Sur-Ron - New Mid drive Bike

[fechter]

Can anyone comment on how well the rims are built and if the wheel build is true.

Do any of the spokes loosen up?

Do you find the 12 gauge spokes more than strong enough for the bike?


Thanks

I haven't been bashing them off road, but the pavement here is not easy on wheels either. I had a couple spokes need a little tightening after about 100 miles, but that's to be expected with any new wheel. I didn't put a dial gauge on it, but just visually the wheels look true when you spin them. The spokes and rims are motorcycle type and much heavier than bicycle type. I don't think I'll ever have any problems with them.

 

[Offroader]

Interesting, thanks.

This is what i'm thinking. I've been through many wheel builds on my hub motored bike. The front wheel has thin 14/15 gauge spokes and I never had an issue, broken spoke, or a loose spoke. The rear wheel is a whole other problem.

I am assuming this is because of the hub motor in the wheel, but the rear wheel was nothing but problems until I laced them with 9/10 guage spokes and torqued them down tight with a spoke torque wrench to about 28 inch pounds if I remember correctly.

Torquing them tightly to 28 inch pounds I never had a loose spoke. I'm kind of leaning on that the wheels are not torqued properly because they really shouldn't loosen if built properly. Yes the wheel may go out of alignment but the spokes should really never get loose.

Maybe dealing with 12 gauge spokes is different than the 9/10, but I doubt it. I'm going to have to keep my eye on this and possibly rebuild the whole wheel if the spokes are constantly getting loose. I just personally hate having to constantly check for loose spokes, I remember I had to do that every single ride and sometimes half way during my rides I had to tighten my spokes until I torqued them down to proper spec. and used the 9/10 gauge spokes.

The issue is with 12 guage spokes you can't torque them down to 28 inch pounds because they will break or you really can't put too much tension on them. I remember torquing the 12 gauge once too tightly and about 8 spokes broke and shot out all over the garage with speed while I was building the wheel, it would be dangerous.

I'm thinking if I can't get the wheel to stay true and no loose spokes I'm just going to rebuild the rear wheel with 10 gauge spokes and call it a day. I'll see first if I can get it to work properly with the 12 gauge first of course. Its just that I read a few times here people mentioning that their spokes are coming loose.

 

[Allex]

How to fix the wheels:
[youtube]GGMfZldg1LU[/youtube]

And:
This technique gets rid of the "1000 mile" service on a typical spoked wheel. I have wheelsets with almost two decades of mountain and street freeriding on them that have never gone out of true and never been serviced!
[youtube]ZADSjz0REt4[/youtube]

 

[3DTOPO]

This technique gets rid of the "1000 mile" service on a typical spoked wheel.

Interesting. I saw the first video you posted, but not the pre-stressing video - wish I had!

Now that my wheel has 1000 miles on it, I suppose there is no point in pre-stressing it now?

I now have some loose spokes now, should I just tighten them up?

 

[fechter]

Interesting. I saw the first video you posted, but not the pre-stressing video - wish I had!
Now that my wheel has 1000 miles on it, I suppose there is no point in pre-stressing it now?
I now have some loose spokes now, should I just tighten them up?

I think so. Just tighten them up. The 1000 miles of riding should have seated the ends of the spokes nicely by now. Once you tighten them, it should be good for a really long time.

 

[Offroader]

What I found from many botched wheel builds is that unless all the spokes are uniformly tightened at the same time that the wheel build won't be right. You will continue to have spokes coming loose. The wheel will also be out of true. You will tighten up a few spokes now, but then in a week you will have a few more coming loose and this will just continue forcing you to always check the wheel.

The whole wheel should be pulled and put on a true stand or at least rebuilt while on the bike. All the spokes should be completly loosened and then rebuilt again properly while also pretensioning the spokes. Pretensioning the spokes is part of the wheel building process that Sur-Ron should have done. I do this multiple times during my wheel builds with a very big wrench to put a lot of force on the spokes. It is surprising how much the wheel goes out of true when you pretension the spokes, so its very surprising Sur-Ron didn't do this step. Labor is so cheap in china that it would have cost an extra $.50 cents in added labor to build the wheels properly and Sur-Ron seems to keep the quality well with most things. Maybe they just need to be notified that many of the wheels are not built properly and have spokes coming loose as they probably don't even know there is an issue.

