Wheazel
10 kW
Very nice! That was a great video.
Slawek's angle grinder drive
- Thread starter slawek
- Start date
spinningmagnets
100 TW
This is a wonderful build! I can't think of anything to suggest. Very professional.
Using a bolt as the motor shaft is an idea that solves a problem I had. I don't like how small the tip of an 8mm diameter shaft is, and I have had success using the 63mm diameter motors with the 10mm shaft (with two flats ground onto the sides of the shaft tip, to key into a drive-shaft slot). For direct-drive on my friction set-up, I like the 63mm motors. But if I add a reduction, I think the 50mm motors (with an 8mm shaft) have some useful kV's. An 8mm-shank bolt has a head that can be ground into the size and shape I want.
If you make a cover for the motor and belt, perhaps make the sides from clear plastic so everyone can still see it?
Using a bolt as the motor shaft is an idea that solves a problem I had. I don't like how small the tip of an 8mm diameter shaft is, and I have had success using the 63mm diameter motors with the 10mm shaft (with two flats ground onto the sides of the shaft tip, to key into a drive-shaft slot). For direct-drive on my friction set-up, I like the 63mm motors. But if I add a reduction, I think the 50mm motors (with an 8mm shaft) have some useful kV's. An 8mm-shank bolt has a head that can be ground into the size and shape I want.
If you make a cover for the motor and belt, perhaps make the sides from clear plastic so everyone can still see it?
That, was riveting. And no, I'm not kidding. Your bike is not only clean and effective, and very, very stealth, but it uses a drivetrain that I've never seen successfully implemented!
Nice and quiet too!
Questions:
1. the rear pulley is attached using the same holes that the disc is? You just ran longer bolts to go through both?
2. What the heck does the small pinion gear look like now? How did you make that part?
3. the new interface with the pinion gear, the bolt head. How did you attach that to the shaft of the motor?
TIA, and again, wow!
Katou
Nice and quiet too!
Questions:
1. the rear pulley is attached using the same holes that the disc is? You just ran longer bolts to go through both?
2. What the heck does the small pinion gear look like now? How did you make that part?
3. the new interface with the pinion gear, the bolt head. How did you attach that to the shaft of the motor?
TIA, and again, wow!
Katou
AussieJester
1 TW
Excellent video and very clean build, the belt and pulley setup is trick! Also
a very stealth setup, the layout and connections in the rear bag is very well thought out.
KiM
a very stealth setup, the layout and connections in the rear bag is very well thought out.
KiM
slawek
10 mW
Thank you guys, I am glad you like my build, it's really mean a lot to me.
To be honest I did not implement Ø10mm shaft in my motor, but Ø8mm like original one. I just used Ø10mm screw because I couldn’t find Ø8mm long enough. Besides changing bearings to fit Ø10mm shaft, even using needle bearings, required to much interferences in motor (to close to magnetic stator). It was much easier mount screw on lathe machine an cut 2mm from diameter.
I will think about sides from clear plastic.
Lets say relatively quiet. I say that because I have seen many builds on ES and I am impressed how quiet hub motors are. Slowly I am thinking about second build with no gearbox, just pulley on motor, rear wheel and polychain belt, but before I start, I have a lot “homework†to do.
To answer your questions:
1. Yes. I just simply removed rivets, drill trough disc brake and 6 arms shimano central lock to fit screw #10. Big pulley has 6 thread’s #10-24.
2 & 3. Maybe this picture bring a little light what I have done here.
From left: It is brand new pinion with metal ring. I just simply replace this ring with bearing. (I had to turn a little bit to bearing in diameter)
The bolt head go inside pinion.
spinningmagnets said:
To be honest I did not implement Ø10mm shaft in my motor, but Ø8mm like original one. I just used Ø10mm screw because I couldn’t find Ø8mm long enough. Besides changing bearings to fit Ø10mm shaft, even using needle bearings, required to much interferences in motor (to close to magnetic stator). It was much easier mount screw on lathe machine an cut 2mm from diameter.
I will think about sides from clear plastic.
katou said:
Lets say relatively quiet. I say that because I have seen many builds on ES and I am impressed how quiet hub motors are. Slowly I am thinking about second build with no gearbox, just pulley on motor, rear wheel and polychain belt, but before I start, I have a lot “homework†to do.
