Show Quality Custom Build about to begin! And I Need YOU!!

[DRMousseau]

After a year of planning, preps, research, and all,… I'm jus about to begin construction on a unique project bike and still have some need for opinions, considerations, and overlooked thoughts. Hope you're patient with the following overview,… otherwise, skip down to my current matter of consideration and needed opinions.

Personal background includes more than general history and basis of modified & custom motorcycles, electric golf cars, general bicycles, and more, both professionally and personally. But only a year or so with e-bikes,… my current 29er is based on an ordinary big box cruiser. Currently fitted with 1500W Leaf, basic 40A controller, 52V 11.5AH LunaCycle pack,… it's been great. All I had hoped for and more,.. VERY pleased and satisfied in my choice. That "more" though, HAS required some added extras,… Schwalbe Big Apples, new front wheel assy, some custom brackets and triple-tree fork to accommodate BB-7 disk brakes, with a few other minor added basics. This bike will be restored to it's basic for and sold while all added extras will mostly be transferred to new project.A brief rundown of NEW PROJECT,.… a 26" e-bike. A show quality Centennial 1917-2017 Commemorative, to "The Stealth Bomber"!!! From it's early aviation beginnings with The Curtis 1917 JN-4HB (also known as "The Jenny"), the 2-seater which was equipped with the more powerful engine of The Wright Company, the bicycle guys of aviation fame. The "B" model of the "H series" Jenny, designated "Bombing Trainer", and was also the first successful Dive-Bomber. Other JN-4H models included the "G", gunnery trainer, and the "M" of First Air Mail fame. THIS commemorative bike will feature a blend of old and new technology including a frame that reflects aviation's modern "stealth" designs and angles as well as being reminiscent of the early bi-plane and bicycle form as well as early JN-4H paint scheme. A permanent leather padded "co-pilot/passenger" seat, with permanent passenger foot-pegs is essential for legal requirements of bicycle passengers, and to maintain the early 2-seater history of the JN-4H. A facsimile of an early WWI/WWII era "BOMB" will be cradled in the frame, and will conceal the removable battery pack,… "H"idden "B"attery. A "cockpit" compartment under seat will house controller, key-switch, charger, etc. All wiring and most cabling will be in frame. A "mini-joystick" lever and exposed cable, will function the front 3-speed derailleur. Motor will be current 1500W Leaf with existing 52V battery pack,… slight more powerful than typical e-bikes, less than modern stealth bomber bikes of current popularity. Over all form is a rebel "chopper" design of open form rather than conventional compact form of traditional bikes. This allows more emphasis in past and present design forms in both, cycling and aviation.

While some choices MAY not be the very best, they were selected based primarily on form, simplicity, functionality, and purpose, with secondary considerations of reasonable economics. Bike WILL be displayed and featured in various local bike, motorcycle, auto, and air shows and participate in related activities. And of course,… it will be enjoyed daily on local paved surfaces.

Most builds of such sort, are designed and built around the power plant,… in this case, a direct drive hub-motor, the 1500W Leaf. Geared hubs and mid-drives were closely considered, but the Leaf won out on several criteria. THIS Leaf has a 135 axle, would much prefer a longer axle, but this will be accommodated in a unique bracketed dropout mounted in the full custom frame. The 26" rear tire AND rim is unusual!!! (seen below)


YES! That is a tubeless, automotive, compact "donut" spare!!! This T145 70R/17 is approx. 25.5" in overall diameter and about 6" wide,… it was selected for being closest to the standard 26" bicycle tire chosen for the front, and with considerations of motor. I want a TOUGH, "meaty", heavy duty rear tire, able to carry the excessive rear weight load (inc passenger) with no concerns what so ever!!! Also needed adequate axle height for reasonable seat and BB heights in the low slung frame design. Various "fat bike" tires and rims were considered as was some motorcycle rims and tires. Most ALL were VERY costly and prohibitive, and few provided any adaptability to my needs.

MY BIG ISSUE!!!!
I intend to cut and remove the center of this rim, and adapt it to my hub motor. Consider my needs,… heavy-duty strength, the hub will require a great offset in rim AND, a need to be stronger as an assembled unit than typical bicycle setup. I would actually prefer a solid "mag" type setup, but that's not practical in any way I can conceive. Next in preference, a lacing of motorcycle or automotive quality,… much different than a bicycle! Rim has no need for strength of lacing spokes,… only a need of solid, secure hub attachment. (Regarding offset,… a single speed rear freewheel will be used with 3spd chainrings.)

