The death of Peak Oil = The death of green energy?

dnmun said:
multistage hydraulic fracturing has nothing to do with the green river formation and it has nothing to do with the oil sands recovery operations in alberta.

Ummmm, do you suppose that's why he NEVER SAID IT DID?

it is not like it is hard to go study and learn something if you wanna criticize other people.

Nor is it hard to read anothers' posts before attacking them.

iamsofunny said:
Most of the hydraulic fracturing is done in the biodiesel wells to extract soybean oil from the earth. It is natural.

Yeah, but my herd of naughas are getting such tainted hides from it.

fizzit said:
neptronix said:
Hillhater, what's the deal? knowing that the money you pay in taxes ( or at least maybe, your children will pay in taxes ) go to help a middle class person get a fancy car that they can run off coal instead of oil doesn't give you the warm fuzzies?

That is a pretty ignorant thing to say. Starting with the fact that you obviously don't understand what a hybrid is.

Yeah, don't you know that once the coal has been used to generate electricity, it's not coal anymore? Hybrids run on E LEC TRIKE CITY, which doesn't come from a coal mine, it comes from an outlet on a WALL!!!!

"A mind is a terrible thing to waste. But it is far more terrible to lose one's mind, or to have no mind at all."
-Newly sworn Vice President Dan Quayle, speaking to the United Negro College Fund

[youtube]9FeqJ_9Zes4[/youtube]
 
" However, the Nissan Leaf is still better than a gas powered car".

Not to the car buying public. They want something that is practical.

1) Something that you can drive more then 80 miles before you have to fill it up.
2) Somewhere you can charge it.
3) Somewhere you can charge it without having to wait overnight.
4) Somewhere on the road you can charge it.
5) Somewhere on the road you can charge it in less then a couple of hours.
6) Something at a competitive price.

These are not minor issues, like they can't get it in the color they want. These are fundamental issues that need to be addressed before people in any numbers get serious about using these cars for their transportation needs.
 
neptronix said:
fizzit said:
One can help prevent global warming without any sort of "stone age" living. For example... riding an electric bike instead of driving, and driving an electric car.

Right! there are plenty of ways to live on far less fossil fuels/energy. Technology gives us these interesting solutions:

+ electric bicycles / trikes / velomobiles capable of very high efficiency.
+ aquaponic fish/vegetable growing systems, which are closed loop systems that don't require chemical fertilizers and produce very little water waste.
+ at high elevations, 'earthship' style house building can produce a house in places like Colorado, Utah, and northern New Mexico which require almost no heating or cooling whatsoever.
+ how about living at middle latitudes like John in CR? :lol: he probably runs a few 100 watt fans in his house during the day, and that's all the climate control he needs out there. You down to wear sandals and shorts all year? :lol:

So these 3 things can cut your fossil fuel usage the most. Your transportation, your consumption of food, and your house heating/cooling are where you use carbon the most.

So make up your minds, is the planet doomed or is it not?

You mean you can cut back the amount you feel good about and the World wide disaster will be avoided. How about all the believers just getting rid of their cell phones, TV, computers, ice cream, E-transportation... anything that is dear to them, how many species of life will that save. Or is it only all about getting rid of what you people feel that is evil.

"Lets force everyone else to live the way we feel they should live, but don't you dare touch my stuff!"

I'm sure if all the believers would relegate themselves to a "Stone Age" life style, then the World would be saved. But would they do it to save the planet from the doom they believe is going to happen, Noooooo. They want to force their beliefs on everyone else.
 
yes, it is doomed. eternal strife and enmity to the end of days. the change in the jet stream patterns that carry the moisture to the higher regions of the se asia where it is stored as snow and ice, this is the water supply for pakistan and india and it is on an inevitable decline now approaching epic dimensions too. along with the fundamentalists who are tapping into the hatred of the landowners in pakistan because their lives are so desperate.

yes there are those of us who do believe the climate change is making these storms less frequent maybe, but more intense, along with the rising sea levels flooding coastal metropolitan areas. last year was so warm it drove the price of natural gas to 10 year lows. now it has to rebound. but we have tropical moisture here on the left coast, hardly winter at all. tshirt weather. this is the end of days. repent.
 