To answer your questions:
1. Yes. I just simply removed rivets, drill trough disc brake and 6 arms shimano central lock to fit screw #10. Big pulley has 6 thread’s #10-24.
2 & 3. Maybe this picture bring a little light what I have done here.
From left: It is brand new pinion with metal ring. I just simply replace this ring with bearing. (I had to turn a little bit to bearing in diameter)
The bolt head go inside pinion.
AussieJester
1 TW
I was just looking at the hv ESC sitting in your bag there, did add a couple of extra capacitors
on the "+" & "-" input wires? Helps with the voltage spikes that kill these speed controllers.
KiM
on the "+" & "-" input wires? Helps with the voltage spikes that kill these speed controllers.
KiM
etard
100 kW
Awesome build! Nice video! I wonder if you have been able to do any calculations on what kind of efficiency your drive is getting from motor to rear wheel? No blown controllers?
We'll just put this build down in the win box for sensorless controllers.
We'll just put this build down in the win box for sensorless controllers.
slawek
10 mW
2000 Miles on this drive – I think is time for report.
1. Battery pack 7S10P – almost died. From 40AH from beginning only about 20Ah left with significant voltage sag under load. BatterySpace.com over rated current (10A continuous, and 20A peak 15sec) at least 2 – 3 times. I wrote feedback to them and now they wrapping this battery in green thermal shrink with lower ratings. I have $700 less in my pocket and I will never buy battery from them.
My average current at cruising speed 25-27 MPH was ~ 40Amps, and up to 85 during acceleration – this is what I was able read from CA. However CC ICE 100 shows up to 135A but never longer than 1 – 2sec.
2. Gear box – no significant wear. I change oil every 500 miles. Neodymium magnet really does job. On each oil replace all surface of magnet was coated with thin layer of metal powder. Once I even found small metal piece of metal of size of 1/16 inch. I could not locate where this came from, but if this thing could get on gear, that definitely could end the life for gearbox. Also I had tiny oil leak on main shaft but this is no big deal, I wipe once a week with paper towel.
3. Controller – CC Phoenix Ice 100 it does job very good when cruising speed is with full open throttle. With lower speed over heat in 1 – 2 min and then there is this annoying beeping until temp goes down.
4. Timing belt – I have to say Gates did great job designing this belt. Is strong like a hell. I put already 1600 miles since I change from chain. Is quiet, clean and transfer less vibration from gearbox. I notice about 1/32 wear out from rear sprocket (Al 6061-T6) and about the same front sprocket (Cast iron).
Now by natural evolution I am planning modify this drive to one stage reduction, and frame - it need suspension because rear rack with battery keep bending on path hole.
There is my beginning of this modification: http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=36559
1. Battery pack 7S10P – almost died. From 40AH from beginning only about 20Ah left with significant voltage sag under load. BatterySpace.com over rated current (10A continuous, and 20A peak 15sec) at least 2 – 3 times. I wrote feedback to them and now they wrapping this battery in green thermal shrink with lower ratings. I have $700 less in my pocket and I will never buy battery from them.
My average current at cruising speed 25-27 MPH was ~ 40Amps, and up to 85 during acceleration – this is what I was able read from CA. However CC ICE 100 shows up to 135A but never longer than 1 – 2sec.
2. Gear box – no significant wear. I change oil every 500 miles. Neodymium magnet really does job. On each oil replace all surface of magnet was coated with thin layer of metal powder. Once I even found small metal piece of metal of size of 1/16 inch. I could not locate where this came from, but if this thing could get on gear, that definitely could end the life for gearbox. Also I had tiny oil leak on main shaft but this is no big deal, I wipe once a week with paper towel.
3. Controller – CC Phoenix Ice 100 it does job very good when cruising speed is with full open throttle. With lower speed over heat in 1 – 2 min and then there is this annoying beeping until temp goes down.
4. Timing belt – I have to say Gates did great job designing this belt. Is strong like a hell. I put already 1600 miles since I change from chain. Is quiet, clean and transfer less vibration from gearbox. I notice about 1/32 wear out from rear sprocket (Al 6061-T6) and about the same front sprocket (Cast iron).
