Surly Big Fat Dummy with L-R Big Block Mid Drive

<edit: I just noticed that somehow only the last sentence in the original reply posted...I fumble-fingered something, I'm sure :roll: )

PRW said:
such a neat integrated build - well done, Mike, and congratulations, Erik!

Hi PRW, thanks! this thing is scary cool!

The Rohloffs have been great! My first one on an Xtracycle 10e (14,210 miles):
IMG_0118.JPG


my second one is on a Felt Bruhaul (2956 miles):
IMG_20180615_111033.jpg


LMK if you want more details on the Rohloff...

LightningRods said:
I'm pretty sure that Erik stepped it up to the aluminum shear pins.

</edit>

I did go with the aluminum shear pins, and the hub flange supports.
 
That broken rubber mount is not making that sound.

I wasn't suggesting the mounts themselves were causing the sound. (Hadn't even occurred to me...)

I was going with your instructions to look around for some unintended shift or movement...

Other possibilities for unconstrained movement are these types of dual-sided threaded stacks:
DSC07315.jpg


DSC07317.jpg


DSC07322.jpg


No clinch means no preload torque (for retention, load-spreading, etc.)

Plus, the unsupported sections can fail under shear.
 
I got the BeamTS hooked up, and providing a stable signal! (when applying controlled forces on the bench)

range is from 0.92V:
DSC07407.jpg


to 3.84V:
DSC07409.jpg


REV 1 mount:
DSC07306.jpg


Current mounting scheme does not provide a stable, repeatable signal.

Torque inputs are not translated efficiently to the sensor via the chain, due to mounting play:
[youtube]7pvg4Xharc0[/youtube]

PAS + Torque Sensing was always the goal for this build, so I'm going to work integrating the BeamTS.

Will update this thread as the REV 2 design progresses...
 
Next up is the PAS sensor mounting and configuration.

REV 1 PAS sensor configuration uses a cast hub with four mounting tabs:
DSC07313.jpg


The cast hub is then meant to sandwich between the left crank arm and the BB face.
[youtube]gcb5JPNDtlI[/youtube]

The central flange thickness is ~3mm:
DSC07314.jpg


For reference, the BB is:
2018-08-28_12-10-59.png


During initial assembly, I noted that the 4 spacers (+spring washer) were still in place on the spider side:
DSC07284.jpg


Unfortunately, removing 3mm of spacers from the spider side was not an option due to various clearance issues. With this design adding 3mm to the BB stack (without subsequently removing ~3mm) I was further concerned about the reduced spline engagement on the left crank arm.

Not certain of the material used for this casting. Assuming this part was produced using open pour, judging from the high level of included air (bubbles). Given the general brittle nature of these casting materials (note the fracture in the photo above), further weakened by bubbles - the failure mode in this configuration could be severe. If the hub fractured, the crank could loosen quickly, suddenly having ~3mm of lateral play. Not good under the potential power levels of this system.

I torqued the left crank arm fixing bolt:
[youtube]oQghdv6AD9A[/youtube]

Here is the completed assembly:
[youtube]arD2YEb0GS8[/youtube]

This configuration did not provide a stable PAS signal, primarily due to excessive runout.

Curious about the central flange condition after torque, I disassembled to inspect:
DSC07352.jpg


After this one-time torque application and dis-assembly, the central hub flange thickness measured ~2.2mm. Compressed/displaced significantly from the 3.0mm nominal.

Note the displaced material towards the end of the video:
[youtube]KqsjWH5jE5M[/youtube]

For reference, here's the mating face of the left crank arm:
DSC07353.jpg


Will update as the REV 2 design progresses...



DSC07430.jpg


DSC07431.jpg


DSC07432.jpg


DSC07433.jpg


DSC07434.jpg


DSC07435.jpg


DSC07436.jpg


DSC07440.jpg


DSC07442.jpg
 
LightningRods said:
mechanistic said:
yeah, I haven't ridden it yet - but the throttle feels really silky smooth.

Did you watch the video with the sound on? Is that noise normal? It's really loud.

No that's not normal. It sounds like one of the chains is rubbing on a metal part. Look around while you're running the drive and see if you can find the source. Something may have unthreaded or moved. A lot of no load running often does that, especially when the freewheels and sprockets haven't been bedded in by running under load.

This statement worries me. I do agree that excessive no load operation could have a detrimental effect.

But we are not talking about excessive amounts of no load operation in this case. Not by any means.

