Starting to get pissed at the bike situation

[argggh]

Although it's not necessarily the bicycle community's fault (I'm not pissed at anyone, just in general at the situation), I noticed a trend I find frustrating.

I was browsing Google searching for advice on affordable fixies and each time I landed in a forum thread where the OP was looking for feedback on a low to moderately priced fixie they we're purportably interested in, it would inevitably be shot down and the only legitimate choice offered would be the Kilo TT or Kilo TT Pro. The Sole had a "low quality frame". The Wyatt wasn't well known enough and had "low quality" parts. Even Mission Bicycles was not good enough for the price based on what you were supposedly getting. So now we have thousand dollar bikes that are not good enough. Do you see what this means? Not only are the sellers failing the consumer in price, but even if you had the money, they are failing in quality as well at that price. That means even higher prices for an actual purchasable bike in the future.

Now it can possibly be argued that the naysayers had a point in each case. But I want to know how did it get to the point in the bicycle community where there are so few legitimate choices now? Buying a bicycle was supposed to be a freeing experience but I feel it's becoming similar to buying a car where, based on your budget, you are forced into a more and more constrained choice of selections.

You're telling me there is only one legitimate choice for a moderately priced fixie? The Kilo TT and that's it?

Has the bicycle market really failed the bicycle consumer so utterly???

Thanks for listening. Rant over but I'd really like someone to tell me it's not so. I don't want to see the bicycle market go the way of the car market.

 

[NeilP]

No, I'd say it is more to do with people being ridiculously picky and slagging perfectly usable stuff off for the most minor of reasons. Rather liek the camera market where people pore over the detail spec of a new camera and its sensor and complain and knock a product because its colour rendition in jpegs when viewed at 1000x magnification shows slight fringing that would only be noticable if the image was blown up to the size of a motorway banner.

People jsut love to moan and pick holes in something, chances are, if you rode any of the bikes they are trashing , you'd find them all perfectly usable and make your own choice based on your size, shape and riding style

 

[argggh]

No, I'd say it is more to do with people being ridiculously picky and slagging perfectly usable stuff off for the most minor of reasons. Rather liek the camera market where people pore over the detail spec of a new camera and its sensor and complain and knock a product because its colour rendition in jpegs when viewed at 1000x magnification shows slight fringing that would only be noticable if the image was blown up to the size of a motorway banner.

People jsut love to moan and pick holes in something, chances are, if you rode any of the bikes they are trashing , you'd find them all perfectly usable and make your own choice based on your size, shape and riding style

Thank you. I mean, is a hi ten steel frame bike really just going to break on someone from just casual riding? The way some forum members talk it sounds like all these millions of bikes made with hi ten steel are un-ridable, all a complete waste of resources and would melt like butter under your own weight. The impression it leaves on the consumer is you might as well be talking about bike frames made of twigs. Just because there are better steels automatically means the previous steel isn't good enough now.

 

[John in CR]

It's not much different around here with the never ending promotion of Crystalyte overpriced garbage.

 

[NeilP]

Think tha is probably a different thing, cheaply made stuff, we know is not great quality, that is made to a low price and does its job to a degree..as opposed to good quality stuff that people say is crap because of minor perceived faults in the spec, where in real life situations no one will ever notice the difference

 

[The fingers]

For years the guitar marketplace has been flooded with over-priced junk made from wood more suitable for pencils and toothpicks. People go around knocking certain brand names which used to be industry leaders in favor of bolted neck,, machine made, tinny toned, mass produced, formica-finished milk crates that sell to kids who can't tune them without an electronic tuner. I would rather own an original geniune Mickey Mouse guitar. :wink:
It's sort of like how the surf leash made the water crowded with kooks that can't even swim. Now buzzing, stinking, wave runners are towing their instant stupor heros on skis into giant waves. :lol:
A bike with square wheels, gears, and a steering wheel would be a piece of art worth pondering; companies however are pandering to dummies while pretending to be experts so their flim-flam bikes , plastic guitars, and pop out surfboards sell well to the masses.
A general problem in the contemporary church as well revealed in P.T. Barnum's mis-quote by a popular televangelist who said "There's a sucker born again every minute." Its a one-hit, one-wave wonder won world today.

