Spun front axle and flew over the bars @ 25mph

[methods]

BTW Methods I read this thread with interest and wondered if you have reached any final conclusions about the cause of the accident and the high regen currents you saw.

Sure.
As my last post stated I tested the controller and it works so this was not an issue of a shorted controller.
There is no update about the regen currents other than that a peddle first 20A xlyte controller will regen at any motor speed over your battery voltage.
In this case 25mph down hill is more than enough to create *substantial* regenerative current on a low battery.

As far as testing:

Today or tomorrow I am going to buy a few 10mm wrenches and rebuild the front drops.
I have to get my mig welder out and do a bunch of prep so it will probably take a couple days to finish it up.
After the bike is rebuilt I have to rebuild the battery pack as I snipped it for my other bike.
I will then faithfully reproduce the conditions present on that day to prove out my arguments about the regen levels.
I will have the digicam pointed at the CA to show the regen current ramp.

-methods

 

[methods]

The best option would be something like a Surly steel fork, or what I have, a GT cromo fork with milled steel torque arms bilaterally:

I still think those are the best damn looking torque arms I have ever seen.
Bravo again!

-methods

 

[Reid Welch]

I don't like torque wrench specs when dealing with indifferent (unknown quality) cut thread, chinese steels, steel dropouts that may be soft cast, or malleable, or heat treated (we can't know); lubricants on the threads wildly vary the "torque" application onto the thread, wrench-reading be damned.

I built and rebuilt Model Ts. There were no torque wrenches then. You worked by feel.

I always, always, just wrench by hand. First tight but not too tight to damage/gall/overstretch. Then ride mildly (whether it's a T and its live rear axle nut, or a bike's front hub motor dropout. Then recheck. Then ride, recheck at intervals. Green Locktite.

These dropouts are "C" wrenches, themselves, of unknow-able quality.

It seems to me that a fix would not be an auto lug nut with the cone face, facing IN toward, and tending, to "spread" the dropout's "C";
but that's an academic worry.

How about a C CLAMP for the little dropout; a doohickey of metal, bolted over and surrounding the dropout's entire end, two piece (split) and
thus, preventing, any possibility of a dropout spreading open like a cone adjusting wrench mal-used with a hammer: spread legs.

Perhaps there's some practical reason why such a thing could not be done: a safety clamp preventing the SPREADING of a steel dropout.
Aluminum? By 1910, aluminum in early autos had gained a reputation it would never really lose. The practiced mechanics did not call it "aluminum";
they called it "Trouble Metal"; "the trouble metal". Crankcase arms and anything of aluminum, of the alloys available then, was suspect by practical mechanics,

to whom an "impact wrench" was just this: a cold chisel and hammer on digging into and then turning a rounded or rusted-on nut.

Me motto: tighten a little and tighten often and don't apply power beyond what a puny, two-flat axle and its contaniment, can take.

I am no physicist nor experienced ebiker so disregard anything above if it sounds like nonsense. But I do know Model Ts, and never had a mechanical
mishap not of my own cause; and even then: it was only a minor failure, like a radiator leak or finger cut by an errant cotter pin when wiping down the machine.

 

[317537]

I was on a trail BMX Dyno riding at 27 kph enjoying the view and hit a railway sleeper post buried deep into the ground.

My chest slammed into the handle bars and over them I went. I heard the wind whoosh past my ears. I almost broke my ribs, well they felt that way.

In mid air my arms flung behind me and I felt my chest cavity almost spilt into to two. I hit the ground with an awfull thud. Dung my shin, grazed my legs and knee, and took a nice hole out of my elbow.

I laid on my back in a type of anger pain moaning why me lol. A car stopped and waited a little I got up and I hobbled the bike home as I couldn’t straighten the handle bars due to my injuries.

The Dyno BMX mini trail e-bike didn’t have as much as a scratch nor did it have a buckle in the rim. The only casualty that night was me. My shin must of had a good crushing as I had this huge lump under the graze that raised over an inch high.

One thing is I used to get a cramp inside my chest that was getting annoying. When I felt my chest cavity almost split something cracked inside there and now its fixed and no more cramps..

I was lucky but YOU my friend are luckier.

