The Cycle Satiator, universal charger for the enthusiasts

[amberwolf]

I tested the voltage at the adapter and it fluctuates between like 40 and 70 when pressing force charge

Per the manual, that's what's supposed to happen in Force Start. It means that there is voltage on the connection points you are measuring at, so if tha'ts at the output of the adapter you're using, then it's working like it is supposed to.

For Force Start, when applying voltage there doesn't cause current to flow, the Satiator will detect this, and give up after a short time, because it means there is something else wrong, somewhere between the output you're measuring at, and the battery cells themselves, that is preventing connection.

For example, if a battery has a BMS, then if that has shut off the input due to cells that have gone too low to safely charge, then the Satiator won't be able to charge it. Probably not the case for yours, given you're not measuring any output at one of the connectors along the way, but is something that happens.

If there is a load on the output so that the Satiator detects current flow, it'll stay on normally, obeying whatever the charge profile it's set to tells it to do.

I also voltage tested after the adapter where I Anderson connected my scooter cord (gx12-3 plug into 60v 35AH battery) and get nothing. It just says to plug battery. So for that scooter it's either the anderson on the adapter or the something is wrong with that cord somewhere along the line.

It's not completely clear what youv'e got for connections going on. It sounds you have the XLR output from the Satiator plugged into an XLR-Anderson adapter, and then that plugged into an Anderson-to-GX12-3 plug to connect to the scooter.

Is that correct?

For measurements, it sounds like youv'e got voltage as expected on the XLR output of the Satiator itself, during Force Start. But at the output of the XLR-Anderson adapter, you get no voltage during Force Start.

If that is the case, then something is wrong with the XLR-Anderson adapter.

If instead you mean that you get output there, but not at the GX12-3 plug, then it means the Anderson-to-GX12-3 adapter has a problem.

NOW on my other scooter (60v 15AH battery) that has an XLR connection (so I don't need the adapter) when I plug the XLR straight into the scooter it states that it is charging, and the voltage fluctuates again all over. The amps never go above .02. I left it on the charger for 20 hours total and it finally said charging complete this afternoon. So I turned the scooter on and the battery is only at half power. So this Grin Satiator didn't charge it AT ALL. I am beyond frustrated with this piece of crap. It's looking to me like it's defective.

That's always possible, but there's some stuff to check first:

Whenever I've seen that behavior, it's with a BMS that has turned off the input to protect against overcharging a cell that has too high a voltage, because the cells are unbalanced. So all you get is a little leakage current from the Satiator thru the BMS into the pack, at most, and eventually the Satiator turns off output with "charge complete" because current has flowed, but then dropped below whatever you setup in your profile for that battery as the cutoff current.

Does this battery charge normally with it's original charger?

If not, measure the XLR on the battery/scooter to see which pins, if any, have voltage on them, and how much voltage.

If it does, measure the voltage across the charger XLR pins, noting down which pins you have voltmeter red and black on, and whether the meter shows the "-" sign on the voltage display or not, to verify what polarity it is, and which pair of the three pins it is using, and then do the same on the Satiator, and compare them. While many XLR-connectorized batteries are the same pinout, it is possible for a manufacturer to have chosen to use a different one. If they did, the Satiator's XLR wiring (made for the normally-found wiring option) won't work on that, and you'd either need to make an adapter that crosses wires as needed, or rewire the Satiator's XLR, or rewire the scooter's XLR, so that they match.

 

[synics]

I tested the voltage at the adapter and it fluctuates between like 40 and 70 when pressing force charge

Per the manual, that's what's supposed to happen in Force Start. It means that there is voltage on the connection points you are measuring at, so if tha'ts at the output of the adapter you're using, then it's working like it is supposed to.

For Force Start, when applying voltage there doesn't cause current to flow, the Satiator will detect this, and give up after a short time, because it means there is something else wrong, somewhere between the output you're measuring at, and the battery cells themselves, that is preventing connection.

For example, if a battery has a BMS, then if that has shut off the input due to cells that have gone too low to safely charge, then the Satiator won't be able to charge it. Probably not the case for yours, given you're not measuring any output at one of the connectors along the way, but is something that happens.