Your OPINIONS, THOUGHTS, CONSIDERATIONS and SUGGESTIONS regarding my issue!!!
Since rim is "blank",… it can be drilled in any needed pattern or manner. Spoke holes CAN NOT be reasonably dimpled. I have considered drilling hub to 72hole, without greatly affecting spoke flange strength, AND drilling rim in any needed pattern to best facilitate offset, hub flange dimensions, spoke angles and spoke strength in a single cross lacing. Heavy gauge bicycle spokes can be accommodated by hub. I WOULD PREFER to keep standard 36hole hub, and drill rim to facilitate a single cross lacing. I MAY consider other lacing patterns, but would like to reasonably match front rim lacing appearance. Again,… front wheel assy, is desired to be a pretty standard 36hole 26" bicycle setup. Front weight of bike should be no heavier than typical with long raked forks providing some "cushion" and any weight transfer during braking should not be excessive for quality front tire, hub, spoke, and rim assy.

SO,…. Should I maybe consider a strong straight lace 72hole on both front and rear??? What of "spoke line" in drilling rear rim??? Should I consider "cross lacing" of rear due to wide rim and narrow hub flange??? Since rim is EXTREAMLY small in diameter, should I consider a grouped pattern drilled into rear rim for better spoke angles??? Certainly needed if a single-cross lace is to be done in 36hole and likely in a 72hole. What will be my "strongest", most solid lace pattern for rear that I can match to front???

Other thoughts??? Other options I may have overlooked, not known, or maybe not considered????

 

[dogman dan]

Very interesting. I've wondered about something similar, adapting an aluminum hub motor flange to a steel rim. A sort of weld your own steel mag rim.

It would be a set of fabricated steel Y shapes pieces. Each would bolt to the flange of the motor on 4 spoke holes, then the other end of the Y, after the bolting on, welded to the rim itself.

I was thinking of this sort of thing some time ago, before I knew you could lace a bike hub motor to motorcycle or moped rims.

 

[kdog]

i dont get it... too much waffle
but you want to put a car rim on a 1500w hub motor with a 135mm axle into a bike frame...err somethings NQR here
if you want heavy duty
go a cromotor or similar like mxus 3/5000 or one of the QS motors (big thick axles)@ 150mm laced into a moped rim with moped spokes
at least it will fit into a bike frame, and it will save you tons of work...
or did i skip to much detail :?

 

[ecycler]

Cool project, but I think you are going to need a different motor. The kind of rotating mass you are talking about is going to heat the crap out of a leaf1500 on anything remotely inclined.

 

[ecycler]

Also, have you met the guy behind this before? http://www.friendsofjenny.org/

He personally restored an old Jenny and actually flies it to many air shows around the country. Great guy!

I am not a big fan of taildraggers, but sure appreciate the history and physics behind all those tensioned cables holding those wings together!!!

 

[SlowCo]

That rear wheel/tire will not bear the "excessive rear weight" you mentioned. The load will be on the axle of the Leaf hub motor and the bearings and side plate of the rotor. Why not use a 17" cast hub motor wheel with a motorcycle tire? Something like this:
http://www.qs-motor.com/product/17i...hub-motor45h-v2-type-for-electric-motorcycle/ (version 2)
or
http://www.qs-motor.com/product/17inch-3000w-in-wheel-hub-motor-v3-type-for-electric-motorcycle/ (version 3)
Those motors can actually carry the load and propel it forward.
Vito from QS motor posts here on E-S and can help you:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=31&t=65972

I hope you will document your build here for us to follow. Good luck!

 

[999zip999]

Vito at qs-motors has some powerful hub motors and a lot of options for motorcycle style bike.

 

[DRMousseau]

Very interesting. I've wondered about something similar, adapting an aluminum hub motor flange to a steel rim. A sort of weld your own steel mag rim.

It would be a set of fabricated steel Y shapes pieces. Each would bolt to the flange of the motor on 4 spoke holes, then the other end of the Y, after the bolting on, welded to the rim itself.