Does the CA have an hour meter, or whatever? I bet I have less than ten minutes on the drive as of today.

Regarding unthreading, and/or moving: yes, I agree. Mounts and clinched joints, for example.

Given that I haven't ridden it yet, movement would be shipping-related.

Unthreading is possible, were these meant to be clinched?
DSC07317.jpg


DSC07320.jpg
 
I got the Aux Pot hooked up and it provides rock steady output and progression. Really nice pot!

I went with POT-A-LK-28 from Reinhard at e-bike-technolgies.de

POT-LK_11.jpg


Good, steady output with a really nice tactile feel.

C0002T01.jpg


Currently configured for PAS.

Still need to fine tune CA settings, etc. but that is contingent on test ride.

Will update this post with settings updates, etc.
 
Got the DAux Slim switch hooked up.

I added a connector to the "Misc Button Press" wires. I don't have an immediate need for a momentary button, but wanted the option for plug & play later.

The package says "2 wires under shrink tube"

DSC07391.jpg


With my sample, the BLU & BRN wires were unused

DSC07393.jpg


I terminated them JST-SM

DSC07395.jpg


Currently configured for PAS

C0003T01.jpg


CA settings, etc. contingent on test drive.
 
Hi Mike,

Checking in to see if you have any input?

The noise persists:
[youtube]t_95z2DJUAk[/youtube]

I would really like to get this resolved so the drive is safe enough to road test.
 
mechanistic said:
<edit: I just noticed that somehow only the last sentence in the original reply posted...I fumble-fingered something, I'm sure :roll: )

PRW said:
such a neat integrated build - well done, Mike, and congratulations, Erik!

Hi PRW, thanks! this thing is scary cool!

The Rohloffs have been great! My first one on an Xtracycle 10e (14,210 miles):
IMG_0118.JPG


my second one is on a Felt Bruhaul (2956 miles):
IMG_20180615_111033.jpg


LMK if you want more details on the Rohloff...

LightningRods said:
I'm pretty sure that Erik stepped it up to the aluminum shear pins.

</edit>

I did go with the aluminum shear pins, and the hub flange supports.

thanks - i have a Rohloff already laced and ready to go, I just have to decide what to do with it! Likely to go either into a Rans Stratus XP, or a Norco Atomik View attachment 1
 
wow, those are two really different bikes! I'm curious what the deciding factor is between the two?

I'm sure you already know, but JIC: Neil @ https://www.cyclemonkey.com/ is an amazing resource.

I've found this online tool really helpful - http://www.gear-calculator.com/. It has a Rohloff preset, and the compare function has been super helpful for cross-referencing pedal gearing to ebike use.

I grew up in Canada, so I've always had a soft spot for Norco - that's my vote!

Best,

Erik
 
mechanistic said:
wow, those are two really different bikes! I'm curious what the deciding factor is between the two?

I'm sure you already know, but JIC: Neil @ https://www.cyclemonkey.com/ is an amazing resource.

I've found this online tool really helpful - http://www.gear-calculator.com/. It has a Rohloff preset, and the compare function has been super helpful for cross-referencing pedal gearing to ebike use.

I grew up in Canada, so I've always had a soft spot for Norco - that's my vote!

Best,

Erik
thanks Erik, very useful info and tool! The deciding factor may be the fact that I already have a great off road bike (A Beta with a L-R kit on it), so I don't really need another one... and limited space to keep all the bikes. I really like the Norco as well, though! Choices, choices...
 
another thing that occurred to me about the Rohloffs: I've broken two of the 13T cogs.

new on top, worn (crack @ ~10:00):
MVIMG_20180203_080044.jpg


one on top of the other to show wear (crack @ ~1:00):
MVIMG_20180203_080109.jpg


I try to use at least a 16T on the Rohloff, and gear the rest of the system accordingly.

The splined cogs are reversible, which does help with service life.

Looking forward to seeing that Rans come together! Are you going with the Rohloff shifter?

Happy Friday!
 
mechanistic said:
another thing that occurred to me about the Rohloffs: I've broken two of the 13T cogs.

new on top, worn (crack @ ~10:00):
MVIMG_20180203_080044.jpg


one on top of the other to show wear (crack @ ~1:00):
MVIMG_20180203_080109.jpg


I try to use at least a 16T on the Rohloff, and gear the rest of the system accordingly.

The splined cogs are reversible, which does help with service life.

Looking forward to seeing that Rans come together! Are you going with the Rohloff shifter?