Dauntless said:
Yeah, don't you know that once the coal has been used to generate electricity, it's not coal anymore? Hybrids run on E LEC TRIKE CITY, which doesn't come from a coal mine, it comes from an outlet on a WALL!!!!

...are you joking? A hybrid produces electricity from the gas engine and from braking, and then uses it to assist with acceleration, thus improving the gas mileage. Neither the prius V nor the Ford C-max that was referenced are plug-in hybrids. Anyways, even coal-generated electricity used to power an electric car is far more efficient than running a car off of gas. I am not going to explain why because this has already been explained in many places across this forum and elsewhere. Needless to say, there are many places in which the majority of electricity is not generated from coal, including my region, where 90% of it comes from hydroelectric dams.

deronmoped said:
So make up your minds, is the planet doomed or is it not?

You mean you can cut back the amount you feel good about and the World wide disaster will be avoided. How about all the believers just getting rid of their cell phones, TV, computers, ice cream, E-transportation... anything that is dear to them, how many species of life will that save. Or is it only all about getting rid of what you people feel that is evil.

"Lets force everyone else to live the way we feel they should live, but don't you dare touch my stuff!"

I'm sure if all the believers would relegate themselves to a "Stone Age" life style, then the World would be saved. But would they do it to save the planet from the doom they believe is going to happen, Noooooo. They want to force their beliefs on everyone else.

Transportation is your largest impact on the environment. Do you honestly believe that owning a few gadgets has any comparison to the environmental impact of driving a car?

It's not about "beliefs." It's about the scientific fact that our activities are impacting the environment. Hopefully most people will pull their heads out of their asses and realize that their actions have consequences, and we can move forward. You are not giving me hope though.
 
It depends on what you define as doomed.

If you look at the Vostok Ice core data, you will see that the earth likes to cycle between heat peaks and ice ages every 100,000-150,000 years. It has been doing this for at least 400,000 years. ( we don't have any records after that. )

last_400000_years.png


This data shows us that the earth has a +/- 10c global average temperature variation. What we are climbing to a heat peak, and an ice age will eventually follow. It is unknown as to whether a massive die-off causes the ice age, or something else. Recorded history does not go that far. But science might conclude that the die-off is responsible

If you dive into what the fossils tell us, the line from apes to humans have collectively lived on this planet for millions of years. They've survived this -10c to +10c variance.

So it depends on what you mean by doomed; i'd say when shit hits the fan, this planet won't be able to sustain 7 billion ( and growing ) of us all at once. We can try to move closer to the tropic line or the antarctic ( say, Argentina, Chile, etc ) because it will be the only habitable place left, but will it support all of North America and Europe?. Think about John in CR in Costa Rica.. does he worry about his electric bill in the winter? nope, he just turns his fan off and closes the windows. What about the summer? oh he probably opens the windows and turns a fan on. Makes living in North America seem ridiculous doesn't it? up here, you burn tons of energy trying to keep your house ~70f and drive a car because bike riding is uncomfortable in the summer and winter.. what happens when the energy runs out, or the land goes dry from evaporation? or.. or.. or..

On the other topic, i don't know a single person who strongly fears global warming & is doing a damn thing about it. They will not voluntarily put the clamp down on their own lifestyle, but they support government measures to use force against people other than themselves to 'fix the problem', but this hurts the economy when meanwhile, said persons could have made some sacrifices themselves. Yeah, go shut down the steel mill and shut down the factories.. see how your city is doing in 20 years as crime and poverty takes over.. you know how that goes if you have ever seen a western or midwestern ghost town. Now we are seeing the effects of being turned into a 'service economy' that buys everything from China, and it is not pretty.

