Streamlined gasoline-ICE microcar/tadpole trikes

A 49cc or smaller diesel, made to run at a constant speed as a generator, approaching 50% thermal efficiency,

Small engines don't approach the thermal efficiency of larger engines, because of displacement per surface area and displacement per friction area limitations. So your hypothetical case is only that.

The smallest diesel engine I can find documentation for that has 50% thermal efficiency is a 13 liter pre-production engine from Weichai in China. So you can take their claims at face value or not.
 
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Small engines don't approach the thermal efficiency of larger engines, because of displacement per surface area and displacement per friction area limitations. So your hypothetical case is only that.

The smallest diesel engine I can find documentation for that has 50% thermal efficiency is a 13 liter pre-production engine from Weichai in China. So you can take their claims at face value or not.
Even if it is 35% efficiency, mileage could still be in the 4-figures for such a vehicle. I don't have any datasheets on the efficiency of small diesel engines, but the 50% figure was an upper limit I had read about for larger engines.
 
Small engines don't approach the thermal efficiency of larger engines, because of displacement per surface area and displacement per friction area limitations. So your hypothetical case is only that.

The smallest diesel engine I can find documentation for that has 50% thermal efficiency is a 13 liter pre-production engine from Weichai in China. So you can take their claims at face value or not.

Yep. That's why small engines are all single cylinder, as I said.

Both can be ameliorated by a Boric Acid treatment of the bearing surfaces:
The stuff doesn't just decrease friction dramatically, there's some indication/research pointing to it also acting as a thermal barrier.
With your personality you'd have a lovely time dumping on that! :D
But I must say; Research aside, I've been VERY! impressed with this stuff.

You might like 'using the crankcase of a 4-stoke as a supercharger' to keep weight down though.
 
Even if it is 35% efficiency, mileage could still be in the 4-figures for such a vehicle. I don't have any datasheets on the efficiency of small diesel engines, but the 50% figure was an upper limit I had read about for larger engines.

At a guess I would say a spark ignition engine will give you a better power to weight ratio, but there's no reason not to run it on diesel or whatever you care to pyrolyse IF it runs at a constant rpm.

Was my previous post too long? :)
 
Both can be ameliorated by a Boric Acid treatment of the bearing surfaces:
The stuff doesn't just decrease friction dramatically, there's some indication/research pointing to it also acting as a thermal barrier.

Yeah, I'm sure the other 8 billion people in the world don't do it just because they never thought of it and you're so much smarter than they are.


If you don't know who the crackpot in the room is....
 
From the above paper:

In 2002, boric acid leakage occurred on the top of the reactor cooling tower of the DAVIS-Besse nuclear power plant in the United States, leaving less than half an inch of the original 6-inch-thick stainless steel alloy cap,
 
From the above paper:

But could there be a difference between an uncontrolled leak and a controlled exposure?

The paper talks about a leak, I don't see a direct correlation to the effects of controlled exposure.


edit: btw not taking stances here, don't know how applicable it is ect ect but it's not like what he was saying is not true at all.
 
I really like Paul Elkins and his creations, too bad he's oilpilled, otherwise he'd fit in here so well!
 
But could there be a difference between an uncontrolled leak and a controlled exposure?

The paper talks about a leak, I don't see a direct correlation to the effects of controlled exposure.


edit: btw not taking stances here, don't know how applicable it is ect ect but it's not like what he was saying is not true at all.
Sure. But tribologists and engineers are constantly trying to improve additive packages for all different kinds of applications, and no kind of lubricant has had more time, research, and money thrown at upgrading it than motor oil. For some know-nothing to decide boric acid is best evah because of something he read on the int0rnetz, when it doesn't seem to be a customary additive of any commercial or industrial motor oils, says pretty much all I need to know. Boric acid is corrosive, motor oil gets alternately somewhat hot and contaminated by condensation, and if it were that easy and cheap, everyone would do it.
 
I don't agree that 'if it can be done and is worth it, it would be done by now'.

But, even while not knowing much about the topic, from what I have read current research is pure academical. So maybe it can be done.. someday... 200 years ago the fastest you could travel ws by horse drawn carriage.