Now by natural evolution I am planning modify this drive to one stage reduction, and frame - it need suspension because rear rack with battery keep bending on path hole.
There is my beginning of this modification: http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=36559
Byte
1 kW
Wow, awesome, 2000 miles 
Nice!
Nice!
bigmoose
1 MW
Compliments! Very nice battery pack arrangement, and outstanding angle drive. As battery capacity has increased, I have been thinking that the efficiency loss using gears may not be as important as it once was. Your packaging arrangement with the angle drive and about 10:1 ratio is indeed, sweet!
rojitor
100 kW
You made your first project like a pro, i wanna see what's next.
slawek
10 mW
apyles said:
Hi Mate
I used gear set from grinder Dewalt D28499X Type2
Crown gear and bevel gear
I purchase them from http://www.ereplacementparts.com/
Slawek
bobc
10 kW
Oh dear.
I just acquired a broken 9" JCB grinder for its box.
And I've got 3 big outrunners on a single shaft to stuff into it -
Target is 0 - 60mph in 8 seconds.......
I just acquired a broken 9" JCB grinder for its box.
And I've got 3 big outrunners on a single shaft to stuff into it -
Target is 0 - 60mph in 8 seconds.......
slawek
10 mW
bobc said:
Hi bobc
I don't know what you have in mind, but if you want put them all on one bevel gear I can assure you, torque from motors will ground this little gear down.
Form my torque calculation, I already overloading this gearbox during acceleration by 2 times on small motor like Hacker A60-18L.
Unless you think about something like my concept V2 I had in mind for long time but I never did. I your case with three of them or more
Slawek
bobc
10 kW
It only has to work for a few seconds ;^)
Fair enough - it is a LOT more peak power than the 1500W or so of the 9" grinder. I think you're right, it will be destroyed quickly if not immediately. I think I'll do it anyway, on the basis that the gearbox is actually pretty robust & will be EP oiled in place of the factory grease.
I like your idea of having a small pinion for each motor - not an option for my collection of scrap parts I'm afraid.....
Fair enough - it is a LOT more peak power than the 1500W or so of the 9" grinder. I think you're right, it will be destroyed quickly if not immediately. I think I'll do it anyway, on the basis that the gearbox is actually pretty robust & will be EP oiled in place of the factory grease.
I like your idea of having a small pinion for each motor - not an option for my collection of scrap parts I'm afraid.....
Lebowski
10 MW
slawek said:
Slawek
I really like this look, like a 2 cilinder motorcycle. Can you imagine how cool
this would look with 2 colossus motors filling the bike's triangle ?
crossbreak
1 MW
+1 subscribed
The design is very neat. I guess it would be even possible to fasten the motor at the swing arm to get it closer to the rear axle and save frame space for lipos
The grinders have output speeds between 4500 and 6000rpm, or about 15.000 to 20.000 rpm at the input. At 2KW thats only about 1Nm. The motor you use shoudl do about 5Nm, if you use a 6374 outrunner like I want to.
What's the outer diameter of you larger bevel gear? I can get 75mm ones for less than 5€ online, thats why I ask. At my local supplier an equal gear set with induction hardened teeth costs 12times as much
The design is very neat. I guess it would be even possible to fasten the motor at the swing arm to get it closer to the rear axle and save frame space for lipos
The grinders have output speeds between 4500 and 6000rpm, or about 15.000 to 20.000 rpm at the input. At 2KW thats only about 1Nm. The motor you use shoudl do about 5Nm, if you use a 6374 outrunner like I want to.
What's the outer diameter of you larger bevel gear? I can get 75mm ones for less than 5€ online, thats why I ask. At my local supplier an equal gear set with induction hardened teeth costs 12times as much
nicobie
100 MW
You do nice work! Lots of clever ideas here.
Watch out for the cops in NYC. I hear that they take your bike if caught riding it in the city.
Watch out for the cops in NYC. I hear that they take your bike if caught riding it in the city.
slawek
10 mW
The design is very neat. I guess it would be even possible to fasten the motor at the swing arm to get it closer to the rear axle and save frame space for lipos
The grinders have output speeds between 4500 and 6000rpm, or about 15.000 to 20.000 rpm at the input. At 2KW thats only about 1Nm. The motor you use shoudl do about 5Nm, if you use a 6374 outrunner like I want to.