I don't know a single person that lives stone-age style. Maybe about 0.00001% of people in North America do so. But they're probably burning wood for heat. Guess what? that tree that gets burned contains 8 times more carbon per BTU than gasoline. That tree has been soaking up carbon all it's life. Burning wood is even worse. Who wants to shiver in the winter and sweat like a pig through the summer? find me a volunteer. :lol:

But it all comes down to scale. With 7 billion people ( and growing ) dumping massive amounts of carbon and pollutants into the air, land, water.. and with no route away from that kind of lifestyle, population collapse is an inevitability, not a thing that we can prevent. The united nations can't stop it, your government won't stop it, people around you won't stop it ( no matter how good of an argument you provide to your friends to ditch their McMansion and SUV ), so what do you do?

I'll tell you what to do. Enjoy the life you have here. Stop worrying about shit that's not under your control. Nothing is under your control. All life on earth faces hardship - always has, always will. The earth is not made for us and we are only guests here. It's tragic, but that's life. But don't let the tragedy paralyze you; a life spent worrying about things outside of your control is a tragic way to spend your life!

deronmoped said:
So make up your minds, is the planet doomed or is it not?

You mean you can cut back the amount you feel good about and the World wide disaster will be avoided. How about all the believers just getting rid of their cell phones, TV, computers, ice cream, E-transportation... anything that is dear to them, how many species of life will that save. Or is it only all about getting rid of what you people feel that is evil.

"Lets force everyone else to live the way we feel they should live, but don't you dare touch my stuff!"

I'm sure if all the believers would relegate themselves to a "Stone Age" life style, then the World would be saved. But would they do it to save the planet from the doom they believe is going to happen, Noooooo. They want to force their beliefs on everyone else.
 
fizzit said:
Dauntless said:
Yeah, don't you know that once the coal has been used to generate electricity, it's not coal anymore? Hybrids run on E LEC TRIKE CITY, which doesn't come from a coal mine, it comes from an outlet on a WALL!!!!

...are you joking? A hybrid produces electricity from the gas engine and from braking, and then uses it to assist with acceleration, thus improving the gas mileage. Neither the prius V nor the Ford C-max that was referenced are plug-in hybrids. Anyways, even coal-generated electricity used to power an electric car is far more efficient than running a car off of gas. I am not going to explain why because this has already been explained in many places across this forum and elsewhere. Needless to say, there are many places in which the majority of electricity is not generated from coal, including my region, where 90% of it comes from hydroelectric dams.

Are YOU joking? The idea is to charge the PLUG IN hybrid car and run it WITHOUT GAS!!!! At least as much as possible. Do away with the other kind and the requirement of gas altogether. They even do modifications for that. The socalled "Generated from braking" is actually waste, one of these days they'll get come "Clean" on that.

That doesn't even get into the fact they are hard at work on methods to turn coal into liquid fuel to run your car, even your "Hybrid."

Needless to say, there are the majority of places where no electricity is generated by hydroelectric dams. None. You WERE joking, we're you?
 
2 billion, 4 billion, 5 billion...

How many times have we heard that overpopulation was going to wipe us out. Kind like the peak oil, peak mineral, peak (you name it).

Look up the "The Population Bomb". It predicted mass starvation, whole countries starving, by the 1970's if something was not done. Well, it's almost 2013 and people of the World are in much better shape then they were back when the Author's of the book made the prediction in the late 1960's. And how many billions were added?

Sounds all too familiar, Peak Oil anyone, has pretty much the same track record.

The believer's believe in the wrong thing. What they should believe in, is mans ability to take on challenges and overcome them. Their premise is that things are static, that man is static, technology is static. The funny thing is, all the believers keep eating it up. Even when proven wrong over and over again. They just move their goal line down a little further and point to that. "Yeah, I was a little off in my prediction, but I'm right this time, believe me".

Did not any of the believers watch the Charlie Brown cartoons. There was a perfect lesson in there. "I swear Charlie Brown, I will not move the football this time".

Running out of food??? We haven't even started to farm the Oceans. We could probably "easily" feed double the population when start to.
 
Dunno. Which do you think is more important? The big UN Climate Talks In Doha, Qatar?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/25/2012-un-climate-talks-qatar_n_2188048.html

Or Harvard getting an oncampus S&M club?