I'm btw finding the hostility uncomfortable, but that is probably just me I do have a splitting headache ;)
 
I don't agree that 'if it can be done and is worth it, it would be done by now'.

I didn't agree with that either. But I assert that if boric acid were a technical solution to lubrication that didn't make worse problems in the process, it would be used that way by now. It's too plentiful, too accessible, and too cheap not to have been tried extensively and rejected.
 
Well I think the biggest issue is that it is seemingly only plausible in a vapor bearing.. if I google 'vapor bearing' the first hit I get is from a thread here... It's seemingly very hard to create conditions in which this actually works... in a lab setting.

Maybe it can be made reliable. Then they would need to be able to scale it down.

I guess this comes down to: you're probably right.
 
I appreciate your open mindedness marvin78. It's an extremely rare thing! :alien:

As we are way off topic and hijacking The Toecutter's thread, I'll just say that I have collected and studied a hell of lot of research on Boric Acid as a lubricant and tested it in engines for myself.
I will post it in the Boric Acid thread here soon and let you know.

It is in fact extremely well suited to the conditions in an engine:
There's 4ml of water/vapour/steam (in liquid form) per km through/into the sump in the average car.
That's bad for all the current additives and bearing surfaces, but BA turns it into an advantage.

BA on FeO.jpg
 
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At a guess I would say a spark ignition engine will give you a better power to weight ratio, but there's no reason not to run it on diesel or whatever you care to pyrolyse IF it runs at a constant rpm.

Was my previous post too long? :)
For my application, power to weight ratio is important. I wouldn't need more than about 5 horsepower continuous though, and the smaller of a package that can fit in, the better.

Your previous post wasn't too long. I read it and found it interesting, learning new things in the process(as well as from others' responses in this thread). I just don't have as much time to post these days.
 
For my application, power to weight ratio is important. I wouldn't need more than about 5 horsepower continuous though, and the smaller of a package that can fit in, the better.

Your previous post wasn't too long. I read it and found it interesting, learning new things in the process(as well as from others' responses in this thread). I just don't have as much time to post these days.
5hp seems pretty high for the average power a genset needs to cover?
Are we talking motorbike wheels and bits to survive potholes etc and/or highway cruising where regen doesn't happen?

Do you have any preferences as far a 2 vs 4 strokes go?
ie: Pollution and visible smoke giving things away?
 
I went looking for drone generator as that fits the bill for power to weight ratio, if not quietness.
This is just a list. No idea how good they are.

Rotaries are compact and the high pitch of the noise is easier/lighter to damp.
They should be more reliable at constant, optimal rpm, but...?
(water cooled)

A 40cc 5hp water cooled rotary

RC forum. Small engine conversions

A local discussion
 
I never realized those small rotaries are considered lower maintenance then a normal Otto Cycle, this is actually a bit of a shock to me. I always assumed those apex seals would wear much faster then a piston ring would, even under constant rpm. Guess I was very wrong ( ofc rotary = fewer moving parts.... but but those apex seals... ).
 
I never realized those small rotaries are considered lower maintenance then a normal Otto Cycle, this is actually a bit of a shock to me. I always assumed those apex seals would wear much faster then a piston ring would, even under constant rpm. Guess I was very wrong ( ofc rotary = fewer moving parts.... but but those apex seals... ).
But like gas turbines, they offset whatever benefits they offer with increased fuel consumption. It doesn't take long for a bigger necessary fuel load to eat up a superior power-to-weight ratio.
 
5hp seems pretty high for the average power a genset needs to cover?
Are we talking motorbike wheels and bits to survive potholes etc and/or highway cruising where regen doesn't happen?

Both. I'm building a custom trike out to be an apocalypse vehicle. The next body shell is designed to accommodate solar charging, I'll be able to comfortably sleep in the vehicle, and I'd like to have an ICE converted to run on ethanol or methanol or a diesel. I plan to use the traction battery as an energy source for heat as well as for cooking, and I'll require any onboard ICE to handle those demands without depleting the battery. The pedal drivetrain is also there as a meagre range extender and a last-ditch effort to remain mobile if all else fails, although with all this crap onboard, the unladen ready-to-ride full vehicle will be approaching 150 lbs.