The front wheels should optimally be built with 14/15 guage spokes and not 12 gauge. Surprisingly the 14/15 guage spokes work so well on the front. 12 gauge is really overkill for the front wheel but that is what they use. If you were to build another wheel best off using 14/15 gauge spokes.

One of the reasons I take the wheel builds seriously is that in my very urban city I do a lot of stair riding , especially when riding up the stairs is very hard on the wheels. If there are any loose spokes it will be very easy to start breaking spokes. I've even had spokes pull right out of the nipples, damaging the threads, when climbing up stairs using 12 gauge spokes. This is because the torque from the motor pulling on the spokes just rips it right out of the nipple.

Probably I'm just going to wait until I break a few of the 12 gauge on the rear wheel and then just rebuild the whole wheel with high quality 10 gauge that I know will never break.

 

[pipeking]

What I found from many botched wheel builds is that unless all the spokes are uniformly tightened at the same time that the wheel build won't be right. You will continue to have spokes coming loose. The wheel will also be out of true. You will tighten up a few spokes now, but then in a week you will have a few more coming loose and this will just continue forcing you to always check the wheel.

The whole wheel should be pulled and put on a true stand or at least rebuilt while on the bike. All the spokes should be completly loosened and then rebuilt again properly while also pretensioning the spokes. Pretensioning the spokes is part of the wheel building process that Sur-Ron should have done. I do this multiple times during my wheel builds with a very big wrench to put a lot of force on the spokes. It is surprising how much the wheel goes out of true when you pretension the spokes, so its very surprising Sur-Ron didn't do this step. Labor is so cheap in china that it would have cost an extra $.50 cents in added labor to build the wheels properly and Sur-Ron seems to keep the quality well with most things. Maybe they just need to be notified that many of the wheels are not built properly and have spokes coming loose as they probably don't even know there is an issue.

The front wheels should optimally be built with 14/15 guage spokes and not 12 gauge. Surprisingly the 14/15 guage spokes work so well on the front. 12 gauge is really overkill for the front wheel but that is what they use. If you were to build another wheel best off using 14/15 gauge spokes.

One of the reasons I take the wheel builds seriously is that in my very urban city I do a lot of stair riding , especially when riding up the stairs is very hard on the wheels. If there are any loose spokes it will be very easy to start breaking spokes. I've even had spokes pull right out of the nipples, damaging the threads, when climbing up stairs using 12 gauge spokes. This is because the torque from the motor pulling on the spokes just rips it right out of the nipple.

Probably I'm just going to wait until I break a few of the 12 gauge on the rear wheel and then just rebuild the whole wheel with high quality 10 gauge that I know will never break.

man I'm keen to see footage of your riding you sound like a beast, I have never broken a wheel and I've hucked 30+ ft :lol:

 

[k3rm1t]

This thread is awesome and invaluable! Thanks everyone!

I've had my X for a few days now and am loving it and loving all this stoke here. It seems the official forum Luna uses is pretty dead and the FB group is run by them so it's only going to mention things they want.

It's cool to see a few of you are also in Idaho! We'll need to plan a meetup one day.

 

[Rix]

This thread is awesome and invaluable! Thanks everyone!

I've had my X for a few days now and am loving it and loving all this stoke here. It seems the official forum Luna uses is pretty dead and the FB group is run by them so it's only going to mention things they want.

It's cool to see a few of you are also in Idaho! We'll need to plan a meetup one day.

Post a pic!

 

[stoney]

How to fix the wheels:
[youtube]GGMfZldg1LU[/youtube]

And:
This technique gets rid of the "1000 mile" service on a typical spoked wheel. I have wheelsets with almost two decades of mountain and street freeriding on them that have never gone out of true and never been serviced!
[youtube]ZADSjz0REt4[/youtube]

Thanks for posting this

 

[aspencreek]

This thread is awesome and invaluable! Thanks everyone!