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/29/harvard-bdsm-club_n_2212806.html?utm_hp_ref=mostpopular

Well, Harvard did get almost as much text, but only because the female student mentioned being hit by a riding crop.

So the news this week says that in the last 20 years the ice has melted three times what they had thought it had. The water is rising by more than an inch each year.

Which isn't going to get the nonbelievers panicking anytime soon.
 
Go Harvard! :lol:

I did catch this recent 'hide your kids, hide your wife' sort spiel that weather.com and huffingtonpost ran:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/27/global-warming-permafrost-thaw-siberia_n_2196876.html

On weather.com ( sorry, can't find the link now ), they were talking about a dead forest being exposed due to the thawing of permafrost, and releasing it's co2.. and i thought yep; this is the earth's natural cycle, dudes. If a forest was there previously, then that part of the world had been warm/hot at least once. The vostok ice core data shows us that what we are experiencing now has happened many times. What caused global warming and an ice age the last hundred times?

800px-Atmospheric_CO2_with_glaciers_cycles.gif


( damn neanderthal SUVs and heated caves! .. )

The antarctic is *gaining* sea ice, while the arctic is losing ice all over at an alarming rate. What does that mean? it means that weather might improve up north, but the southern west will dry up even more. It means that south of the equator, it may end up getting colder.

At the absolute most, the sea level can rise about 150ft-200ft from all the ice that's currently locked up. The earth will change yet again, as it always does. And politicians will sign more ineffective "climate treaties" in order to justify adding more taxes.

Are Argentina, Chile, New Zealand, and Uruguay looking more appealing yet? :mrgreen:
 
Well I've avoided posted on this thread because I'm uncomfortable with being targeted.
neptronix said:
If you look at the Vostok Ice core data, you will see that the earth likes to cycle between heat peaks and ice ages every 100,000-150,000 years. It has been doing this for at least 400,000 years. ( we don't have any records after that. )
last_400000_years.png
Look at that graph again - its the 393 pp CO2 that's a really big worry. This has never happened before, anthropogenic climate change, our burning that carbon store from the bowels of the earth. Temperature will follow.
neptronix said:
On the other topic, i don't know a single person who strongly fears global warming & is doing a damn thing about it. They will not voluntarily put the clamp down on their own lifestyle... But it all comes down to scale. With 7 billion people ( and growing ) dumping massive amounts of carbon and pollutants into the air, land, water.. and with no route away from that kind of lifestyle, population collapse is an inevitability ... I'll tell you what to do. Enjoy the life you have here. Stop worrying about shit .... I'm sure if all the believers would relegate themselves to a "Stone Age" life style, then the World would be saved.
A few thoughts:
  • There is at least one person you know - me.
  • Yes, we're doomed ... heading to 4 degrees of warming (C) and acceleration of the sixth great mass extinction event ... no way there's not going to be a major die-off.
  • To preserve my own sanity, I've reduced my carbon footprint to the point where I'm carbon negative. It does not require a "stone age" lifestyle. It requires intelligence and dedication. I'm on ES because I gave up owning a car and needed a great battery. So the last 6 months in my experiment is going very well.
  • Whatever you do, whatever happens, enjoy life! Always, because it is only from a disposition of happiness that you remain human, so able to respond effectively. I certainly enjoy riding my ebike around more than I used to driving a car around. As a wise person I knew once said "adding worry or concern to a difficult situation doesn't add a damn thing worthwhile"
 
Co2 down from 7,000 PPM to 393 PPM and we are supposed to worry?

And Co2 makes up what percentage of the greenhouse gases, less then 4%? Water vapor makes up 95% of the greenhouse gases. And what's our contribution, a couple of percent of the "total" of all the Co2.

India's population of one billion people produces more carbon dioxide just by breathing than is produced by all the coal-burning power plants in the United States.

They even say were still in the grasp of the last ice age, heck, we need to come out of that before we can start to worry about GW.
 
There's nothing to worry about. Green energy isn't going to die. Unless the rest of the energy kills it.