 

[dogman dan]

A dropout actually designed for an ebike motor would be really nice. They would be thick and beefy so they wouldn't just slice a round part onto the axle, and they would definitely have a way to close the bottom one way or another. I'd love to see the thing bolt adjustable top and bottom, so the dropout literally clamps down on the flat of the axle. Maybe you could even make the dropout similar to a vise grip pliers ? In any case, in my mind, I see some kind of solution that would literaly be safe to run with the nuts removed from the axle! this rig could be built into a replacement front fork, or made to be welded onto a steel rear frame. Someday soon, ebike frames will have this kind of stuff built in. A few good lawsuits ought to do it, and we can count on americans to sue.

 

[317537]

Someday soon, ebike frames will have this kind of stuff built in. A few good lawsuits ought to do it, and we can count on americans to sue.

Yer sue the beggers. That will have some new laws introduced that e-bikers will just love.

Built in stuff on frames is not going to stop people just using the cheaper wall mart frame.

With the front hubs maybe they should sell the hub "only" with forks that are safe with the a reinforced longer axle slot and more elongated axle shaft to match..

Here in Oz we dont buy front hubs as we know them to be a safety risk from the word go. Most retailers wont sell the front hubs over here for the dsame reason.

 

[methods]

I have got to be honest. . ..

Now my regular ebike is a 100V 5305 that goes 45mph and will lift a wheelie all the way through an intersection even with all the weight up front.
A motorcycle really. . . Based on the toughest frame I could find, a downhill frame.
I wear full riding gear **EVERY TIME** I ride it, gloves, armored jacket, full face helmet

So when I built this silly front hub "toy" as I thought of it, I did not take it seriously
To me a 48V, 20A, 24mph toy.

That was the problem.
It was not a toy and I did not take it seriously.
I put it on a cheap frame and did a sloppy install without a torque arm.

This is what I fear will bring the downfall of the electric bikes. People not taking them seriously enough.
Guy at my work rides a 24mph bike in t-shirt and shorts every day.

Now some may argue that you can go that fast on a regular bike in spandex. . .

I would argue that this is different. If you are going 24mph on a regular bike you are PAYING ATTENTION
An ebike breeds complacency
Whats 24mph?
Sit back, watch the trees, look up at the birds, splat.

-methods

 

[skydog]

EBikes breeds complacency.
Very good point.
Yeah, some can ride 25mph on their regular bike but the vast majority are doing 15mph or less.
And a lot of the coming wave of ebikers will be making the conversion because they can't keep up even those low speeds.
Maybe its evolution, (nothing personal), kind of like those little old ladies that have a hard time parking their Buick but are driving a 40' motorhome through the Rockies.
And interestingly, if and when there are lawsuits, they'll be pointing to this website to confirm there was a known problem ...

Maybe this should be another thread: EBike Legal or Things that I hate about EBikes.

 

[AussieJester]

EBikes breeds complacency.
Very good point.
Yeah, some can ride 25mph on their regular bike but the vast majority are doing 15mph or less.

I agree it is a very good point, the Lycras are out on the rode ALOT more than the 'average Joe' that rides to work
or the local shop a few times a week, they travel hundreds of kilometers a week training and would be pretty experienced cyclists. Then you get Mr Jones that decides to dust off the old 10 speed that hasnt seen action in 10 years instal a electric motor kit in a couple of hours and be off tearing about at 25mph...only a matter of time before something goes wrong me thinkz ;-S

 

[317537]

Rofl.

45 mph?

My e-bike is aussie legal and lucky to reach 20mph.

I put it up to 48v and gets 26 mph and I had to put it back to 36v because my forks were going to break. I would of kept this voltage if I had lighter batts and replaced the forks with better ones and the expense seemed not to be worth the worry. I was used to the slow 20mph and I would of had to adjust my riding skill. Even at 18mph the injuries I sustained with out protective gear was enough to worry me.

I just put 46lbs (36v) of batts and even now I'm going to upgrade my forks to a set I have here in the garage. Not what you would use but a lot better than I'm using now. If I used even 60v here in OZ I would be like the light to the moth>> (police)... Things are much more strict here.

 

[317537]

Where this thread has lead to has got me thinking quite a bit.

Safety is all important. Lucky I haven’t had a single mechanical failure that has lead to injury as yet. But to consider a 48v 27mph bike that nearly kills someone is not in my mind a "toy". Toy does not fit the description. Maybe the poster has want for a better word and I understand already, oops.

Yet I am perplexed that my 36v work horses maybe considered toys too. Not!

These bikes are tools. My family survives on these bikes as it would cost me $150 per fortnight to do what I need to do in cab fares and there is no way a taxi cab can do what my 36v e-bike can do unless I can employ the driver to drive me around town looking for the best bargains. So the bikes save me money. We had to deliver some ride ons at xmas as the person had no room in the boot for them. The bike and trailer did it easy with some improvising.