I've had my X for a few days now and am loving it and loving all this stoke here. It seems the official forum Luna uses is pretty dead and the FB group is run by them so it's only going to mention things they want.

It's cool to see a few of you are also in Idaho! We'll need to plan a meetup one day.

Where in Idaho are you?

 

[madin88]

I got a few photos of the motor and controller internals (the motor pic is from the russian member VasiliSK):

The size of the rotor is approx 100 x 32mm
12N10P design

Controller is 36FET

 

[fechter]

Great pictures! Thanks for posting.

I'd love to see a picture of the hall sensors.

 

[Tommm]

Both of them look overbuilt, like they originally planned for 10kw with 30Q cells then settled with PF because of price.

 

[madin88]

Both of them look overbuilt, like they originally planned for 10kw with 30Q cells then settled with PF because of price.

Probably the range was also one reason then because at 10kW the battery would be empty in no time.

Regarding the motor i am surprised that it is no axial flux since the very first did look exactly like a golden motor HPM3000 which is an axial flux (pics in first or second page of this thread). With 100x32mm rotor and 12n10p "it is what it is".
36F seem to be overkill for this power, but it also depends on the sort of FET's. Manufacturers often decide to go with a higher number of less good FET's to achieve the target.

 

[district9prawn]

I got a few photos of the motor and controller internals (the motor pic is from the russian member VasiliSK):

The size of the rotor is approx 100 x 32mm
12N10P design

The stator and rotor look like a larger version of the chinese trike motors.

 

[macribs]

Is there a pic of the flipside of the pcb with thos 6x6 Fet's?

 

[fechter]

Is there a pic of the flipside of the pcb with thos 6x6 Fet's?

I'd like to see that too. I wonder what the FETs are? Can't make out any numbers in the pictures.

 

[Offroader]

Both of them look overbuilt, like they originally planned for 10kw with 30Q cells then settled with PF because of price.

Probably the range was also one reason then because at 10kW the battery would be empty in no time.

Regarding the motor i am surprised that it is no axial flux since the very first did look exactly like a golden motor HPM3000 which is an axial flux (pics in first or second page of this thread). With 100x32mm rotor and 12n10p "it is what it is".
36F seem to be overkill for this power, but it also depends on the sort of FET's. Manufacturers often decide to go with a higher number of less good FET's to achieve the target.

Just wondering, if a single fet got burned out or stopped working, would the controller still function normally? I'm just curious if maybe they did this because of redundancy and a few fets could go bad and the controller still work.

From what you can see, do you think there is a way to increase the amps on these controllers, so if you build a new pack you could get more power from them? Increasing voltage may not be worth it but maybe its possible to increase the amps, similar to how I think they did the shunt mod on other controllers?

I'm thinking it may just be easy to upgrade the pack to a 16s15p pack if possible using SANYO 18650GA cells. This would make it simple so you could keep the same BMS and not worry about the voltage. It would also allow for more amp output so was wondering if it would be possible to get the controller to use more amps.

 

[fechter]

Just wondering, if a single fet got burned out or stopped working, would the controller still function normally? I'm just curious if maybe they did this because of redundancy and a few fets could go bad and the controller still work.

From what you can see, do you think there is a way to increase the amps on these controllers, so if you build a new pack you could get more power from them? Increasing voltage may not be worth it but maybe its possible to increase the amps, similar to how I think they did the shunt mod on other controllers?

I'm thinking it may just be easy to upgrade the pack to a 16s15p pack if possible using SANYO 18650GA cells. This would make it simple so you could keep the same BMS and not worry about the voltage. It would also allow for more amp output so was wondering if it would be possible to get the controller to use more amps.

If a single FET fails, it will most likely short which will make the controller not work. They use multiple parts in parallel to increase the power rating.