YES Dan!!! I have thought carefully several similar setup,... with "mag" spokes bolted to hub via spoke holes, and outer ends bolted to rings, which are bolted to inside rim circumference. Still a future thought, but currently impractical AND "mag" spokes would be VERY short!!! But would give a lighter alum/alloy setup maybe. Even with standard spokes,... I'm lookin at a length of approx. 3-4in or so.

Kdog- this is a FULL custom welded frame, NOT a standard bicycle frame. "Heavy Duty" is needed most in frame and wheel assys. Motor drive is mostly assistive and "unique fun",... this IS a rather heavier than normal bike. I had considered geared hubs and mid-drives,.... even a front wheel drive. But front is much too light to be driven relative to balance and design. Mid-drives, interfere with frame line simplicity AND complicates the drivetrain with added unwanted wear and maintenance. Geared hubs STILL may be considered at some point, but I'm not thrilled with the internal wear factor and noise. A DD hub is simple and quiet,.. although this design WILL strain it a bit.

Cool project, but I think you are going to need a different motor. The kind of rotating mass you are talking about is going to heat the crap out of a leaf1500 on anything remotely inclined.

Yes,.. a lot of rotating mass AND overall weight!!! Regen braking is HIGHLY desired, and a primary consideration, even at the reduced and typical low legal speeds. This is predominantly a "Show Cruiser",... street use will be almost entirely flat pavement with few if any gentle inclines. IT WILL NOT be driven at max capacity or output much. Although capable of short showy bursts, and maybe a wheel lift,.. it mostly will be kept to "civilized" bicycle use. The Leaf w/52V has proven pretty dang capable on my 29er with plenty of excitement. With the smaller 26", I expect it to be better suited with similar enjoyment. I don't expect 40mph as with the 29er, but it will still be plenty enough, and still be "excessive" by law. To be honest, I expect the battery will see more heat abuse as the Leaf can quickly draw the 11.5 AH pack it to it's max way before the motor suffers.

OH!!! And note the two color pattern of the Jenny on the front page of that link along with tail and splashes. Rear "bobbed" fender will feature an oversize distinctive "flare" for passenger security AND to show off those colors, as did the distinctive "oversize" tail-fin of the "H" series JN-4. A hundred year history, in style, technology and design, all in one bicycle,... where aviation began!

SLOCO- The rear wheel and tire WILL carry the weight jus fine,.... heck, no spokes needed!!! It's a heavy steel rim!!! This is not where strength is needed, but rather in the solid connection of hub to this rim. As I noted before, not a typical bicycle rim assy, but rather a solid automotive/motorcycle assy, quite different from one another. But YES!!! There will be TREMENDOUS loading on axle bearings and side-plates of the motor due to the unusual forces of the excessively wide tire and shifting weight transfers. AND,.. I had considered those motors and others. They are excessive,... I'm building a "bicycle", NOT a motorcycle! But don't tempt me! Hard to resist as it is!!! But these and others would require other "motorcycle" parts such as brake systems and would still have to adapt to sprocket drive and pedals.

 

[DRMousseau]

While inspiration has come from a lifetime of bicycle, motorcycle, and "hot rod" enjoyment,... it has also been "tainted" with aviation from it's early beginings, to those amazing machines I see in the air today! And today,... I'm retired, and a bit more relaxed in my excitement.

I knew I'd be using square tubing and/or flat plates in design, rather than round tubing or plated over round stock. I also knew the various features I wanted,... custome handlebars, two seater, radical "modern" design lines, with bicycle wheels and pedals. Motor assist, was actually a recent consideration that made my dreams a bit more feasible for an old man!! So after a lifetime of dreaming, it all began coming together a year ago!!! And the growing internet and WWW has been WONDERFULL in it's contributions to my efforts. AND THE THEME,.. jus happened!!!

BUT,... while there is whole WORLD of creative folks out there, I had a hard time finding anything close to my sketches and thoughts. I DID surprisingly happen upon a couple that were similar in features and style though!!! My thoughts are always "I'm sure it's been done by SOMEONE!!!"

Here's one that features square tubing, wheels, a "stealth" design, paneled forms, fender, the wheels and tires of my thoughts, handlebars, and more,... but lacks a motor. lol! Credits to AtomicZombie.com for their Vigilante Stealth Bomber!!! I LUV THE NAME too!!! "But it's not my 'Jenny'."