 

[amberwolf]

Thank you. I mean, is a hi ten steel frame bike really just going to break on someone from just casual riding?

Probably not, given that in my bikes (like CrazyBike2) which are built from old frames and random junk that could be just about any kind of steel (and I knwo for sure some of it is crappy steel, coming from retail store fixtures and signage holders!) I don't see too many failures and that's on a bike that's probalby heavily overloaded, not well-designed, and is definitely abused. :lol:

I expect if I didn't have all the heavy motor and batteyr stuff on it, and didn't use it ot haul >100-200lbs of cargo *and* pull a St Bernard in a trailer, on roads with potholes I can't always see till too late, nothing would ever have broken on it despite how badly it's made out of crappy materials.

 

[Hornet dave]

BFSSFG is brutal. Quite entertaining but brutal. Ive been happy with my bikes direct purchase (not a kilo tt). Id buy from them again.

 

[Chalo]

I was browsing Google searching for advice on affordable fixies

There's your problem. You you were feeling profoundly, slobberingly retarded; you threw yourself into a nest of random slobbering retards, and you got some on you. No surprise there.

Fixed gearing is a drivetrain, not a bike. If you want a good fixed gear bike, cheap, then get a good cheap used bike with horizontal dropouts and add a fixed gear rear wheel. That approach can land you an actually OK fix for the price of a sucker-born-every-minute crapheap from a nameless eBay seller. Or go ahead and continue hunting online for "affordable fixies" and continue to get retard slobber on you.

All the bikesdirect.com fixies I have worked on (Mercier, Windsor, Vilano, etc.) have sucked. All the no-name eBay fixies I have worked on, and the State bikes, Republic bikes, what have you, have sucked even more-- which is remarkable. And though they require more care and diligence than real bicycles, they inevitably get less. I can't tell you how many times I've had a cheap me-too fix in my shop that was missing two or more chainring bolts out of five. Heck, most of them never even get lubricant or air until they stop going.

It was at least five years ago when I noticed that fixies had already jumped the shark so badly that there were high schoolers and balding fortysomething dudes coming in asking for them, usually not knowing what fixed gearing meant. In my neck of the woods, most of the chump market for fixed gears has moved on to something else (be it more functional bicycles, hardtail chopper motorcycles, or beards so long that they preclude riding anything with an open chain drive), leaving committed hipsters and bike polo players in charge of the category.

EDIT:

P.S. - High tensile steel frames are typically not made to a weaker spec than chromoly steel frames. The manufacturer-- even a rinky-dink online seller-- doesn't want to get sued by people who got hurt when their bike folded up underneath them. They just use more steel if the steel is weaker. I do the same thing when I'm building frames from scratch. The weaker the material I'm using, the more of it I use.

So that means a hi-ten frame will be heavier and usually stiffer than a chromoly frame. Unless it's built with genuine incompetence and/or callous indifference (e.g. Walmart bikes), it will probably be less likely to fail than a lighter frame made of better material.

 

[John in CR]

LOL, now fixies aren't "real bicycles" either.

 

[Brentis]

I was browsing Google searching for advice on affordable fixies

...
It was at least five years ago when I noticed that fixies had already jumped the shark so badly that there were high schoolers and balding fortysomething dudes coming in asking for them, usually not knowing what fixed gearing meant. In my neck of the woods, most of the chump market for fixed gears has moved on to something else (be it more functional bicycles, hardtail chopper motorcycles, or beards so long that they preclude riding anything with an open chain drive), leaving committed hipsters and bike polo players in charge of the category...

Kiler, that's all I was thinking reading this thread.
I thought only hipster douches rode fixie(at least around here).
Skinny jeans, trimmed beards and ironic glasses won't save them from crashing spectacularly in downtown traffic. Seen it a couple of times.
Though most often they can be seen sipping coffee, playing on the hip new gadget while posing pretty in front of their $1000+ bike they cannot safely ride.
Killer.