The 5 horsepower or more is wanted in the case I want to cruise at 90 mph on flat ground, or need to briefly go faster so I can get away from the cops(this amount of power which will greatly extend my usable range and reduce my immediate need to charge). I've already used the coroplast velo in a street takeover with some Dodge Chargers. That was fun. Then with that much power, I can run the engine intermittently for what would be more typical usage cases, like riding all day long hundreds of miles into the boonies and not being able to find an outlet to charge, and only needing to deal with the engine noise/vibration for part of the time.

Do you have any preferences as far a 2 vs 4 strokes go?
ie: Pollution and visible smoke giving things away?
I prefer 4-strokes. More efficiency potential and no need to mix oil into the fuel. I have zero concern regarding missions, as the gasoline engine will not be used often, even though the 4 stroke is an improvement in this regard vs the 2 stroke.
 
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Honda GX-31 4-stroke mated to a generator. That's a bike rack under it.

This never got actually built, but I think it would work.

1737875744868.png
 
I never realized those small rotaries are considered lower maintenance then a normal Otto Cycle, this is actually a bit of a shock to me. I always assumed those apex seals would wear much faster then a piston ring would, even under constant rpm. Guess I was very wrong ( ofc rotary = fewer moving parts.... but but those apex seals... ).

No-no:
I meant a rotary at constant rpm should be more reliable than a rotary at varying rpm..?

The smaller the 'diameter' of the rotor, the lower the circumferential speed of those seals for the same rpm.

Problem is... just listen to this thing! (not too loud on the volume)
It's tempting to add gears just for the sound! :cool:
It'd need a bit of exhaust and muffler tuning and a bag full of spare seals, but hell! :D It'd be the ultimate ..er... proximity warning device in an EV! (That also provides heat and a few amps)

But I digress.
The smaller the engine cc's; the higher the combustion chamber surface area to volume ratio gets.
That means more heat is lost rather than turning into power.
That's why all small engines are single cylinder, which means pumping losses in the crankcase.
Also more friction.
There's no oil pump. (longevity and friction again)
The whole reciprocation mass thing and vibration.

So I'm thinking, with the combustion in the same area all the time in rotaries, there may be less heat loss due to a smaller delta T.
Then it ameliorates or negates all the above.
They have a great power to weight ratio.
So maybe it's the better option at the small power levels required here..? (..? is generally a note to self to research things)

I also think that Boric Acid added to the Lubricant is very likely to make the seals last way-way longer, but that's a very controversial subject we don't want to get into here! :)


Then There's LiquidPiston with distributed combustion spaces and stationary, lubricatable 'apex' seals:
There are a videos on YouTube worth a look.
Now if they'd just start making weed whackers and stuff already!
With the Send-Cut-Send type metal 3D printing places around, perhaps they can be left to continue procrastinating and hoping Honda and co. will license there tech.
 
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But like gas turbines, they offset whatever benefits they offer with increased fuel consumption. It doesn't take long for a bigger necessary fuel load to eat up a superior power-to-weight ratio.
Hmmm... do they at the small sizes and high power to weight ratio we are talking about here?
(see my previous post)

No single cylinder, crankcase pumping losses.
No reciprocating mass and total friction is likely lower at small diameters.
Less vibration and heavy noise damping required.
Possibly less heat loss..?

It looks possible to design in a threaded apex seal access/replacement hole and just keep seals on hand.
 
Geh whenever my brain sees 'rotary' this is what it sees
.. so imagine my double surprise that 'rotaries might be easier to sound dampen' .. guess those generators run a lot more reasonable rpm 😂
 
Geh whenever my brain sees 'rotary' this is what it sees
.. so imagine my double surprise that 'rotaries might be easier to sound dampen' .. guess those generators run a lot more reasonable rpm 😂

:D
Ye! they sound great! (unmuffled) Till the novelty wears off...

I forget the physics but high frequencies can be damped with a thin layer of say rock wool in a muffler or enclosure, where low frequencies need a MUCH thicker layer of rock wool.
So a smaller volume and thus a less weighty enclosure is reqd to quieten high frequencies.

