The "Best" way to get outsiders interested in EVs?

[LockH]

... but this can only last for so long.

... before fear and ignorance aka "convention" takes over.

Ps.: I kind of like the tweed cap helmet.

Hehe... Kinda "Funky-style". Comes w/chin strap. Tweed cloth cover over plast-icky helmet. Actually legal headgear (required for Ebiker Rebel Crowd) in this little backwater "Ontario"). Downtown TO (Ebike) retailer sells, designed by those sneaky Norwegians.
http://www.amegoev.com/

 

[rscamp]

I'm already excited about EVs. But when it comes to actually buying an electric car, how can the average person justify it when the cost delta is this great?



The cost is by far the biggest issue...

 

[zener]

I'm already excited about EVs. But when it comes to actually buying an electric car, how can the average person justify it when the cost delta is this great?



The cost is by far the biggest issue...

Well, its actually cheaper!
But most ppl can't calculate.
Just calculae what u would spend the next 8 years for gasoline and oil. (and the additional more maintenance).
Spending 10k or 20k more for the battery is like buying a credit.
Some ecar sellers also offer to rent the battery witha little monthly payment.

 

[arkmundi]

I'm already excited about EVs. But when it comes to actually buying an electric car, how can the average person justify it when the cost delta is this great?

TESLA to Plans to Build World’s Biggest Battery Factory!
... which will bring down the costs for the Tesla. When I visited the Tesla showroom in Houston earlier this year, the salesman confirmed that the 2017 model will be priced in the $30K range and that it be batteries from the gigawatt factory that will make the price cut possible. Then doing a simple total-cost-of-ownership analysis including fuel costs should convince the most skeptical of the cost advantage, never mind the environmental benefits.

 

[John in CR]

I'm with Matt, high performance gets regular people interested.

 

[LockH]

Oh oh. There's that strange "P" word again. ("performance", that remains undefined?) Reminds me of the Dutch language phrase "snuif tabak".

 

[rscamp]

Well, its actually cheaper!
But most ppl can't calculate.
Just calculae what u would spend the next 8 years for gasoline and oil. (and the additional more maintenance).
Spending 10k or 20k more for the battery is like buying a credit.
Some ecar sellers also offer to rent the battery witha little monthly payment.

Okay. Here are the numbers. Sorry for the poor format from copying from a spreadsheet:

18000 km/yr
1.5 $/l
8.5 Avg. Fuel economy l/100km
1530 Fuel cost/yr $
16995 Gas vehicle price
34995 Electric vehicle price $
8000 Tax Rebate $
10000 Cost delta $
175 Electricity fuel economy Wh/km
0.1 Electricity cost $/kW/h
315 Electricity cost/yr
300 Gas vehicle added maintenance (oil changes, etc.) $/yr
300 Electric vehicle battery maintenance cost $3000/10yr
1215 Fuel cost savings $/yr
1215 Total cost savings $/yr
8.2 Payback period yr

Some things to note:

This assumes the two cars (Soul and Soul EV) are both kept for at least the payback period.
I assumed equal absolute depreciation even though the higher cost of the EV and recent history would suggest more absolute depreciation on the EV.
I assumed a fairly low cost of electricity ($0.10/kWh)
I assumed a battery replacement cost of only $3k 10 years out.
I assumed other incidental costs such as insurance are the same.
I assumed a generous government tax credit - this may or may not apply in future.
I assumed a higher cost of gas ($1.50/l) than is current ($1.10/l).
I used my average distance/yr - people who drive more get a shorter payback and those who drive less get a longer payback

Let me know if I got anything seriously wrong. I really want an electric car to work for me and for the average person. I think it will - maybe in just a few years. But right now it doesn't. An 8.2 year payback (or, say, 7.4 year payback for someone who drives the 20000km/yr average) is way too long.

 

[arkmundi]

I thought the 'P' word was Perspective, as in I'll resonate with some things tossed into my intellectual erogenous zone, sometime Performance, sometimes Price and sometimes Pienis .... as in the bigger the better.

 

[LockH]

ACK! (And some thought it pEVerted of me to cuddle my ebike in bed. Sheeshus.

So. (@rscamp) Yer figures are for some "full sized" (like a car) EV??? Cool. (Guessing smaller = less expensive, in many ways.) But still missing health club (optional exercise) fees included? (AKA "pedaling".)

 

[Nast]

Putting people on them is what will do it. It's hard not to get that ebike grin when you first jump on one.

Another thing is not making them look like science experiments. The average person doesn't like to feel too different...

I agree with everything you said. get people riding them, show them is safe, just like a normal bike but with extra power. a lot of potential e-bike riders are like me, older. They aren't looking for a dragster, just a bike that's fun to ride!

 

[peters]

In my country ebikes are not widespread yet, there are just a few, and they are usually still thought of as something for retired people.
But I agree with others, the first thing is to be seen, the second is answering the questions and third is to let them try it.
I noticed when I go out for an off-road riding on the hills around, it is very eye-catching and ear-catching for the people. They just watch and watch and watch. Very interesting and funny when I pass by a couple, the guy watches only for a few seconds then turns away, but the girl turns to me with her full body and stares continuously as long as she can. This is a very frequent scenario, seems to be an instinctive reaction. My bike is a pussy magnet, seriously, as if it would be a supercar. Or is it me? I can't help it
Children are also very curious, the next generation already knows what good is.