 

[Brentis]

LOL, now fixies aren't "real bicycles" either.

I think they are, but many consumers of, underestimate the skill and focus required of riding a fixie.
I hated it. Might have adjusted to it, but it felt unnatural to me.
Didn't see the advantage to a single speed and a brake.

 

[argggh]

I was browsing Google searching for advice on affordable fixies

There's your problem. You you were feeling profoundly, slobberingly retarded; you threw yourself into a nest of random slobbering retards, and you got some on you. No surprise there.

Fixed gearing is a drivetrain, not a bike. If you want a good fixed gear bike, cheap, then get a good cheap used bike with horizontal dropouts and add a fixed gear rear wheel. That approach can land you an actually OK fix for the price of a sucker-born-every-minute crapheap from a nameless eBay seller. Or go ahead and continue hunting online for "affordable fixies" and continue to get retard slobber on you.

All the bikesdirect.com fixies I have worked on (Mercier, Windsor, Vilano, etc.) have sucked. All the no-name eBay fixies I have worked on, and the State bikes, Republic bikes, what have you, have sucked even more-- which is remarkable. And though they require more care and diligence than real bicycles, they inevitably get less. I can't tell you how many times I've had a cheap me-too fix in my shop that was missing two or more chainring bolts out of five. Heck, most of them never even get lubricant or air until they stop going.

It was at least five years ago when I noticed that fixies had already jumped the shark so badly that there were high schoolers and balding fortysomething dudes coming in asking for them, usually not knowing what fixed gearing meant. In my neck of the woods, most of the chump market for fixed gears has moved on to something else (be it more functional bicycles, hardtail chopper motorcycles, or beards so long that they preclude riding anything with an open chain drive), leaving committed hipsters and bike polo players in charge of the category.

EDIT:

P.S. - High tensile steel frames are typically not made to a weaker spec than chromoly steel frames. The manufacturer-- even a rinky-dink online seller-- doesn't want to get sued by people who got hurt when their bike folded up underneath them. They just use more steel if the steel is weaker. I do the same thing when I'm building frames from scratch. The weaker the material I'm using, the more of it I use.

So that means a hi-ten frame will be heavier and usually stiffer than a chromoly frame. Unless it's built with genuine incompetence and/or callous indifference (e.g. Walmart bikes), it will probably be less likely to fail than a lighter frame made of better material.

LOL...I somehow find this post hilarious. It reminds me of the disgruntled mechanic from Seinfeld.

One day of browsing online and, you'll be happy to know, I'm already over large, lumbering fixies. It dawned on me you can get the same minimalistic elegance and class of a large fixie in a folding bike, specifically, a Brompton but Dahon's and some others capture it too in their own way. In fact, I think the esthetic attraction to big, classic looking bicycles is largely misplaced in our time and folding bikes are the future..or should be. The only reason people rode and owned large bicycles in the past is because folders hadn't been invented. What do you need with a large, unwieldy bike (except for maybe mountain bikes) taking up so much space when we have folders now?

The trouble stems from how we look for a certain kind of bicycle. When we are looking for a simple and classy looking bike today we inevitably look to the past styles for them and all we see are large non-folding bikes so we naturally conclude we have to get a large bike to capture the same elegance, simplicity and class of the past.
But elegance, simplicity and class are not exclusive to large bikes. Folders can be given and posses the same qualities. Plus folders have the added advantages of being more portable, lighter, smaller, etc. It seems to me folders are not just a different kind of bike. They are a natural evolution of the bike. Early bikes had the drawback of being traditionally and, in some cases, prohibitively large and unwieldy. So when bike makers worked out the engineering to make them smaller and easier to handle, such as with the introduction of the Safety Bicycle, they took that path and never looked back. (Nobody seriously produces or rides a Penny Farthing anymore except for nostalgia.) So why do we still produce large bicycles when we have bicycles of tremendous quality and beauty that can fit in a suitcase?