This is sad but true.

My wife had some idiot undo the rear nuts, the front nuts on the wheels, the handle bars, and the left brake lever pin was undone all the way. She rode this 12 kms parked it out the shop where it was sabotaged then rode the bike 2kms and called me to complain about some weird behaviour.

I thought OMG I forgot something. I gots there and the derailer was hanging off on the chain, the handle bars were all the wobbles and I missed the brake calliper until the next day. I though wow she got 2kms down the road, the axel didn’t spin out and she was still in one piece. Yes in working order I would allow a child to ride such a bike.

The worst accident I’ve had on a bike was on a BMX non e-bike type. I cracked my skull open, gave myself an elephant man black eye shut for 4 weeks and knocked unconscious for 2 hours, just going down hill and losing control in gravel on a sharp turn.

Really my cumbersome ebike can not even go as fast as a normal bike even on a flat as I’ve been taken over a few times. I know people big enough to do real damage on a hill without electric motors. Safety is a concern with forks in general regardless of whether there is a hub on it or not.

I guess fork manufacturers should keep things in check.

 

[Mark_A_W]

Crikey...8 pages of arguing when all that needs to be done is this:

Eight thousand kilometres. 2 broken frames. 2 broken pedals. Broken rack. Broken seatpost. 2 broken rims.

Forks and dropouts are ROCK SOLID.

 

[Mark_A_W]

Here in Oz we dont buy front hubs as we know them to be a safety risk from the word go. Most retailers wont sell the front hubs over here for the dsame reason.

Bullshit.

Utter and total bullshit.

The majority of hub motors available here are front wheel motors. Most also state that only a steel fork should be used - but I disagree, only a monster triple clamp fork with custom reinforcements should be used

 

[AussieJester]

My e-bike is aussie legal and lucky to reach 20mph.

LoL you must be one of a handful pal i have only seen one other member here from OZ
with a 250watt motor and its a female LoL... How do you think the police are going to
test your motor on the side of the road? 3 'experts' in a Sydney court case last year
weren't able to determine the true wattage of a scooters electric motor a traffic cop
has buckleys...500watt hub motor with a 250watt sticker and your good to go

I'm with Mark too...i seen plenty of front hub motors forsale here in Australia.

Nice torque arms there to Mark.

 

[methods]

It is official,

I HAVE REPEATED THE PROBLEM

After all that arguing about sub standard dropouts and torque arms and torque wrenches and macaroni-n-cheese and hot dogs and I told you so's and I woulda-nevers. . .

I finally got around to welding the forks back up.
All you guys who's wives make you go hide in the garage to weld can scratch your heads while I drag the ol'Lincoln right into the kitchen to take care of business.



Granted my kitchen is a total disaster area. . .
I built it out of 2x4's and we call it the $80 kitchen
Long story short I bought an abandoned house for 0.5 Million dollars that was owned by an insane cat collector who died 2 years before.
Don't ask.

I welded up a couple of 10mm wrenches in short order
Those of you who would prefer CNC machined aerospace quality steel please refrain from comments. . . I am from the Ghetto and this is how we do it

View attachment 1

So the chopper is back in action. . . or so I thought. . .



I put on my jacket, gloves, and helmet and roll out to the street
If you recall, I had tested the motor/controller out on the bench a few weeks back so I *thought* everything was cool
I rolled across my lawn and down on the street and nothing.

Hmmm.... I scratched my head.
Maybe I hooked the motor up backwards?
So since this is a peddle first I started rolling backwards down the street till I hit about 5mph then gave the throttle a twist
Nothing.

Ok. . .
I started peddling forward again and BRRRRRRRR.... The motor kicked in.
SWEEET!

err..... or not.....

I got going about 23mph on a flat road
there were some turd-bag kids playing up ahead so I let off the throttle in the manner I am used to, I let go and let it snap back

SAME EXACT THING HAPPENED AGAIN THAT HAPPENED TO ME THE NIGHT I ATE CHIT

The front motor started growling like I poured a cup of nuts and bolts in there
It just about locked up and I came to a stop half way over the bars

When I snapped the throttle back the motor was dead-shorted, a straight up crowbar brake
I have no doubt in my mind that at least one of the coils was shorted
Thats why I only saw 14A of regen back to the batteries. . . I think the current was just shorting across a coil

The noise was real growly and not smooth like you hear when all three phases are presented with the same impedence
It sounded unbalanced

So. . . Duh. . . It boils down to another low-quality Xlyte box with some sort of small short.
I am sure I will be able to find it within minutes of opening it up
I modified my last xlyte to do 100V @90A so this will be a snap
I still have a bunch of the good fets so I will upgrade it while I am in there.