If they DON'T build the pipeline to bring the oil from Canada, as Warren Buffet would like to prevent, they'll bring the oil by train, as Warren Buffet would like: He bought up Burlington Northern Santa Fe for that very purpose. So you see, the need for cleaner energy will never die, no matter how much coal they try to call "Clean."

Let me demonstrate how much good the effort to protect the environment by preventing the pipeline from occuring. This video is just one example of the kind of engine that is supporting the operation of the railroads in remote areas. Oh, there's an actual train video below that. Another goodie.

And when the pollution kills us, think of all the CO2 we won't be producing anymore.

[youtube]q_0xifuTqVA[/youtube]

[youtube]uOj6gPwkiXg[/youtube]
 
arkmundi said:
Look at that graph again - its the 393 pp CO2 that's a really big worry. This has never happened before, anthropogenic climate change, our burning that carbon store from the bowels of the earth. Temperature will follow.

That carbon number comes from what was measured in ice, not in the air. How much of the carbon ends up in the ice VS how much of the carbon just hangs out in the air, ends up in trees, or wherever, is not known.

So it's not an indicator of how much co2 was in the atmosphere. But what we know is that carbon numbers swing cyclically, and correspond fairly well with temperature.

You might try to live low carbon ( and i would say a lot of us on here are more prone to do the same ), but that's a drop in the bucket compared to the 99.9% of the rest of the world. Even then, you heat your house in the winter, and cool it in the summer, right? ( i'm assuming you don't live on the equator line, maybe 1% of people on this forum do and i can name them off the top of my head :lol: )

You can only be carbon negative if you are dead, and even if you were dead, your decomposition would have produced some CO2. Tell me that you are not a ghost or a black hole, because it would be really weird talking to one :mrgreen: . Because it's impossible to eat living things, heat your house, cool your house, own something propelled by a motor, and inhale and exhale & still be carbon negative. Do one of those things and you've totally destroyed your effort :mrgreen:
 
neptronix said:
arkmundi said:
Look at that graph again - its the 393 pp CO2 that's a really big worry. This has never happened before, anthropogenic climate change, our burning that carbon store from the bowels of the earth. Temperature will follow.

That carbon number comes from what was measured in ice, not in the air. How much of the carbon ends up in the ice VS how much of the carbon just hangs out in the air, ends up in trees, or wherever, is not known.

So it's not an indicator of how much co2 was in the atmosphere. But what we know is that carbon numbers swing cyclically, and correspond fairly well with temperature.

You might try to live low carbon ( and i would say a lot of us on here are more prone to do the same ), but that's a drop in the bucket compared to the 99.9% of the rest of the world. Even then, you heat your house in the winter, and cool it in the summer, right? ( i'm assuming you don't live on the equator line, maybe 1% of people on this forum do and i can name them off the top of my head :lol: )

You can only be carbon negative if you are dead, and even if you were dead, your decomposition would have produced some CO2. Tell me that you are not a ghost or a black hole, because it would be really weird talking to one :mrgreen: . Because it's impossible to eat living things, heat your house, cool your house, own something propelled by a motor, and inhale and exhale & still be carbon negative. Do one of those things and you've totally destroyed your effort :mrgreen:

Yes, we do know that the amount of CO2 in the ice has a steady relationship to the amount in the atmosphere. And the problem is not simply the amount of CO2 in the atmosphere. It is how we fast we are releasing it. Never in Earth's history has this much carbon been released so quickly. Back when there was 7000ppm of CO2, it took thousands of years to climb to that level, and living things had a chance to adapt.

I would also argue that if you plant a lot of trees, you can definitely be carbon negative.
 
Sorry, but trees aren't carbon negative.. they are a carbon sink.. so it's a place for carbon to go - yeah. But a big wildfire is enough to create short term swings in climate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_sink

Even if said tree does not catch fire, it'll die eventually and release it's co2 one way or another.

Fun fact: trees contain 8 times more carbon per BTU of energy than gasoline. They are the dirtiest fuel source that North America uses. The Native Americans used to clog up entire valleys with wood smoke when they ran the show in North America. Many Europeans made note of it on their adventures to here.