 

[neptronix]

Whatever. I buy cheap bikes and upgrade the parts. Usually with used stuff from my local bicycle collective.

Even in ebike use, i can't tell the difference between a $30 derailleur and a $200 derailleur or a set of $50 cranks versus $500 cranks..

But some people really think the cost difference is just totally worth it and will spend $5,000 on a bike to save.... 1-4 pounds?

No thanks, i've ridden bikes i've paid no more than $250 for all my life, powered and unpowered and never felt wanting to spend 10 times more. Maybe if the bike was really 10 times better.. or at least 5 times better!

My favorite bike of all time that i put easily 10,000 miles on was a chromoly trek 830 that i spent $75 on used. When the frame eventually fell to rust, i transferred the components to a lighter Trek aluminum frame that cost me $65 and my own labor + $20 of bike shop labor to get back up and running..

What i've spent on electric bits over the years is another matter

 

[Chalo]

So why do we still produce large bicycles when we have bicycles of tremendous quality and beauty that can fit in a suitcase?

Well, the short answer is because ride quality is intimately wedded to wheel diameter.

Penny-farthings were the way they were because the tires of the day were solid rubber rods. Thus the wheels had to do the lion's share of smoothing out the terrible road surfaces of the day. Safety bicycles, which is to say the kind we know and recognize, had to wait for the advent of pneumatic tires before they made sense for riding on normal surfaces. Many variations of tire width and wheel size were tried before 27" wheels with narrow tires (less than 1-1/2 inch) and 26" wheels with fatter tires (1-1/2 to 2-1/4 inch) were settled on as the smallest ones that yielded good ride quality and modest rolling resistance on industrialized 20th century roads.

Smaller wheels than 26" are used to accommodate children, stunt riding, or as you point out, compact folding. But small wheels come with efficiency and comfort compromises that mean they'll never be the norm. That doesn't mean they can't be the norm for you, though. Just be aware of their drawbacks.

 

[argggh]

Smaller wheels than 26" are used to accommodate children, stunt riding, or as you point out, compact folding. But small wheels come with efficiency and comfort compromises that mean they'll never be the norm. That doesn't mean they can't be the norm for you, though. Just be aware of their drawbacks.

Yea, I kind of knew that but didn't want to admit it. For me, speed is not essential (and if it is, again, incorporating the modern instead of looking back, most any bike today can be fitted with an electric motor, as my Speed P8 is) but I suppose if you really want to cover some distance fast (without an electric motor) a large and light road bike with thin tires would still be ideal.

But if you think about it, a lot of casual riders, like the hipsters, don't really ride large bikes for speed. They are just riding them because they are trendy.

 

[Modbikemax]

Fixies are velodrome track bikes. I have ridden one once back in the 70s at the local velodrome. Quite difficult to get the hang of. They are fast because of their stripped down light weight nature but also no brakes because you don't want the guy in front slamming the brakes on when you are inches from his back wheel at 40kph.
I believe they date back to a much earlier time when roads were mostly bad and the closed circuit board track racing drew large crowds.
The fixie culture is part of the retro fad where young girls are wearing their great grandmothers cloths and the guys have haircuts and beards that look like pioneers from the 1890s. Old is cool but not 70s or 80s old, more like 100 years old.
I just don't get the tattoos and piercings, I think they do that just to piss the parents off just like we grew our hair long to piss of our parents.
I like the fixie culture, it's the counter culture to the Lycra curse.

 

[John in CR]

...Old is cool but not 70s...

As long as you're not talking about music.

 

[cal3thousand]

Smaller wheels than 26" are used to accommodate children, stunt riding, or as you point out, compact folding. But small wheels come with efficiency and comfort compromises that mean they'll never be the norm. That doesn't mean they can't be the norm for you, though. Just be aware of their drawbacks.