What's the outer diameter of you larger bevel gear? I can get 75mm ones for less than 5€ online, thats why I ask. At my local supplier an equal gear set with induction hardened teeth costs 12times as much
Thanks crossbreak
Motor in swing arm is my next project I have made motor 80-85 mechanical modification and rewindening.
This time will be 110 teeth rear pulley with custom bake disc 8,625" and 22 teeth on motor shaft, but is hard to find time to finish.
Your are right about calculations, but each machinery are designed with safety margin about 7-10 (except aeronautics) and I am using this margin in my application.
5Nm Hmmm, after I put new battery A123 pouch (these are freaking amazing) I saw on my CA max 223A. Motor have 150kV - You do the math. Although is geared to 23mph max. acceleration is
really ....
Large bevel - I can't tell you right now because I don't remember, but I will measure on next oil change. From case size it might be 75mm. But dude for 5€ you should order hundred and make some money on gear boxes drive. I payed over $50 for big one and about $40 for small. I wonder what is a durability these for 5€, but I will tell you this from my experience, durability is key factor especially in RC type drive. Currently I have 2497 miles on mine.
by nicobie » Wed May 09, 2012 3:03 pm
You do nice work! Lots of clever ideas here.
Watch out for the cops in NYC. I hear that they take your bike if caught riding it in the city.
I just hope it will never happen to me. I ride slow, and try do not stand out.
crossbreak
1 MW
Your 150KV drive does 10/150=0,0666..Nm/amp. At 223amps thats 15.5Nm. Your savety margine of 7-10 wont be taken in an chinese made angle grinder for a hundred bucks. I can only recommend to get better gears if you really want to use the 80-85. You get them here for example:
http://maedler.de/Product/1643/1619/273/292/296.aspx
I once saw that there is a similar company like maedler anywhere north of NY city.
As a rule of thumb, most outrunners are most efficient at about 40-60% of their rated torque and at about 60 to 80 percent of the calculated idle rpm. At 36Volts thats 4320rpm and 5Nm(2.1kW)
Your 15.5Nm are beyond any specs of this motor- don't try this too often. I would not run more than 100 or maybe 130 amps through this outrunner to get a better range
.
I ordered 2 of these gearsets (12 to 44 teeth) here: http://ar-tec.tradoria-shop.de/p/597475445/zahnraedersatz-zu-winkelschleifer-ws-230. Looks more durable than the ones in my 10€ 230mm angle grinder. I will use a Aeolian 170KV 6474 outrunner wired in Star so it has 100KV. I'll try a #25 chain which I have laying around here for the final drive with 12 to 45teeth. Thats a total ratio of 13,75. For the first tests I will use a cheap sensorless 12Fet controller which is modded to 60amps by reducing resistance of the shunt.
I see you use the orginal gearbox of the grinder. I would like to build a new more compact one. Sadly, one should not turn the gear set the "wrong" direction cause it won't last long then either.
http://maedler.de/Product/1643/1619/273/292/296.aspx
I once saw that there is a similar company like maedler anywhere north of NY city.
As a rule of thumb, most outrunners are most efficient at about 40-60% of their rated torque and at about 60 to 80 percent of the calculated idle rpm. At 36Volts thats 4320rpm and 5Nm(2.1kW)
Your 15.5Nm are beyond any specs of this motor- don't try this too often. I would not run more than 100 or maybe 130 amps through this outrunner to get a better range
. I ordered 2 of these gearsets (12 to 44 teeth) here: http://ar-tec.tradoria-shop.de/p/597475445/zahnraedersatz-zu-winkelschleifer-ws-230. Looks more durable than the ones in my 10€ 230mm angle grinder. I will use a Aeolian 170KV 6474 outrunner wired in Star so it has 100KV. I'll try a #25 chain which I have laying around here for the final drive with 12 to 45teeth. Thats a total ratio of 13,75. For the first tests I will use a cheap sensorless 12Fet controller which is modded to 60amps by reducing resistance of the shunt.