For sure it is possible to increase the amps by messing with the shunt just like any other controller. Not sure if the BMS can handle a higher current though. You could replace the BMS but you'd likely lose the battery meter function if you did that.

I'm working on a secondary battery that will be mounted pannier style on the rear. This will not only increase the range but will allow higher current if both packs are in parallel.

 

[n2mb]

How about putting a small 16s lipo pack in parallel with the main pack? You'd get ludicrous peak amps and a small increase in range. You might want to add another bms to balance the lipos, but it should otherwise be protected from overdischarge by being in parallel with the stock pack, as long as you watch the display...

 

[fechter]

That could work too as long as you didn't run peak amps for too long at a time.

 

[Offroader]

With my first ebike I tried to place batteries in the rear and in different places. What I discovered is that placing batteries not centered in the bike, and especially if they are in the rear of the bike, it really kills the handling of the bike. If you are using the bike like a dirt bike for hard trail riding, you really can't have batteries placed elsewhere but at the center of the frame and protected.

This is why for me I need to just rebuild the pack which isn't all that difficult because I've done it before and have the equipment and experience. A simple rebuild should bring the capacity from like 1700 watts to 2,800 watts, or over 60% increase in capacity for a simple rebuild of the pack using the SANYO 3450 cells.

I'll have to see how powerful the bike is with the X-Controller first to see if the bike really needs a power upgrade on top of a capacity upgrade.

I'm not saying placing external batteries is a bad choice for all, if you are not using the bike for tricks and hard trail riding, and using it for mostly the street then placing batteries externally may work for you.

 

[Offroader]

How about putting a small 16s lipo pack in parallel with the main pack? You'd get ludicrous peak amps and a small increase in range. You might want to add another bms to balance the lipos, but it should otherwise be protected from overdischarge by being in parallel with the stock pack, as long as you watch the display...

The thing we need to figure out is getting the controller to actually use the extra amps. We would also need to find out the BMS cutoff for amps/current. Maybe the BMS cutoff for amps is already set pretty high and there wouldn't be a need to change this.

This is because the bike now may only use 80 amps peak, but the BMS may easily be rated for 200 amps. This is usually the case with most BMS to really have a high current shut off.

Do you think it is possible to do a shunt mod or something on the BMS to change the current limit? I'm not even sure how the BMS detects amps and knows when they are too high?

 

[Offroader]

Can't wait to get the Sur-Ron.

Here are some things I can't wait to check out on the Sur-Ron and also compare to my current bike. I will be comparing the Sur-Ron to one of the best built, (in my opinion), hub motor bike out there, using what I consider the best frame on the market, and all the best components.

My Qulbix Q76R has top notch components, max-e, high end - suspension, motorcycle seat, the narrowest frame on the market, foot-pegs, MXUS turbo 3K, 3.2KWH battery pack. This bike amazes me every time I take it out on how smooth and powerful it is, balanced, easy to maneuver and handle because of its thin frame. I only use 8KW power but the Max-E is set with PWR settings to give ridiculous fast acceleration.

1) First Inspect the wheels to see how true and how tensioned the spokes are before riding. checking trueness first with a dial indicator and park tools tension meter before using the bike, Then I will pre-tension on all the spokes and see how much out of true and how much the tension changes on each spoke.

2) How much of a difference the rear suspension works compared to my hub motored bike. Going over objects fast with my hub motor bike would violently through up the rear, the front would smoothly go over anything. Curious to see just how much of a difference the suspension is without that 25lbs hub motor sitting at the center.

I never rode a mid-drive bike so I really don't know if the rear suspension is just never as smooth as the front, or if its because of the 25lbs hub motor.

3) How powerful the Sur-Ron is compared to my hub motored bike. My 8KW hub motored bike has plenty of power and will climb anything no matter how steep, will accelerate quickly to 55MPH. Will be interesting to compare this to the Sur-Ron. If the Sur-Ron can beat it out at speeds below 20MPH, I will honestly be surprised. Allex says the Sur-Ron is like riding a 14KW bike at lower speeds so I'll be able to see if that is true or not.