 

[amberwolf]

What I am saying in this long-winded thread, is that high performance E-bikes or any EV (if properly built and used) can be very attractive to the general public. I have yet to find any of my friends, neighbors, or acquaintances in any way negative about my bikes. They all have the same reaction "Wow, that thing is fantastic! It is quiet, it is quick, and it looks like a lot of fun!"

I know I am going to get flack over this next statement, but, it really needs to be said.... I think one major problem with the general public accepting EVs is the perceived lack of performance and the "Dork Factor" that is attributed to any electric vehicle. Lets face it, look at the average E-bike on the market. They look like something only a 70 year old lady would be seen riding. They are very plain and generally clunky looking and poor quality. There are exceptions, but in general, this is what I have seen.

We at the Sphere are on the leading edge of what is going on in ultra light weight EVs. Lets put our best foot (feet?) forward and represent our beloved hobby in a way the rest of the public will find appealing. We need to focus on performance, safety, responsibility, esthetics, reliability, all the things that are positive about electric propulsion.

Unfortunately I can't say that mine are aesthetically pleasing.

But at least in the eyes of people that see me all the time, and many that talk to me, my CrazyBike2 that is my daily commuter has performance (most people that test ride it are greatly surprised by how fast it accelerates for how heavy it is), is safe and reliable (I use it for all my transportation needs, even hauling my St Bernards around, and their food, and large/heavy cargo, etc), and I'm a responsible rider, and for those that care to think about anything other than their "normal" routine ICE transportation, it's something that makes them pause and consider.

Of course, becuase I choose not to use a car, a fair number of poeple see me as a kook, because to them a car is part of normal life and you can't possibly be normal without one. For them, it'd take someone with a car-sized EV to test out to get any of them to see the light. (some of them aren't going to anyway, cuz it's different).


The SB Cruiser trike is built to be better-looking and neater (though I can't really afford to spend the money for *good* paint), but at present hasn't got anything remotely performance-like. Gonna have to wait till it's got three-wheel drive to have performance with it. (wish I was local to Oatnet to go get those scooter motor/wheels he's got!).


Other bikes I've built before had no consideration for promoting EVs and ebikes, but I've started to consider that sort of thing for my present and new ones.

 

[zener]

Well, its actually cheaper!
But most ppl can't calculate.
Just calculae what u would spend the next 8 years for gasoline and oil. (and the additional more maintenance).
Spending 10k or 20k more for the battery is like buying a credit.
Some ecar sellers also offer to rent the battery witha little monthly payment.

Okay. Here are the numbers. Sorry for the poor format from copying from a spreadsheet:

18000 km/yr
1.5 $/l
8.5 Avg. Fuel economy l/100km
1530 Fuel cost/yr $
16995 Gas vehicle price
34995 Electric vehicle price $
8000 Tax Rebate $
10000 Cost delta $
175 Electricity fuel economy Wh/km
0.1 Electricity cost $/kW/h
315 Electricity cost/yr
300 Gas vehicle added maintenance (oil changes, etc.) $/yr
300 Electric vehicle battery maintenance cost $3000/10yr
1215 Fuel cost savings $/yr
1215 Total cost savings $/yr
8.2 Payback period yr

Some things to note:

This assumes the two cars (Soul and Soul EV) are both kept for at least the payback period.
I assumed equal absolute depreciation even though the higher cost of the EV and recent history would suggest more absolute depreciation on the EV.
I assumed a fairly low cost of electricity ($0.10/kWh)
I assumed a battery replacement cost of only $3k 10 years out.
I assumed other incidental costs such as insurance are the same.
I assumed a generous government tax credit - this may or may not apply in future.
I assumed a higher cost of gas ($1.50/l) than is current ($1.10/l).
I used my average distance/yr - people who drive more get a shorter payback and those who drive less get a longer payback

Let me know if I got anything seriously wrong. I really want an electric car to work for me and for the average person. I think it will - maybe in just a few years. But right now it doesn't. An 8.2 year payback (or, say, 7.4 year payback for someone who drives the 20000km/yr average) is way too long.

You must also include in your equation that after the 8-10yr useage the battery is still useable (stationary solar storage) with about 60-70% from its innitial cappacity.
There is no $300 a year for battery maintainance.
Also the EV car will at that time have still a good resell price (without the battery) while the ICE only a scrap mettal price.
The EV uses basically only regen braking. The ICE have to pay for new brakes and its installation from time to time.

My calculation comes to about 4-5 years for a payback and after that u drive virtually for free

 

[rscamp]

You must also include in your equation that after the 8-10yr useage the battery is still useable (stationary solar storage) with about 60-70% from its innitial cappacity.
There is no $300 a year for battery maintainance.
Also the EV car will at that time have still a good resell price (without the battery) while the ICE only a scrap mettal price.
The EV uses basically only regen braking. The ICE have to pay for new brakes and its installation from time to time.