If there is a load on the output so that the Satiator detects current flow, it'll stay on normally, obeying whatever the charge profile it's set to tells it to do.

I also voltage tested after the adapter where I Anderson connected my scooter cord (gx12-3 plug into 60v 35AH battery) and get nothing. It just says to plug battery. So for that scooter it's either the anderson on the adapter or the something is wrong with that cord somewhere along the line.

It's not completely clear what youv'e got for connections going on. It sounds you have the XLR output from the Satiator plugged into an XLR-Anderson adapter, and then that plugged into an Anderson-to-GX12-3 plug to connect to the scooter.

Is that correct?

For measurements, it sounds like youv'e got voltage as expected on the XLR output of the Satiator itself, during Force Start. But at the output of the XLR-Anderson adapter, you get no voltage during Force Start.

If that is the case, then something is wrong with the XLR-Anderson adapter.

If instead you mean that you get output there, but not at the GX12-3 plug, then it means the Anderson-to-GX12-3 adapter has a problem.

NOW on my other scooter (60v 15AH battery) that has an XLR connection (so I don't need the adapter) when I plug the XLR straight into the scooter it states that it is charging, and the voltage fluctuates again all over. The amps never go above .02. I left it on the charger for 20 hours total and it finally said charging complete this afternoon. So I turned the scooter on and the battery is only at half power. So this Grin Satiator didn't charge it AT ALL. I am beyond frustrated with this piece of crap. It's looking to me like it's defective.

That's always possible, but there's some stuff to check first:

Whenever I've seen that behavior, it's with a BMS that has turned off the input to protect against overcharging a cell that has too high a voltage, because the cells are unbalanced. So all you get is a little leakage current from the Satiator thru the BMS into the pack, at most, and eventually the Satiator turns off output with "charge complete" because current has flowed, but then dropped below whatever you setup in your profile for that battery as the cutoff current.

Does this battery charge normally with it's original charger?

If not, measure the XLR on the battery/scooter to see which pins, if any, have voltage on them, and how much voltage.

If it does, measure the voltage across the charger XLR pins, noting down which pins you have voltmeter red and black on, and whether the meter shows the "-" sign on the voltage display or not, to verify what polarity it is, and which pair of the three pins it is using, and then do the same on the Satiator, and compare them. While many XLR-connectorized batteries are the same pinout, it is possible for a manufacturer to have chosen to use a different one. If they did, the Satiator's XLR wiring (made for the normally-found wiring option) won't work on that, and you'd either need to make an adapter that crosses wires as needed, or rewire the Satiator's XLR, or rewire the scooter's XLR, so that they match.

Hey thanks for such a detailed reply, I'm impressed! ha. So I tested further tonight. Remade the connections. Verified I am getting a 70v output at the end of ALL connectors and connection points when I press force start. But when plugged into my newer scooter it just won't recognize it and won't start charging, even when trying force start. Meanwhile the chinese charger charges it just fine. The pins are lined up matching the correct line as well. So here I am, two 60V lithium, batteries, one it says it's charging but it's really not, and the other it won't recognize at all. Profile is set to 67.2 volts, 5 AH.

 

[amberwolf]

Hey thanks for such a detailed reply, I'm impressed! ha.

It would help us help you if you would also give the details in your replies that we ask for. If you don't answer all the questions, it's difficult to know all the details necessary to help you.

You're the one there with the stuff. All we can do is guess. The less information you provide, the less useful our guesses are in helping you.

The pins are lined up matching the correct line as well.

Just because pins are lined up so that they plug in doesn't mean that the polarity is correct, nor does it mean that the voltages are on the correct pins.

Please do the checks suggested. Preferably reporting your exact and complete results so we can know what is actually going on, so that we can help you.

So here I am, two 60V lithium, batteries, one it says it's charging but it's really not, and the other it won't recognize at all.

Profile is set to 67.2 volts, 5 AH.

There's a lot more to a profile than just a voltage. Also, a profile doesn't actually *have* an Ah (capacity) setting, so most likely you're inadvertently providing some other piece of information from something else.