Close,.. AND helpful!!!


Another that was much closer and more practical in my thoughts follows below. I wish I knew who to credit, as photo was happened upon with no info, source, or origin.


VERY CLOSE!!! I jus KNEW someone thinks as I do!!! Nearly everything here including big "BOMB" cradle for my battery, good handlebars, great lines and angles that are even reminiscent of WWI flyers!!! Rear tire is excessive, and while I like the seat incorporated into this, it falls short of my 2-seat needs with a flared fender. But it DOES have a modern style WITH square tube frame!!! AND LOOK AT THAT HEAD!!!! MUCH better than my paneled thoughts. The rear dropout area is quit similar to my intended design, as it brings the frame a bit higher while keeping a straight backbone. Also has a dropout "plate". I will use a similar plate that will be heavier to bolt an offset dropout for motor axle inboard of frame rails. I had also considered a similar chainline,... but I want a 3-speed crankset, derailleur, take-up, and guides that SHOULD be inline with the narrower rear wheel assy of my design.

Neither of these above feature a "seat post" in the frame as it's uneeded due to fixed seat design. Both treat the lines of rear frame rail attachmet to backbone and bottom rail differently,... one angled, one squared, both minimal. I intend an unusual 'seat post" in the frame to support "cockpit" box under seat that will contain controller and related items, and as an added "inframe" channel for lower wiring runs. Must also consider position of passenger footpegs. I'll also consider a small understated "cockpit windscreen" for front of LCD panel. And fixed mount headlight and taillight designs.

 

[dogman dan]

Like the vigilante wheel. Looks like two rims with some kind of spacer in the middle?

 

[DRMousseau]

Like the vigilante wheel. Looks like two rims with some kind of spacer in the middle?

YES! The black one uses a compact spare with center punched out, like I am. "Mag" spokes are cut and welded in between rim and modified hub.

THE WHITE ONE, does indeed appear to be constructed as you describe. I can find no info yet, on how this MAY have been made by the builder or others who may have done the same, BUT I HAVE seen one similar and talked to the guy about it. He had used two old 20" rims that happened to be wide enough to hold the bead width of a car tire and it began as a joke on a shop friend. But he actually built the idea out into a ratty mod for the kids.

He welded the tube hole and alternate spoke holes closed, and ground everything smooth. After setting spoke nipples with a rim strip to hold them, he put the rims back on the tires. "It wasn't easy!" he said, and the rims edges did look kinda rough. He put a tube in, and then tack-welded some guides between the rims, WITH THE TIRE AND TUBE ON. He then cut a long steel sheet panel to fit between the rims on the guide bars, and had a "lap" welded on one end of the panel. A large hole in the center of the panel was grommeted and sorta held the air valve. The panel was forced in between with the end set on the lap, and was tack welded along the seam and along the rim (I assume the lap was probably located on a support bar between the rims). After painting, it was laced to homemade hub. Inflated to only 10psi, the tire was supported well, with the rims only retaining the bead and no real sealing. He noted that it could never be repaired, but didn't expect he'd have too either. Looked as ratty as the rest of the bike,... single speed, front brake only. A similar multi-chain drive. Not fast, a lot of rider effort, hard to turn of course, not practical, but looked "cool". LoL!! And jus not for me!!!

I'm strongly leaning toward a 72hole HALF-RADIAL lace with short 12ga spokes and only a slight lateral cross on the rear, and a typical 72hole bicycle rim laced to match, on the front. The lateral cross should give the necessary lateral support needed on the wide rim, to the narrow hub flange, with the short heavy gauge spokes making for a solid wheel. With excessive dish, the half-radial will also be stronger and more beneficial. THERE IS a thought to also maintain a tubeless assy with an internal sealing system I have in mind,... don't need added tube weight, got enough already!!! While there IS a bit more leveraged extension on the axle of the hub as Sloco noted, I don't EXPECT any "excessive" wear on the bearings, or a much greater stress on the motor covers,.. but it could be tremendously greater than typical. Much will depend on how resistant the bike and tire "rolls" into turns.

I had really kinda liked a radial spoke lace of 72 or even 144 both front and rear,... but with strong hub motor, heavy weights, and disk brakes front and rear, I'm jus not confident in it.