My calculation comes to about 4-5 years for a payback and after that u drive virtually for free

Sure, the battery should still have capacity after 10 years but it has deteriorated and therefore it isn't a zero cost item. I have low-balled the cost so it isn't as though I'm making it a big deal. We don't really know the resell value of the EV but it cost so much more to start with the absolute depreciation could easily be greater than for the IC engine car. So that cost can not be hidden. Low usage of brakes on the EV does not make them maintenance free either. The passage of time also causes brakes to require maintenance. This is largely design-dependant.

Let's see your numbers for getting to a 4 year payback with my yearly usage. That would be about my threshold.

In any case, it is obvious that the average car buyer is balking at the price of EVs and that this is the major stumbling block. From a TCO point of view, it won't be until the payback gets to 3 years for the average yearly usage that we'll see a flood of interest from the general public. This is a time period that will get people thinking really hard.

 

[Jackrabbit]

I think the reasons people are hesitant to buy an electric car at this point are fear of running out of power, limited range and long recharge times. Combine these with the cost of purchasing the car in the first place and most decide to play it save and go with what they know. I know the majority of journeys are under 20 miles but what about that day you need to drive 2-300 miles? No fun if you need to stop twice for at least a couple of hours to charge, that's if you can find a charge point. Quite a few people in London are driving i3's and Tesla's so at least here the tide is beginning to change, EV's are the future but at least for the mainstream we are not there yet IMO.

 

[zener]

I think the reasons people are hesitant to buy an electric car at this point are fear of running out of power, limited range and long recharge times. Combine these with the cost of purchasing the car in the first place and most decide to play it save and go with what they know. I know the majority of journeys are under 20 miles but what about that day you need to drive 2-300 miles? No fun if you need to stop twice for at least a couple of hours to charge, that's if you can find a charge point. Quite a few people in London are driving i3's and Tesla's so at least here the tide is beginning to change, EV's are the future but at least for the mainstream we are not there yet IMO.

No! the reason is mainly that there are not enough fast chargestations.
If would had u read the Soul EVcar specification it charges on 230V home electricity in 5 hours from 0% to 100%
And it can be fast charged with a 50KW fastcharge station from 0% to 80% in 30 minutes coffee and cake time. (u realy drive a ICE car 300 miles without stopping?) :lol:
Range is 212 KM for 100% for Europe more than enough for 97% of all travel

A mesh with every 5km a 50kw fastcharge station in your country and EV will get common.

 

[Jackrabbit]

When you compare that range and the nessesary recharge time to a 400+ mile range of almost any petrol/diesel car many will see that as a problem, especially when you factor in the scarcity of fast charge stations. My brother lives 250miles (400km) away from me, a trip I make several times a year, it takes me 3 hours in my car, I fill up before I leave and don't have to stop. I would be very interested to see if the 212km range is achievable in the real world. I'm not against electric cars, far from it, I just think that the majority of the population are not ready to make the change yet for the reasons I have mentioned.

 

[arkmundi]

Its partly why I ride an eBike rather than an electric car. Because with that, I can tap the vast public transportation options, the MBTA, local bus system, etc. Most travel is within 5 miles, easily accomplished via eBike. Better than a car in so many ways. But the buses & trains, accommodating my eBike makes long distances possible. People are far too concerned about their personal convenience, and not enough focused on being part of the solution to climate change. In my opinion.

 

[MadRhino]

In my country ebikes are not widespread yet, ...

95% of them are in Asia, they are not widespread anywhere else, hence the cheap majority.
They will spread the western world when they will get better, or when the Asian countries get richer.

 

[rscamp]

These are good points. Uncertainty is an issue. Range is a major issue. More charging stations help. Some people don't even need the charging stations though. It depends on the usage of the car. For a commuter car (EVs are great for that), charging at home is the norm. Charging at work is also often an option. Regardless, you have a gas station at home and you can (almost) always leave home with a full 'tank'. This convenient 'refueling' is a big plus for EVs.

I'm involved with a group that promotes EVs. We display EVs at events and extol the benefits of the vehicles. From what I have seen, here's what sells them:

1. Information - passing on knowledge of their benefits
2. Test rides! The smooth, quiet torque sells some EVs. (Some day we'll look back and laugh at the inefficient, complicated and difficult to control contraptions we used to use to power vehicles)
3. Low lease rates - Smart EVs move quickly at $99/mo
4. Being in a position to benefit with a favourable TCO - i.e. high yearly mileage, solar power available (residence/farm), daily commute within range, etc.
5. The green factor - the willingness to pay extra for perceived environmental benefits

But nothing will get more people enthused than a lower price. Price is king.

 

[LockH]

BURP
If you scale down an "EV", say, to bicycle/trike size... I can swap packs in about a minute. So from (near) "empty" to "full" in about one minute. (Probably less.) W/zero time spent waiting in lineups just to get to the "pumps". 120V electric "pumps" (plugins) scattered all over urban space. (Carry a pocket-sized charger with me.) Commonly charging while I eat/party, so in that sense takes no time at all. (Tips paid to food/bev servers usually a lot more than electricity consumed.)