What *exactly* are *all* of your settings in the profile?

What *exactly* is the output of your charger that works? Not what it is marked, but what it actually reads when not connected to the battery, or else what it reads when the battery is completely full.

 

[tomjasz]

I have an EM3ev 36V 17Ah battery purchased last year. It was stored in a 50F basement for the winter. Satiator won't recognize it and insists I should plug in a battery. Multimeter reads 29V, an 8V drop since stored. Force charge doesn't work, I get the same message.

 

[mrbill]

I have an EM3ev 36V 17Ah battery purchased last year. It was stored in a 50F basement for the winter. Satiator won't recognize it and insists I should plug in a battery. Multimeter reads 29V, an 8V drop since stored. Force charge doesn't work, I get the same message.

An 8v drop is too much over the winter under such storage conditions, unless the BMS is defective. If you have one of the Bluetooth BMS in the EM3ev battery, check the cells for good health. Then I'd contact EM3ev to get advice. If they are unable to help, you'll have to open up the battery and check cell health yourself. Then if the cells look healthy (if depleted) you'll need to order a new 10s BMS from one of the many vendors who sell them.

Last year Grin recommended this vendor for raw BMS boards, and I have had two orders satisfactorily filled by them in the last year:

https://cl-rd.en.alibaba.com/product/60819302890-806336090/10S_36V_BMS_Protection_Circuit_Module_for_Li_ion_Battery_with_Temp_Sensor.html

I had a BMS do something similar after the battery was stored for some time. It wouldn't allow a charge, but the battery voltage was about 50% (3.65v/cell) and the cells were good. Fortunately, a replacement BMS restored the 7-year-old battery to good health.

 

[amberwolf]

I have an EM3ev 36V 17Ah battery purchased last year. It was stored in a 50F basement for the winter. Satiator won't recognize it and insists I should plug in a battery. Multimeter reads 29V, an 8V drop since stored. Force charge doesn't work, I get the same message.

29v means 2.9v/cell average, it's likely one or more of the cells is lower than that and triggering LVC or even overdischarge protection.

In that case, the BMS has shutoff the input (and output) to protect against recharging causing a potential problem (cell damage, fire, etc), and what you're seeing on the output with a voltmeter is a leakage voltage, not "really" there. If you put a load on it (plug it into a bike and try to turn it on) the output will probably drop to zero.

You may have to open the pack and check cell voltages, then replace the groups that have gone too low (or if unconcerned about potential problems, manually charge the low cells until the BMS allows recharge).

If a single group is dead or very very low vs the others, it's likely either the BMS has a stuck-on balancing channel or a cell in the group has gone bad; either one could drain the group down. There are ways to test for each of those, if you have this problem, before replacing parts.

If multiple groups or the whole pack is just low on average, then the BMS may be the type taht just sucks a lot of power and doesnt' really have a "standby" mode (modern ones aren't usually like that, but some people have had problems with bluetooth ones).

 

[markz]

Seems to be that the Satiator can do I.R. measurements but does it display to the user the IR or health of the pack on the charger?

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=60169&p=977856&hilit=internal+resistance#p977856

Every 30 minute the Satiator briefly drops the current to zero amps in order to measure and cancel out any offset drift in the current sensor. In later firmware releases it will also be using this recalibration in order to estimate the internal resistance of the battery pack as well, by comparing the voltage both loaded and unloaded at the same SOC point.

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=60169&p=956170&hilit=internal+resistance#p956170



https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=60169&p=956170&hilit=internal+resistance#p956170

Since the satiator can be aware of the battery's internal resistance

 

[smart114]

Hello have the grin satiator
I'm very happy with the universal charger.
I ordered a new Ebike with the Bosch Gen 4 CX engine.
Can you optimize the charger so that you can also use it to charge the battery?

The battery has a special feature, it needs an additional 5V to activate the BMS and to charge it.

The battery is a Bosch Intube battery with 625 Wh and 36 V nominal voltage.