So yeah, they used energy like no tomorrow before we made it cool.. ;)
 
neptronix said:
Sorry, but trees aren't carbon negative.. they are a carbon sink.. so it's a place for carbon to go - yeah. But a big wildfire is enough to create short term swings in climate.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Carbon_sink

Even if said tree does not catch fire, it'll die eventually and release it's co2 one way or another.

Fun fact: trees contain 8 times more carbon per BTU of energy than gasoline. They are the dirtiest fuel source that North America uses. The Native Americans used to clog up entire valleys with wood smoke when they ran the show in North America. Many Europeans made note of it on their adventures to here.

So yeah, they used energy like no tomorrow before we made it cool.. ;)

Wow you learn something every day. I didn't know that trees would release the Co2 eventually. Would this no doub come from the decomposition? Would this also occur when putting food in the compost?

Apart from being considerably inefficient for the real estate required, but we have huge amounts of desert which have already had the life sucked out of them by the lack of water etc, we know that there is 99% hot weather above 30 degrees. Why isn't there more technologies applied into solar panel systems in these remote areas (and one technology I saw which involved using mirrors aimed into a specific mirror which directed this heat into water which it boiled and created energy).

I'm sure there is manufacturing costs etc but there are always costs with everything, even something as small as a sneeze would no doubt cause the cogs of manufacturing to begin so that person will have a tissue to wipe their mouth (or usually in my case the lcd monitor in front of me lol).
 
More news of the death of green energy.

The investments into "green" energy have plummeted. Subsidies and mandates for green energy are dying off, countries that were once going to be "green" energy havens are now closing up shop. "Green" energy has run into the brick wall of reality. Trying to run a country off of a energy source that sends you to the poor house is now smacking them in the face.

Same reason no one here is running their lives off of "green" energy. When it actually comes down to paying for it, people just don't have money to burn on pie in the sky ideas.

It all sounded good, until they came back down to reality.

http://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/12/06/is-green-energy-a-fad-that-has-run-its-course/
 
Koch Brothers Fund Bogus Studies to Kill Renewable Energy
Posted: 12/07/2012 9:42 am
Elliott Negin

You can say one thing about the Koch brothers: They don't let the facts get in their way.

Of course I'm talking about Charles G. and David H. Koch (above), the billionaire owners of Koch Industries, the oil, coal and natural gas conglomerate that's been dubbed the "kingpin of climate science denial."

Last summer, Richard Muller, a Berkeley physicist long skeptical of climate science, went off script and announced that his three-year, Koch-funded investigation verified that global warming is indeed real, is primarily caused by human activity, and is even worse than the climate science community thought.

Did Muller's conclusions prod the Kochs to reconsider their hardline position against wind, solar and other renewable energy--our best bet, besides energy efficiency, to combat global warming? Hardly. Koch's minions merely stepped up their ongoing disinformation campaign to scuttle renewable energy on economic grounds.

Take the American Legislative Exchange Council (ALEC) and Heartland Institute, two Koch-funded organizations with a history of attacking efforts to address climate change. ALEC, a stealthy lobby group whose corporate, nonprofit and state legislator members ghostwrite and then attempt to implement "model" legislation, played a key role in killing the Midwest Greenhouse Gas Reduction Accord, a six-state regional cap-and-trade agreement. Meanwhile, Heartland--an ALEC member that hosts annual conferences deriding climate science--is probably best known for posting a not-so-subtle billboard in Chicago last May comparing people who accept the reality of global warming with "Unabomber" domestic terrorist Ted Kaczynski.

More recently the two groups made news when the Washington Post reported ALEC's board of directors adopted a Heartland-crafted model bill that would repeal state standards requiring utilities to ramp up their use of renewable energy. The model legislation, the "Electricity Freedom Act," claims these requirements--currently on the books in 29 states and the District of Columbia--will dramatically drive up electricity rates.