I see you use the orginal gearbox of the grinder. I would like to build a new more compact one. Sadly, one should not turn the gear set the "wrong" direction cause it won't last long then either.
slawek
10 mW
Hi crossbreak
I just have first bearings replace on small gear after 2550 miles, by the way I have check large bevel diameter - 81mm.
And on my next project will not have any gear box. I ma planing only one stage reduction by timing belt. 22 tooth on motor and 110 rear wheel.
I never wrote about this before but I have made very simple test in idle condition and turn out that gear box isn't very efficient.
This might be interesting for you and others.
Conditions of test - Idle run on 25V (my current voltage on bike)
Test 1
Hacker A60-18L. Power compsumption - 62W
Test 2
Hacker A60-18L + Gearbox. Power compsumption - 150W
Test 3
Hacker A60-18L + Gearbox + rear wheel trough timing belt. Power compsumption - 195W
Conclusion is only one: gearbox have worst efficiency in this setup.
I just have first bearings replace on small gear after 2550 miles, by the way I have check large bevel diameter - 81mm.
I use only oryginal gear set, not all gear box. The only thing is that, the big bevel comes with front cover and bearings already. Everything else is made by me.
And on my next project will not have any gear box. I ma planing only one stage reduction by timing belt. 22 tooth on motor and 110 rear wheel.
I never wrote about this before but I have made very simple test in idle condition and turn out that gear box isn't very efficient.
This might be interesting for you and others.
Conditions of test - Idle run on 25V (my current voltage on bike)
Test 1
Hacker A60-18L. Power compsumption - 62W
Test 2
Hacker A60-18L + Gearbox. Power compsumption - 150W
Test 3
Hacker A60-18L + Gearbox + rear wheel trough timing belt. Power compsumption - 195W
Conclusion is only one: gearbox have worst efficiency in this setup.
crossbreak
1 MW
Nice test - thx for that!
But:how tight did you postion the drive? You should be able to axially move the motor sprocket setting up the sprocket clearance. this has great influence
on idle friction
thats why most angle grinders mostly come with large clearance - and run so loudly
to set up the clearance you will have to
in small sized angle-gearboxes this is done by a screw which positions the dc-motor shaft by pushing this shaft (friction axial bearing).
to set up the clearance you will have to turn the screw (while the motor's running) till it's the most noiseless - while coming from large clearance
We should compare it with a big gear drive, I should just measure this with my 80100 and a 1:5 ratio steel/plastic straight-teethed spur gear set (module 2) that I once used in my fail 4kw project (the teeth of the sprocket cassette on the rear wheel quickly got cavity) -which is still an option when thinking about such a drive. Helical spur gearsets would be very nice, sadly they cost so much... isn't there a supply of casted ones like the ones of the angle grinders 8) ??
Maybe an electric lawn-mover?
But:how tight did you postion the drive? You should be able to axially move the motor sprocket setting up the sprocket clearance. this has great influence
on idle frictionthats why most angle grinders mostly come with large clearance - and run so loudly
to set up the clearance you will have to
in small sized angle-gearboxes this is done by a screw which positions the dc-motor shaft by pushing this shaft (friction axial bearing).
to set up the clearance you will have to turn the screw (while the motor's running) till it's the most noiseless - while coming from large clearance
We should compare it with a big gear drive, I should just measure this with my 80100 and a 1:5 ratio steel/plastic straight-teethed spur gear set (module 2) that I once used in my fail 4kw project (the teeth of the sprocket cassette on the rear wheel quickly got cavity) -which is still an option when thinking about such a drive. Helical spur gearsets would be very nice, sadly they cost so much... isn't there a supply of casted ones like the ones of the angle grinders 8) ??
Maybe an electric lawn-mover?
Okami
10 W
- Joined
- Jun 2, 2016
- Messages
- 95
Hi, very cool topic. Would have loved to see more details and info about the build!
Although the whole documentation and video was very good and detailed.
Planning on doing something similar myself, now im not sure if angle grinder reducer box I have chosen will fit for the job..
Although the whole documentation and video was very good and detailed.
Planning on doing something similar myself, now im not sure if angle grinder reducer box I have chosen will fit for the job..
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