This is precisely why I forked over the big bucks for a Kelly on my proper bike. That bad boy cost me $700 bucks but it was worth every dime in peace of mind. Anyone who has ever opened up a xlyte box to see the crappy hot-glue standoffs, capton-tape isolation on the fets, half thought out power handling, and forgotten traces knows that quality control is not #1.

-methods

 

[317537]

My e-bike is aussie legal and lucky to reach 20mph.

LoL you must be one of a handful pal i have only seen one other member here from OZ
with a 250watt motor and its a female LoL... How do you think the police are going to
test your motor on the side of the road? 3 'experts' in a Sydney court case last year
weren't able to determine the true wattage of a scooters electric motor a traffic cop
has buckleys...500watt hub motor with a 250watt sticker and your good to go

I'm with Mark too...i seen plenty of front hub motors forsale here in Australia.

Nice torque arms there to Mark.

Nothing wrong with being legal man as you just need to get busted by radar and here is where the action be's.. The lady just around the corner was done doing 40km on a scooter and fined and told to have the vehicle registered. the link below unrelated.

http://www.lawlink.nsw.gov.au/scjud...5b215f2d50231469ca25745e000bbebc?OpenDocument

Please note: all motors for rear only: two reasons
1.some safety concerns for some types of front forks

We are the few people in my area riding E-bikes and the others that are, are all legal. We stand out like a red flag to a bull, and the cops are always watching, slow when they see us. this is freaking rural queesnland you know, and the police are right onto them. They even do U turns and pull us over to question us. They speed tested us on a down hill run three days running trying. One lady on the street saw my wife, stopped her and asked her why we are allowed to keep these machines on the road as her husband is getting fined always on his. Answer is, 36v 200 watt, max speed 35kph.

Phew that said. As I read elsewhere all it takes is you hit someone and kill them and youre looking at man slaughter. vehicle Inpoundment will result and some gaol time.

Have a nice day

And no I dont care if you consider my bike's too slow for fun, they are tools for survival.

 

[AussieJester]

That is the court case i was referring to there was a thread on ES about it around the time it happened discussing the case....the whole transcript of the case was linked and it detailed how 3 "experts" were bought in by the prosecution to testify to the motors output none were able to verify its exact wattage HENCE the prosecution in order to get the conviction argued that the pedals weren't a primary source of propulsion the electric motor was making it ILLEGAL...this also was a SCOOTER NOT a bicycle. She could of had a 1200watt motor in this instance it wouldnt have made a difference she wasn't convicted for having a motor in excess of 200watt as they weren't able to determine the wattage at all! which is why i referred to it in the first place...This case alone caused the closure of one large electric scooter retailer in NSW, even made the national news at the time.

Matt (nickname 1000watt) on this forum is a Firemen, he was recently at accident scene and talking with 3 police officers regarding the 48cc and electric bicycles (he has one of each) ...not one of them was clear on the law!!!...they simply said unless your riding around like an idiot on the bicycle we wouldn't take a second look...Reason Matt was so concerned was not the fact he uses a 1000watt motor but rather he has no usable pedals on any of his motorized bikes and has been cruising around Perth City (he works in the dead center of town in the Fire departments building) and has never once been pulled over by Police and questioned. His bike would attract more attention than yours to i put money on it heres a pic of his 48cc (which in fact is actually the ILLEGAL "80cc china gurl motor" NOT the Legal 48cc )

Incidentally he is in the process of swapping out the 80cc ICE motor for his brushless 1000watt cyclone motor, this thing will FLOG with that in it, i have seen this bike in person it is a work of art...

Again just for the record i never said there was anything wrong with being "legal" i said your one of the few here that are. Furthermore i couldn't care less what speed your bike goes and never hinted in the first place that i did, pitty you get so much attention from the Police i haven't neither has Matt or any of the members of the social group that gathers weekly for inner city rides... Must be a Queensland thing...if your legal though why are you so worried about the Police in the first place?

You have a nice day too...

Methods Damn your lucky dude...could have soooo easily been "take two" If i go ahead with my rc motor plans in the near future my Kelly Controller will be for sale? Good deal for you I would even spring for freight!

All you guys who's wives make you go hide in the garage to weld can scratch your heads while I drag the ol'Lincoln right into the kitchen to take care of business.