Happy Friday!
thanks, good info. It may be a while before I build - there is a chance that I may move from here in the near future, so am looking to sell one or two already made up bikes first...
Which shifter were you suggesting?
cheers,
Peter
 
Love the bike!
mechanistic said:
The noise persists:
[youtube]rdI7mB0PpAc[/youtube]

I've never heard such a creaking noise on a bike before. I guess the root cause is a misaligned bearing or sprocket causes wobbling/grinding movement on an axle. You could remove chains one at a time and try it again, you'll know when it gets quiet where to start.

Should then be possible to find with some wd-40 fault detection :D
Probably needs to be fixed, the surface causing the grinding noise will be ruined in a while.
 
larsb said:
Love the bike!

Thanks larsb! I'm really excited to ride it!


larsb said:
I've never heard such a creaking noise on a bike before.

Yes, the noise is quite alarming in person. It is very loud.

larsb said:
I guess the root cause is a misaligned bearing or sprocket causes wobbling/grinding movement on an axle. You could remove chains one at a time and try it again, you'll know when it gets quiet where to start.

Should then be possible to find with some wd-40 fault detection :D

Excellent input, thank you! Evidently, you are an experienced troubleshooter. I agree that the noise is most likely caused by misalignment.

"WD-40 fault detection" I love it! Reminds me of the spray bottle test for diagnosing belt noise...

larsb said:
Probably needs to be fixed, the surface causing the grinding noise will be ruined in a while.

Agreed. Some noises are harmless, just a squeak, rattle, etc. Annoying, but benign.
This noise is more of a "definitely-will-grenade-soon-if-not-fixed" type of thing.
 
PRW said:
Which shifter were you suggesting?
cheers,
Peter

Hi Peter, I was curious which shifter you were using. I've come full circle back to the "light" Rohloff shifter.

I tried the Gebla Rohbox, with converted SRAM X-9 triggers. The trigger actuation effort was really high in my application. Shift effort might be lower with shorter cable runs than possible on the longtail...

Also tried the Cinq5 shifters - similar situation: high force required to actuate.

So, back to the old faithful stock shifter - it has it's own quirks, but it's the best balance of dependability, ergonomics, etc. for me.

Best,

Erik
 
mechanistic said:
Hi Peter, I was curious which shifter you were using. I've come full circle back to the "light" Rohloff shifter.

I tried the Gebla Rohbox, with converted SRAM X-9 triggers. The trigger actuation effort was really high in my application. Shift effort might be lower with shorter cable runs than possible on the longtail...

Also tried the Cinq5 shifters - similar situation: high force required to actuate.

So, back to the old faithful stock shifter - it has it's own quirks, but it's the best balance of dependability, ergonomics, etc. for me.

Best,

Erik
Erik, just the standard twist shifter.
IMG_3678.JPG
cheers,
Peter
 
10-4 -- solid choice. Another thing occurred to me - I've had the best results using brake cable housing, as opposed to shift cable housing. Probably common knowledge, but JIC....

Best,

Erik
 
mechanistic said:
10-4 -- solid choice. Another thing occurred to me - I've had the best results using brake cable housing, as opposed to shift cable housing. Probably common knowledge, but JIC....

Best,

Erik
didn't know about the brake cable housing - thanks!
 
LightningRods said:
It's hard to tell how many rubber isolators you need since you took multiple angles of the same one. I'll send you a full set so that you have extras if you need them.


That would be great, thanks - I'd really like to ride this thing.

Hopefully it's easier to see details with these photos, I've also added a numbered key. LMK if you need more info.


2018-09-19_12-20-35.png


1:
DSC07548.jpg

2:
DSC07549.jpg



2018-09-19_12-22-19.png


3:
DSC07551.jpg

4:
DSC07553.jpg



2018-09-19_12-23-42.png


5:
DSC07561.jpg

6:
DSC07558.jpg

7:
DSC07559.jpg

8:
DSC07560.jpg
 
mechanistic said:
Hi Mike,

Checking in to see if you have any input?

The noise persists:
[youtube]rdI7mB0PpAc[/youtube]

I would really like to get this resolved so the drive is safe enough to road test.
It looks to me like the noise comes from the chain's small sprocket. Most likely, because two sprockets are not in line.
Also, the large sprocket has a lot of axial run-out.
If comes to rubber mounts, machine them out of aluminum and separate your bike frame contact points with rubber strips from old inner tube.
My 2 cents.
 
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