That claim, however, is bunk. In fact, renewable electricity standards have not significantly increased rates. In some cases, rates have even dropped a bit. But more on that later.

Garbage in, garbage out. To make its case, ALEC--whose members include major coal, oil and electric utility industry companies--cites analyses by Suffolk University's Beacon Hill Institute commissioned by the Koch-funded American Tradition Institute and "free-market" state think tanks associated with the Koch-funded State Policy Network. The analyses examine current or proposed standards in more than a dozen states, including Colorado, Kansas, Michigan, Minnesota and New Jersey. The studies were partly funded by, you guessed it, the Koch brothers.

The fact that the Kochs funded the studies doesn't automatically mean they're biased. In this case, however, Beacon Hill research economist Michael Head essentially conceded to Washington Post reporter Juliet Eilperin that he and his colleagues fudged their findings.

That's right.

Beacon Hill, Eilperin reported, "assumed that the Energy Information Administration's projected renewable energy price estimates are too low, and that cost-containment measures embedded in state policies will fail." Head told her that he and his co-authors doubted the cost caps, which place a ceiling on how high monthly consumer electricity rates can go to meet renewable standards, would take effect. "We just left it out so we could provide the actual analysis of the policy itself," he explained.

How convenient.

A closer look at a sample Beacon Hill analysis of a state renewable electricity standard shows that this sleight of hand is just one of a number of ways Head and his colleagues play fast and loose with the facts.

Jeff Deyette, a senior energy analyst at the Union of Concerned Scientists (UCS), dissected a September analysis Head et al. did of a proposed increase in Michigan's renewable electricity standard from 10 percent by 2015 to 25 percent by 2025, which was on the November ballot. Besides excluding the cost cap--a key component of the policy--Deyette found that the Beacon Hill analysts:

• ignored the fact that the state already has a standard in place, enabling them to inflate the costs of implementing the stronger standard;

• made questionable assumptions about renewable energy technologies--often citing out-of-date, controversial or unsubstantiated material to support their assertions--instead of using real-world cost and performance data from local projects; and

• failed to factor in the new standard's benefits, including economic development, job growth, cleaner air and reduced carbon pollution.

Beacon Hill--an official sponsor of this year's Heartland climate science-bashing conference--conducted this particular study for the Michigan-based Mackinac Center for Public Policy. The center, the largest state-based free-market think tank in the country, is a Koch grantee and a member of the Koch-funded State Policy Network. Not surprisingly, the center consistently denies the reality of global warming.

This is not the first time Beacon Hill energy analyses have been questioned. Last year, Michael Conathan, director of ocean policy at the Center for American Progress, a progressive, Washington, D.C.-based think tank, reviewed a Beacon Hill analysis of the potential for offshore wind along the New Jersey coast. According to Conathan, the study--which was heavily promoted by Americans for Prosperity, a political advocacy group founded by and largely funded by the Kochs--"misses the mark on both sides of the ledger by dramatically overstating the costs and underestimating the economic benefits of offshore wind."

The facts on the ground tell a different story. Despite the Koch juggernaut's scare tactics, some evidence is already in, and so far the impact of renewable electricity standards on rates has been, for the most part, negligible. In late October, Steve Clemmer, UCS's director of energy research, surveyed rates in three Midwestern states. This is what he found:

• Wind and other renewable technologies have reduced wholesale electricity prices in Illinois by displacing coal and other energy sources that have higher operating costs, saving ratepayers an estimated $177 million in 2011 alone, according to the Illinois Power Agency.

• Minnesota's standard of 30 percent by 2020 for the state's largest utility, Xcel Energy, and 25 percent by 2025 for all other utilities has had little or no impact on rates for eight of 14 companies that submitted a report to the state Public Utilities Commission. Xcel Energy customer rates actually dropped 0.7 percent from 2008 through 2009, and the company calculates that rates will increase a mere 1.4 percent over the next 15 years. Five other utilities reported modest wholesale rate increases ranging from 1 percent to 6.6 percent in 2010, and one utility reported a 16 percent increase.