Bows down to the master hehehehe

Kim

 

[317537]

BTW I love the tinkering and like to see people improving on the original design..

I like to see new ideas and people posting their accidents and failures like this and would encourage this type of forum activity for all to learn from.

Thanks for the OP, the honesty and crap he has endured during this thread.

Before we create some huge court case we should be responsible and not tell people on the internet that breaking the law is easy to do nor should it be fragrantly ignored. Sure go ahead break it, and break the speed of sound too while you are at it. Just don’t make out it is easily done as everwhere and everyone is different.

Not every one understands the physics of e-bikes and we should only promote legality for on road use.. I might seem like a tea timer however I don’t like hoons legends nor people that massage their E-bike penises. *Bows to no one*

If I was to say you can get away with a 144v mongoose dinky that approached 150 kph on flats without pedals, Na mate shell be right coppas will just ignore yas, Id expect to be paying any idiot that listen to such blahage liabilities and fines that ensued.

However!

You have sweetened my taste for faster things though. I’m thinking of giving the heads around here on their ICE trail bikes something to sit back and think about.

I hate the idea of being limited to 200 watts. However I am not limited, not even close.. I’m going to build a kick arse mini dirt trail bike for my son and myself to ride on weekends for non road use only, and I for one, for this project, am not considering a front hub.. Yeah I can build a fast bike if I want. Just I don’t have to break the law,
I haven’t had to use a welder for anything yet either. My wife wont lets me buy one.

 

[AussieJester]

I haven’t had to use a welder for anything yet either. My wife wont lets me buy one.

Checkout ebay for a 130amp gasless mig welder i picked up one not so long ago for 275 delivered, has built me 4 frames thus far yeah its a cheap no name brand but works as well as welders 3 times the price
Theres a heap of onlin video tutorials if you haven't welded before? im guessing you havent? With a roll or so of wore for practice you should be right to have a crack at your project...best of luck.

 

[JCG]

It is official,

I HAVE REPEATED THE PROBLEM

Oh man, I am sorry to hear about this. The NC hub motor is proving to be a challenge on my end too; reading through this thread and a few others I wanted to float an idea for all hubs that have a 12 mm stator bolt.

A 12 mm bolt with flats milled into it to create a 10 mm slot-fitting shape has flats on it that are a bit over six mm wide. If one end of this stator bolt has no wires going through it, could you drill a couple of 5 mm holes through it (3/16" if you prefer) and use through bolts to hold a fork assembly? It seems like getting tough enough bolts (or pins) could resist the shearing forces involved. Is this a dumb idea? If I get another failure with my NC hub motor I'll consider it.

 

[methods]

I should clarify:

By repeating the problem I mean the root problem. . . The instant onset of strong regen.
My new forks did not spin out.
They are quite stout!

-methods

 

[JCG]

A 12 mm bolt with flats milled into it to create a 10 mm slot-fitting shape has flats on it that are a bit over six mm wide. If one end of this stator bolt has no wires going through it, could you drill a couple of 5 mm holes through it (3/16" if you prefer) and use through bolts to hold a fork assembly? It seems like getting tough enough bolts (or pins) could resist the shearing forces involved. Is this a dumb idea? If I get another failure with my NC hub motor I'll consider it.

I had another failure... and success with this idea! Pictures are in the build thread here, post #41:

http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=7511&p=124034#p124034

 

[methods]

I like the way you are thinking!
Super stout

Instead of trying to squeeze perpendicular to the problem you take it straight on.
That makes sense.

-methods

 

[Affliction]

I saw the photo's of the drilling of the axle to mount a crossbolt and you have weakened the axle significantly by doing this!
There is not much metal to begin with on the 12 mm axle and you have reduced the strength by 2/3 !
The axle diameter before the threads, on the inside of the forks is approximately 20 mm. This gives alot more surface area to mount a torque arm on.
You just need to grind some flats on this larger diameter surface and fabricate a torque arm to fit. Maybe grind to fit a 18 mm wrench?
I think this would be alot better than relying on the puny axle threads to prevent a spinout.
Ben....

 

[billvon]

I saw the photo's of the drilling of the axle to mount a crossbolt and you have weakened the axle significantly by doing this!

He has drilled the axle outside the dropouts. Thus the axle to dropout strength is maintained; the external portion of the axle must transfer torque only.

The one potential failure mechanism I see would be in tension, if the bolt is tightened too much. The normal force on that shaft from the nut _is_ through the now-weaker area.