I think the level of damage this e-bike could create and my risk of creating damage based on how I ride are both low enough that an insurance policy is not necessary. I will pay for any mishaps myself.

Doing things like following closely and riding a bicycle in high speed traffic angers some car drivers and creates dangerous situations. Car drivers have expectations of bicycles, and anytime you don't follow them you increase the likelihood of a crash or making a driver angry. Some drivers skills disappear when they are angry, and this is not in the bicyclist's favor. All it takes is one bump.

The guy who suggested following closely obviously has no idea what he's talking about. Myself, I ride safely, and the drivers don't give a shit because I'm polite and not an obstruction. The idea that riding IN traffic angers drivers if I'm skillful and polite is laughable--I use lots of body language to get people's attention when needed, don't make close cuts in and out of places, leave myself as much room as possible, and cruise with the flow. The last 3 are critical to do well if you want to not piss people off. Of course, given how most people ride I'll give you the benefit of the doubt. Anyway, the alternative would be riding my bike at 20 MPH on the shoulder while everyone wizzes by, honking, yelling at me, almost hitting me, and wishing they could kill me for obstructing traffic. If anyone ever honks at me or tries to get my attention, it's because they noticed I have a badass bike and they want to tell me so or ask about it!

A person who "used to hit those speeds all the time on my road bike drafting SUVs and buses" and still thinks that "I ride safely" is delusional........

 

[liveforphysics]

750w of mechanical output translated the torque for various RPMs.

750w output at Xrpm

1rpm = 5,315ft-lbs of torque.
2rpm = 2,657ft-lbs of torque.
5rpm = 1,063ft-lbs of torque.
10rpm = 531ft-lbs of torque (approximately deathbike rear wheel torque as currently geared).
20rpm = 265ft-lbs of torque.
30rpm = 177ft-lbs of torque.
50rpm = 106ft-lbs of torque.
100rpm = 53ft-lbs of torque.
200rpm = 26ft-lbs of torque (getting pretty sad now).

This is at the motor output right? Before reduction?

Anywhere you have that RPM rate and that torque value it's exactly ~750w of mechanical power. It can be at the rear wheel and/or at the motor. Gearing it however you like trades around the ratios of torque and rpm, but it can ultimately only lose power from the initial 750w of mechanical output.