• From 2008 through 2010, Wisconsin's 10 percent by 2015 standard nudged rates up only 1 percent. By 2010, renewables were supplying 7.4 percent of the state's electricity, nearly double their contribution in 2006.

A national 25 percent by 2025 renewable electricity standard also would be quite affordable. In 2009, UCS calculated that such a standard would lower annual consumer electricity rates by 4.3 percent, saving ratepayers across the country $64.3 billion on their electricity and natural gas bills by 2025. Meanwhile, a 2010 study by the Energy Department's National Renewable Energy Laboratory (NREL) estimated a 25 percent standard would cost less than 2 percent more a month for a typical U.S. household--an average of $2.37 to be precise. Even that would be a small price to pay to help avoid the worst consequences of global warming, and a poll published last May found that Americans would be willing to pay more than five times that amount for clean energy.

Besides the fact that we can afford to transition away from fossil fuels, keep in mind that we can't afford not to. As I pointed out last month in a Huffington Post blog, global warming, hands down, is the biggest long-term threat to the economy we face.

The good news is renewables have been a bright spot in an otherwise gloomy economy. Over the last five years--with the help of state renewable electricity standards, stimulus spending and production tax credits--U.S. wind capacity has more than tripled and solar capacity has more than quadrupled, boosting employment and attracting private investment. Even with a deep recession and slow recovery, U.S.-based wind turbine, blade, tower and gearbox manufacturing has jumped 25 to 60 percent since 2005.

Likewise, the potential for non-hydro renewables is tremendous. They currently generate only about 5 percent of U.S. electricity, but by 2030 they could produce more than 40 percent, according to a 2009 UCS study. That would more than replace the share currently generated by coal, which is still responsible for roughly 75 percent of U.S. utility sector carbon emissions. Looking even further down the road, NREL concluded earlier this year that today's commercially available renewable technologies could adequately generate 80 percent of U.S. electricity by 2050.

But you won't hear any of that from the Koch propaganda machine.

Elliott Negin is the director of news and commentary at the Union of Concerned Scientists.
 
I won't deny that, but there has been FUD on both sides. Any interested party in their right mind will attempt to try to fight something that could destroy their business. Would you expect anything else from oil barons or their henchmen?

Yep, the Koch brothers are wrong, so are Shell, BP, Exxon, bla bla bla but 99% of self claimed environmentalists fill up their car with gasoline that these companies produce and drive it to work every day ( if they have jobs anyway ). They heat their homes in winter, they cool their homes in summer, buy crap from a country 6,000-8,000 miles away that comes on a ship that burns something called 'bunker fuel', don't oppose wars for oil ( unless a republican is waging them ), so..

What's the bloody point of environmentalism if you don't have solutions to offer? or better yet, if you have solutions to offer but >99% of the world will take them?
 
neptronix said:
.... but 99% of self claimed environmentalists fill up their car with gasoline that these companies produce and drive it to work every day ( if they have jobs anyway ). They heat their homes in winter, they cool their homes in summer, buy crap from a country 6,000-8,000 miles away that comes on a ship that burns something called 'bunker fuel', don't oppose wars for oil ( unless a republican is waging them ), so..
And here I've been wearing my "We are the 99%" badge when all along I'm part of the 1%, an environmentalist who gave up the use of a car so as to have a zero carbon footprint. :lol:
 
Imagine where we'd be if we took all the money the US wasted on the Iraq/Afghanistan war and spent it on solar panels or other renewable energy sources. In a way, the US lost the war againt terrorists. The insane amounts of money wasted have devistated the economy and there is a real danger of complete collapse at some point in the future. Just stupid...

But people are generally pretty stupid anyway. Just look at the Yahoo home page. People care more about what Lady Gaga is wearing or what the latest materialistic staus symbol is than the future survival of humans.
 
I read these kinds of threads, often here on ES . It upsets me in the worst way. As I have no answers and or suggestion.
My bike is not going to haul all my tools, nor to home depot, to buy all the inporteed crap, that will make my repair fail in do time!! I hate this Shit !!
I am Crying !!
 
Back
Top