I believe anything over 20MPH my hub motor bike will be much faster, this is because of the Max-E and pushing 8KW.

4) How the wider Sur-Ron frame compares to my 76mm wide Q-76R frame. I just love thin frames, makes a huge difference in the feel of the bike and also makes the bike feel more balanced.

5) Top speed, I'm hoping the Sur-Ron can at least get up to 50MPH using the X controller. My bike can get up to 55MPH easily and that is really as fast as I would ever want to go. If the Sur-Ron can't get to even 50MPH, that won't be great for passing cars.

6) Overheating, I usually like riding in the hottest summer days, over 90 degrees, and I ride always full throttle. My hub motor bike is always overheating, but my custom cooling keeps it in check. Will be interesting to see if the Sur-Ron really doesn't overheat on hot summer days when pushing the bike hard, with constant hill climbing or stair climbing.

Even with my custom cooling, if I climb up a steep hill my motor temps will spike to over 120C. Will the Sur-Ron really not spike like this climbing steep hills or stairs. Will be amazing if it doesn't to be honest. Somehow I think I will still be able to overheat it.

7) Seat height, my Qulbix equipped with a motorcycle seat is fairly low, but the Sur-Ron comes in even lower. I like low seats but felt the Q76R height was optimal. Will be interesting to see what an even lower seat height feels like.

8) Front tire size and weight. I use a 26" Duro-Razorback 3" tire and a bicycle rim. While both fairly heavy for bicycle components, still far less lighter than what the Sur-Ron will use for the front wheel. The Sur-Ron will use a heavier motorcycle rim, tire, and tire tube.

It will be interesting to see if this extra weight is noticeable and how it affects the front suspension and feel of the bike.

A 26" bicycle tire is larger than the Sur-Rons 19-2.75" tire. The biking community all love larger tires, saying 27.5" tires are worlds better than 26", and 29" is even better. Will the small 19" Sur-Ron tire be a disappointment?

9) Throttle control. I actually prefer the thumb throttle. I find it gives me much more precise control over the bike and much easier to always have the brake covered while pushing down on the throttle. I also find that when things get really rough, I can clamp down on the handlebars and hold everything tight without having the throttle twist on me.

I do lots of slow riding technical stuff and the thumb throttle gives me very precise control. I know most people hate the thumb, but that is most likely because they always just used a twist throttle and never gave enough time with the thumb.

When I was in Asia and using scooters and stuck using twist, I quickly noticed just how much better the thumb throttle is for precision control and other reasons. I just much preferred the thumb and felt like I lost a lot of control with the twist. While it won't matter much using twist or thumb if you are just cruising down the street. Once you get off-road, doing slow technical stuff, that is where you really need precise control of the bike and where the thumb throttle gives much better precise control of the bike.

I'm going to try and use the twist throttle to give it a chance at first, however, if I notice that I will never get precision control with it, I'm going to switch it over to a thumb throttle.

10) Rear suspension and spring weight. Surprisingly, I believe and could be wrong, nobody here has swapped out their rear spring. This makes me believe many people are using the incorrect spring weight on the rear.

I know from my hub motor bike that going from 450 lbs, to 400lbs, to 350, then to 300lbs, which I use now in spring weight made a huge difference.

When using the 400lbs spring I wasn't even able to use 1/3rd of my rear travel, it was just too firm.

The Fastace shock that the bike comes with can most likely use a FOX 9.5" 3.00" springs (it should fit), so you can easily swap it out for the proper spring weight. Once I get the Sur-Ron I actually have a 9.5" fox spring so I'll know if they can be used with the fast ace shock, I just need to measure it. Many people in the bicycle community use different springs than the shock manufacturer, it doesn't matter as long as the specs are correct.

Here is my current bike I'll be comparing it to, honestly one of the best built hub motor bikes (in my opinion because I know people get offended by me saying this, yes I know your stealth bike is better ) out there using all of the best components. Everything on the Sur-Ron will be compared against this, especially the suspension.