Do look up Quarter Wave Resonators and Helmholtz Resonators for fixed rpm/frequencies type noise cancellation.
Only effective in a narrow frequency range, so the loudest frequency from a noise source is normally targeted and eliminated.
A QWR is light, simple and cheap.

Also high frequency noise attenuates with distance more than low.

If you recall a time you put a pillow over your ear/s it proves both points. That Boom-Boom-Boom still gets through.
 
Both. I'm building a custom trike out to be an apocalypse vehicle. The next body shell is designed to accommodate solar charging, I'll be able to comfortably sleep in the vehicle, and I'd like to have an ICE converted to run on ethanol or methanol or a diesel. I plan to use the traction battery as an energy source for heat as well as for cooking, and I'll require any onboard ICE to handle those demands without depleting the battery. The pedal drivetrain is also there as a meagre range extender and a last-ditch effort to remain mobile if all else fails, although with all this crap onboard, the unladen ready-to-ride full vehicle will be approaching 150 lbs.

As soon as you you can use the normally wasted heat from an engine the efficiency goes WAY up!
We're talking 90% plus if you use both the exhaust and cooling waste heat.
It changes the ICE picture completely..!

The heat from engine cooling is easy. Maybe even more so with an air cooled engine.
And yes; cooking on engine exhausts is a thing! :) Mostly for a novel talking point, but possible.

I think an important option or feature that hasn't been considered here is that a small genset can be a 'quick release' plug in/out device that can be left at home for shorter 'to work and back' type trips and quickly 'plugged' in for longer trips..!
When you're camped you might unplug it and put it further away = quieter with an extension cord back to you/the velo.
For heat from an air cooled engine flexible vent ducting is light and 'folds up' to a surprisingly small size.
d56dbc28-2775-4e4e-981b-9ef5590eebb5_1.4335795b0952a9098bd1d48c14aa45c1.jpeg


A quick connect tail pipe is a bit of a challenge. You get metal quick connects for air though.

Do give these ideas a think. :)

I prefer 4-strokes. More efficiency potential and no need to mix oil into the fuel. I have zero concern regarding missions, as the gasoline engine will not be used often, even though the 4 stroke is an improvement in this regard vs the 2 stroke.

Hmmm... Not necessarily:

(An old post of mine)
If a 2-stroke is run at a constant rpm we can get most of the charge that is otherwise lost out the exhaust to return to the combustion chamber, with an Expansion Chamber or Tune-Pipe.
See the animation.​
But not all as there will be some dilution in the tune pipe.​
If a tiny reed valve is added to the TRANSFER port;​
then the first bit of lost to exhaust charge is not charge but air.​
The first bit to be lost is the last bit to be returned by the tune pipe.​
So any dilution in the tune pipe is more with plain air than charge.​
Meaning more to all charge is returned to the cylinder, by the tune-pipe before the exhaust port closes.​
[MEDIA]
ie: in the video that 1st bit of green to escape, which is the last bit of green to be returned is plain air and any dilution is no longer a problem.
There's also a ~30% power increase and a ~12% economy increase.
That makes them worth the space and weight..?​
The other place where there is a problem is with the power stroke only being around half a downward stroke, vs a 4-stroke's full stroke, before the exhaust port opens.​
This means that there is way less time for a complete and clean burn of all the charge.​
If you were to add hydrogen; the burn is speeded up dramatically, making that initial exhaust escaping down the pipe cleaner.​
Here some sort of onboard hydrogen or HHO/Hydroxy cell could be used.​
NOT for economy unless its running of a home charged battery, but if you want to improve emissions...
( MIT etc's 'forgotten' plasmatrons are in fact efficient at onboard hydrogen production!)​
That leaves the lubricating oil and soot as an issue.​
They are MUCH heavier than the gasses in the exhaust.​
So a centrifuge after the tune-pipe would be efficient at separating these particulates in the exhaust from the gasses, whence they could be returned to the intake.​
( I suspect a centrifuge may also be a very effective muffler. Especially with some thought in that direction put into it's design)​

But ye; I doubt there's that much space to play in?

Rotary?
If the seals last?
 
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