Yea, I kind of knew that but didn't want to admit it. For me, speed is not essential (and if it is, again, incorporating the modern instead of looking back, most any bike today can be fitted with an electric motor, as my Speed P8 is) but I suppose if you really want to cover some distance fast (without an electric motor) a large and light road bike with thin tires would still be ideal.

But if you think about it, a lot of casual riders, like the hipsters, don't really ride large bikes for speed. They are just riding them because they are trendy.

A majority of people in the US choose their bikes based on trend and/or looks and have no clue why they are riding them. Heck, many of those looking for 'fixies' don't even know what 'fixed' means. They just see a skinny bike and narrow bars and mismatched tire colors and think that's cool because they saw some kid was doing fancy moves on one before.

My favorite around here is the 40 year old Mexican lady rides a BMX bike with groceries on her handlebars

 

[Modbikemax]

I notice lots of 'beach cruiser' bikes on Gum tree with ' hardly used' as the description. A good example of style over substance.

The next craze I see coming is the moon bike with the monster tyres. Another great idea while sitting in a shop.
Not so great when you are pedalling up a hill.

 

[wineboyrider]

This thread is cracking me up :lol: :lol:

 

[made_in_the_alps_legacy]

I was browsing Google searching for advice on affordable fixies

There's your problem. You you were feeling profoundly, slobberingly retarded; you threw yourself into a nest of random slobbering retards, and you got some on you. No surprise there.

+1
I got myself some years ago a "charge TAP" which is a "fake" fixy since it has a nexus hub, and the frame is made of great steel, as far as I can recall, it wasn't that expensive

The old "sunn 5000 RX" from the 90's I have, keeps being one of my favorite ride dispite all the wiknesses of that time, (so light but too long, too low, too stiff, too efficient)

great thread by the way, showes well actual customer awarness,
if they do know what they are after, instead of the other way around... :wink:

 

[arkmundi]

Robin Williams and Dario Pegoretti: The Comedian and the Bike Builder

He was also a devoted rider, and adored the machinery. Over the years, Williams accumulated a substantial bicycle collection—what Jay Leno does with cars, Williams did with bikes.
"He had everything," said Chad Nordwall, owner of Above Category, a high-end bicycle retailer based in Marin County, Calif., where Williams was a devoted client. "Everything."

Someone's gonna buy up that collection and eBay it as memorbilia. If you're looking for the very best in used.

 

[Modbikemax]

The same happened to the Steve McQueen motorcycle collection. I saw one of his Indians in Melbourne in the 80s.
I hope Williams collection goes to those who are as passionate as he was.
Did he have an e bike?

 

[arkmundi]

When I went shopping for a mountain bike in the '90's, the bike that is now my eBike, I went to my local bike shop and simply perused the used bike racks for their selection, happened on a Gary Fisher with Shimano parts and bought it. Spent something like $150 for it and considered it a bargain. Gary Fisher is the guy credited with inventing the genre. It was the late '70's and over the course of the next several decades, we saw the explosion of companies, bikes, riders, media, trails, races, courses and so forth. So much so that a mountain bike is universally recognized.

Fisher was inducted into the Mountain Bike Hall of Fame in 1988. Outside magazine named him one of the "50 who left their mark" in the sport in 2000, and Smithsonian magazine honored him in 1994 as the "Founding Father of Mountain Bikes." In 1998, Fisher was recognized by Popular Mechanics for his innovations in sports.

My latest acquisition, from eBay is a Ross Mt Whitney Hi-Tech Mountain Bicycle, made in 1985. That purchase was proceeded by some research into brands, the luxury for which was enabled by the Internet. There are a lot of great bikes to be had, used and at a bargain price. My recommendation for folks wanting an urban commuter eBike is buy like I did, a mountain bike, used, from a local bike shop, eBay or Craigs list. A bike made in the golden era of the sport - in the '80's and '90's. If its in good shape after being used for years & years, its likely to be just the thing for conversion to an eBike. And when assembling the hub wheel, remake the whole wheel with really good rims, spokes, tires & tubes.
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