I charge other Ebike batteries without problems with the Grin Satiator.
Greetings Martin

 

[tomjasz]

Hello have the grin satiator
I'm very happy with the universal charger.
I ordered a new Ebike with the Bosch Gen 4 CX engine.
Can you optimize the charger so that you can also use it to charge the battery?

The battery has a special feature, it needs an additional 5V to activate the BMS and to charge it.

The battery is a Bosch Intube battery with 625 Wh and 36 V nominal voltage.

I charge other Ebike batteries without problems with the Grin Satiator.
Greetings Martin

Some time ago Justin mentioned developing a "fix" to charge other battery systems. I'm not sure where that stands today.

 

[tomjasz]

Check these threads for more detail,

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=70198&hilit=bosch+battery

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=87910&p=1375872&hilit=satiator+bosch#p1375872

 

[bitnaut]

Hola everyone!

Just received an email from Grin about a potential bug in the v1.032 and v1.034 firmwares. They recommend reverting back to the v1.026 firmware which has been stable for a number of years. Continued use of v1.032/v1.034 has the potential of bricking your charger wherein you’ll have to send it back to Grin to get fixed.

Here’s their email in its entirety:

“Hi there,

If you are receiving this message it's because we have you on record of having purchased a Satiator that may have a 1.032 firmware version. We've begun seeing occasional instances of devices with this firmware suddenly stop working, with nothing displayed on the screen and no ability to communicate with a computer either. We are actively trying to understand the cause of this bug and remedy it but in the meantime, we have reverted back to the long-standing 1.026 firmware on devices we ship now.

We would ask that you power on the Satiator device and look at the firmware that it shows on the splash screen. If it shows 1.032 or 1.034, we recommend downgrading the firmware to the 1.026 release to prevent this bug from occurring and potentially bricking the device. The options to do that are as follows:

1) If you have the USB->TTL programming cable and a suitable adapter, simply follow the instructions here for downloading the Satiator software suite and running a firmware update. The firmware that comes bundled with the software is 1.026 so that will already be present as the default firmware option.

2) If you don't have the programming cables, but you are comfortable reflashing the unit based on the description above then let us know what cables are missing (USB->TTL and/or XLR adapter) and we can arrange an expedited shipment of those parts to you.

3) If you would prefer not to reflash the device yourself, then let us know and we will send an RMA# and return shipping label to send the device back to us. Once it is received we will reprogram the unit here and ship it back immediately, covering the shipping expense both ways.

Please let us know which of those options you prefer. It is also possible to continue using the device as it is, but be aware that there is a possibility of experiencing this bug and the only way to repair it after that is to ship the unit back to Grin.

We're very sorry about this extra trouble and appreciate your understanding while we iron out this wrinkle and continue to work on making new improvements and features in the Satiator charger.


Kind regards,
Ben
RMA's and Product Support”

 

[john61ct]

Good on 'em for being proactive

 

[markz]

I like my Grintech Satiator quite a bit actually, the Grintech battery charge port and the Satiators charge plug for me can be a little bit of an issue trying to orientate the plug into the battery. Need light to orientate everything properly.

A quick solution is to get that silver "paint" marking sharpie to draw a line on the connector and a dot on the battery port.

 

[synics]

My Satiator broke where the cable plugs into the threaded port and the port fell into the charger. So pissed. Also, I just wish this thing had more power, on days where I need a quicker charge, less than 5 amps isn't gonna cut it.

 

[john61ct]

Can parallel as many as you like

 

[markz]

How many of you look at the charging graph on your Cycle Satiator?

 

[famichiki]

Is it possible to charge two batteries simultaneously with a Cycle Satiator? I have two identical EM3ev 52V Jumbo Sharks that I'd like to charge at the same time.

Presuming they are off the bike, do I need anything fancier than a splitter for the battery charging ports?

How does the Satiator decide when charging is complete? Does each battery's BMS halt the charging for itself when full, or will one keep balancing until they are both charged?

Will the batteries charge at half the Satiator's output rate each? If so, then what happens when one battery finishes charging before the other.. will the still charging battery then continue charging but at the Satiator's full output rate?

 

[john61ct]

Is it possible to charge two batteries simultaneously with a Cycle Satiator?

Yes, called parallel charging.

They should both be in healthy condition, and be at a similar voltage before paralleling. Which means similar SoC% and charging time required.

As the Full point is reached, the pack starts drawing less current, so more goes to the "behind" battery. But voltage stays the same for both, all one circuit.

I dunno if Satiator is CC-Only (reach a V setpoint and terminate) or if it holds CV a while until amps drop off.

The charging will take ~twice as long, so no real advantage.

Most BMS if they have HVC protection, will kick in well after whatever you have the Satiator set to.

Cheap BMS should not be used as the primary stop-charge anyway, but as a failsafe backup to prevent a fire when the charger fails.

Balancing is a very different and involved topic, depends on the specific gear you use for that, nothing to do with a normal daily use "bulk / pack-level" charging cycle.

The RC Hobby world has excellent "fused parallel charging boards" good for safety in case you are not tracking SoH% of your packs, one shorting out gets isolated from the rest of the system.

 

[JackFlorey]

The charging will take ~twice as long, so no real advantage.

Constant current period will be 2x as long. But constant voltage period will not be, since the charger is at that point supplying all the current the battery can handle. So you see some savings in time.

 

[famichiki]

They should both be in healthy condition, and be at a similar voltage before paralleling.

Thanks for the info. If the batteries were at very different SOCs, say one depleted and the other half full, would it be OK as long as the individual batteries can handle the charger's full output once they were behind? So, if I was charging at 8A in parallel I'd need to ensure that each battery was actually rated for 8A charging or set a lower rate.

I'm not planning to run them in parallel on the bike, but simply carry a spare on longer trips or when touring. If I can charge in parallel overnight it doesn't matter that the rate is slower, but I can go to bed without needing to tend to them.

 

[amberwolf]

If the batteries were at very different SOCs, say one depleted and the other half full, would it be OK as long as the individual batteries can handle the charger's full output once they were behind?

No, because if the voltages are different, current will flow uncontrollably out the charge port of the higher voltage pack into the lower voltage one.

Uncontrollably because the charge port can only shut off current flow *into* the pack, while the discharge port can only shut off current *out* of the pack, presuming your packs have separate ports for each rather than a single connector.

If the packs have only one port for both charge and discharge, then at least if current exceeds the higher pack's output rating on it's BMS, it *could* shut off the output...but it will turn right back on again and keep pulsing it's max output current into the other one.

If the packs have a current limit on the *input* side (not common AFAIK), then the lower one will shut off it's input, but again it will turn off and on allowing pulses of the other ones' max current into it, and that will heat the FETs and the cells.

Whether any of this will be a problem depends on the actual cells, the BMS, the environmental conditions, the state of charge of each pack, and the total voltage difference vs the total resistance of the system (cells and interconnects) (which determince the actual current that will flow, and all that then determines how much heat is made, and both of those determine if any harm will come to the system).

 

[john61ct]

The charging will take ~twice as long, so no real advantage.

Constant current period will be 2x as long. But constant voltage period will not be, since the charger is at that point supplying all the current the battery can handle. So you see some savings in time.

The CV period - if there is one - will be a small fraction of the CC stage.

Especially as Ah capacity increases by paralleling, cuts the charging C-rate in half.

At the rates I usually charge, CV (again, if any) is usually just a few minutes out of 2+ hours.

Also, note the tilde there, meaning "approximately", other factors come into it as well.

 

[john61ct]

If the batteries were at very different SOCs, say one depleted and the other half full, would it be OK

No that would be stupid.

I told you, make sure the voltages are close before connecting in parallel.

That is a "universal" rule, nothing to do with charging.

The rule of thumb I use for pack voltage, is 0.1V maximum delta

per cell in series.

So 14S means within 1.4V of each other.

 

[john61ct]

If I can charge in parallel overnight it doesn't matter that the rate is slower, but I can go to bed without needing to tend to them.

That shows a lot of trust in your gear, and in your ability to judge SoH of your packs.

I hope everything is in a fireproof location well away from any flammable dwellings.

 

[famichiki]

No dramas, it was just a thought and with everyone's help here I've learned enough to scratch that idea. :thumb: