The death of Peak Oil = The death of green energy?

[deronmoped]

this cheap energy we will be tapping into, will rescue us. They speculate that we are sitting on 100 years of supply. . . .

Rescue? Or create an extension ladder that allows us to dig a deeper and deeper hole up to the moment when. . . .

100 years supply at current useage. Double useage and it's a 10 year supply. 10x useage is a 10 year supply. I'll sell 10x as much gas at 2x the price so I get rich for 10 years, hopefully I save enough to live on after wells are empty. . . .

Another man-kind kill-joy.

I love it when you guys poke your heads up and complain "The Sky Is Falling".

You guys have got to stop reading your history books backwards.

1) Lifespans are not getting shorter.
2) You didn't just move into a house without running water, electricity, internet... or did you?
3) Your next car will not be getting fewer MPG.
4) The Dreamliner is 20% "more" efficient, not 20% less.
5) Didn't the major automakers (in a big way) just start to introduce E-cars, or did you miss that.
6) The USofA "is" going to be pretty much self sufficient in energy in the not to distant future.

You seem to have missed your chance at Hale-Bopp.

 

[Dauntless]

Okay, i seriously laughed out loud at that one!

It's a pity I found that on someone's blog and not where they're selling the tshirts. I go to the Conte Nast store and they sell a copy of the cartoon for $125 but there is no sign of the tshirts.

Lots of great cartoons, though.

 

[Dauntless]

Another man-kind kill-joy.

I love it when you guys poke your heads up and complain "The Sky Is Falling".

You guys have got to stop reading your history books backwards.

1) Lifespans are not getting shorter.
2) You didn't just move into a house without running water, electricity, internet... or did you?
3) Your next car will not be getting fewer MPG.
4) The Dreamliner is 20% "more" efficient, not 20% less.
5) Didn't the major automakers (in a big way) just start to introduce E-cars, or did you miss that.
6) The USofA "is" going to be pretty much self sufficient in energy in the not to distant future.

You seem to have missed your chance at Hale-Bopp.

Hmmm, looks like I'll be needing more of those tautology cartoons.

In the meantime, did you perhaps have some sort of --- POINT --- you wanted to make? Did you happen to notice the joy that cartoon brought Neppy? NEPPY, for christsakes, was JOYFUL!

And what makes you think I missed out on Hale-Bopp?

 

[deronmoped]

Another man-kind kill-joy.

I love it when you guys poke your heads up and complain "The Sky Is Falling".

You guys have got to stop reading your history books backwards.

1) Lifespans are not getting shorter.
2) You didn't just move into a house without running water, electricity, internet... or did you?
3) Your next car will not be getting fewer MPG.
4) The Dreamliner is 20% "more" efficient, not 20% less.
5) Didn't the major automakers (in a big way) just start to introduce E-cars, or did you miss that.
6) The USofA "is" going to be pretty much self sufficient in energy in the not to distant future.

You seem to have missed your chance at Hale-Bopp.

Hmmm, looks like I'll be needing more of those tautology cartoons.

In the meantime, did you perhaps have some sort of --- POINT --- you wanted to make? Did you happen to notice the joy that cartoon brought Neppy? NEPPY, for christsakes, was JOYFUL!

And what makes you think I missed out on Hale-Bopp?

Figures, you Heaven's Gate's followers wouldn't leave Earth without internet access.

Who the hell is NEPPY, for Christmas sakes

 

[deronmoped]

"Who Needs Kyoto? Cheap Natural Gas Is the Answer"

More of the same, the odd thing is, how true it is that some solutions are right under our noses.

http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/the-exchange/needs-kyoto-002642844.html

 

[Dauntless]

"Who Needs Kyoto? Cheap Natural Gas Is the Answer"

More of the same, the odd thing is, how true it is that some solutions are right under our noses.

http://finance.yahoo.com/blogs/the-exchange/needs-kyoto-002642844.html

And who needs the whole Japanese Earthquake/tsunami/radiation thingee? FRACKING is the answer. The radiation it has brought out of the ground in water that our cattle then drinks is also right under our nose!

https://www.commondreams.org/headline/2012/01/17-3

Let me get across to you that I receive checks for natural gas. I thought what I already said was plain enough. (The oil was all taken when Dubya was president, but of course as that price flew up gas would do well so there was a back door available.) If we rush to use up all this natural gas in my lifetime, driving up the price higher than it is today of course, I get to spend all kinds of money, but what the hell good is that? If we don't let the gas last us 100 years, what will then run through all those pipes to reach your furnance and water heater? Maybe they'll figure out a way to do the fracking that isn't destructive IF they're given some time. We just make them frack everything in a rush because we gotta have all the natural gas NOW, that will leave us with quite the ecological disaster.

Here I was worried I wouldn't find a way to get some of these illustrations in.

 

[Dauntless]

Who the hell is NEPPY, for Christmas sakes

That's an old picture of him there. There's a newer one here. http://neptronix.org/

 

[arkmundi]

IT'S OVER: Why Everyone Is Losing Hope For Green Energy

On the surface, green energy sounds like a great idea. Unfortunately, it is extremely costly and requires heavy government subsidies. Last year, the epic downfall of Solyndra — the former solar cell manufacturer backed by the Obama administration — was one of the most notorious blows to the industry. As with most young industries, experts argue that green energy just needs time before it can reach economies of scale and become cost effective. But lately, those time frames have become extended. Meanwhile, fossil fuels like coal and natural gas continue to be devastatingly cheap.

 

[arkmundi]

IT'S OVER: Why Everyone Is Losing Hope For Green Energy

Note that from the above chart, wind remains highly competitive. But add in the RPS of a state like Massachusetts, and renewable energy, in a mix with other sources, is a necessity for any player on the grid. What's not really seen yet, however, are the economies of scale for large offshore wind. We're talking the class of turbines <5mW.

 

[TylerDurden]

Warren Buffet Utility Buys Solar Projects From SunPower In $2.5 Bln Deal
By RTT News, January 02, 2013, 11:01:00 PM EDT

(RTTNews.com) - MidAmerican Energy Holdings Co., a company controlled by billionaire investor Warren Buffett'sBerkshire Hathaway Inc. (BRKa, BRK-A, BRK-B), has acquired two solar photovoltaic power plant projects in California from SunPower Corp. ( SPWR ), the two companies said Wednesday.

MidAmerican will pay an amount between $2 billion and $2.5 billion for the sale, construction and operation of the projects by SunPower.

The two co-located projects in Kern and Los Angeles Counties in California are part of the 579-megawatt Antelope Valley Solar Projects. Together, the two combined projects will form the largest permitted solar photovoltaic power development in the world and will create an estimated 650 jobs during construction.

Construction of the solar projects is scheduled to begin in first quarter 2013, with the plants expected to be complete by the end of 2015.

The Antelope Valley Solar Projects will provide renewable energy to utility company Southern California Edison or SCE, under two long-term power purchase contracts approved by the California Public Utilities Commission.

SunPower, a subsidiary of French oil giant Total SA (TOT, TTFNF.PK, TTA.L), developed the co-located Antelope Valley Solar Projects over the last four years.

At the 3,230-acre site, SunPower will install the SunPower Oasis Power Plant product. In addition, SunPower will be the engineering, procurement and construction contractor and will operate as well as maintain the facility under a multi-year services agreement.

MidAmerican Renewables, a subsidiary of MidAmerican Energy, has a total portfolio of more than 1,830 megawatts of owned assets, including wind, geothermal, solar and hydro assets.

Projects of the company's subsidiary, MidAmerican Solar, include the 550-megawatt Topaz Solar Farms in San Luis Obispo County, California, and a 49 percent stake in the 290-megawatt Agua Caliente solar project in Yuma County, Arizona.

Bill Fehrman, president of MidAmerican Renewables said, "We are excited about these projects because they support our core business principle of environmental respect. We are very proud to add SunPower technology to our portfolio of projects."

According to estimates provided by the U.S. Environmental Protection Agency, the project is expected to offset more than 775,000 tons of carbon dioxide emissions per year, which is equivalent to removing almost three million cars from California's highways over 20 years of the plant's operation.

SunPower has more than 1,000 megawatts of solar power plants operating worldwide, including the first 130 megawatts of the 250-megawatt California Valley Solar Ranch, which is under construction in San Luis Obispo County, California.

SPWR closed Wednesday's trading at $6.13, up $0.51 or 9.07 percent on a volume of 2.06 million shares.

BRK-B closed trading at $93.20, up $3.50 or 3.90 percent on a volume of 7.53 million shares.

http://www.nasdaq.com/article/warren-buffet-utility-buys-solar-projects-from-sunpower-in-25-bln-deal-20130102-00971#.UOZeBekayN8

 

[dnmun]

i would prefer they just removed the three million cars from the highways. that will free up traffic and they don't have to give warren all the tax credits for the production from the plants. win win.

 

[TylerDurden]

Largest Kansas wind farm now fully operational
Posted on January 04, 2013
AP via Bloomberg

WICHITA, Kan. (AP) — The largest wind farm ever built in Kansas is now in full commercial operation.

BP Wind Energy and Sempra U.S. Gas & Power said Thursday the $800 million Flat Ridge 2 Wind Farm generates 470 megawatts of electricity.

Flat Ridge 2 is spread over a 66,000-acre site that spans parts of Harper, Barber, Kingman and Sumner counties in south-central Kansas.

The companies say the farm uses 294 turbines each with the capacity to produce 1.6 megawatts, generating enough electricity to power more than 140,000 average American homes.

Power generated from the facility will be exported to Missouri, Arkansas and Louisiana.

The project created more than 500 jobs at the peak of construction. About 30 permanent jobs have been created to monitor and maintain it now that it is online.

http://www.businessweek.com/ap/2013-01-04/largest-kansas-wind-farm-now-fully-operational


470MW = Ft. Calhoun nuke

 

[HAROX]

Flat Ridge is 470MW produced from 68000 acres; Agua Caliente is 290MW produced from 2400 acres.
Efficiency difference?
140 acres vs 8 acres for 1MW? Or the difference between .006 and .12, or 20 times more efficient, seemingly, at Agua Caliente, on less land?
edit
'scuse me, the math says 200 times more efficient at A=C.nope, 20 times. MORE efficient.

 

[Gordo]

Flat Ridge is 470MW produced from 68000 acres; Agua Caliente is 290MW produced from 2400 acres.
Efficiency difference?
140 acres vs 8 acres for 1MW? Or the difference between .006 and .12, or 20 times more efficient, seemingly, at Agua Caliente, on less land?
edit
'scuse me, the math says 200 times more efficient at A=C.nope, 20 times. MORE efficient.

How do you compare wind to solar? Darkness to wind? Annual averages? Value of power from various sources? Renewable (interruptible) power is normally sold for 50% of constant power (nuke, thermal or hydro). Comparisons become difficult especially when cost is based on time of day.
Efficiency based on area occupied vs area of the wind turbine base seems a little strange and meaningless. You can farm 99% of the 68000 acres depending on the terrain, as in the Gaspe.

 

[HAROX]

Efficiency based on area occupied vs area of the wind turbine base seems a little strange and meaningless. You can farm 99% of the 68000 acres depending on the terrain, as in the Gaspe.

Well, from a seeming meaningless crude calculation, I could see the future life of green energy being long, not short. And yes, you can't farm around solar panels very easily, if at all.
If "farming" on 68000 acres of subdivision rooftops, solar panels might be the ticket. IN that case, the yield could be discernible, though as I understand, the yield would still be trumped by wind and oil.

 

[arkmundi]

How do you figure, that alternative energy like wind is cost competitive?
Wind energy is worthless on it's own. With wind energy you need two generating stations. The actual generating plant and the windmill. So for wind generation your building twice the capacity at twice the expense....

Massachusetts market, RPS, RGGI, MassCEC, etc. Perhaps you may be right for other places. But you are just SO WRONG about here. Not only is wind cost effective today, it will be the least costly generator in future years as the RPS kicks in more & more.

 

[Dauntless]

Hey, enough arguing about oversold numbers. Neither can deliver what the extremist promoters are claiming. What was the one last summer about powering the entire country on 100 square miles, or whatever? Certain things are going to work better in certain areas, NOTHING will be cost effective if you go overboard and demand it everywhere. This is NOT something to be singing

'My numbers are better than your numbers,
my numbers are better than yours. . . .'

about.

 

[HAROX]

Oil up the fire, mates, the weasels have broke out their sidearms! We'll have weasel for dinner tonight!

 

[Grey beard]

How do you figure, that alternative energy like wind is cost competitive?
Wind energy is worthless on it's own. With wind energy you need two generating stations. The actual generating plant and the windmill. So for wind generation your building twice the capacity at twice the expense....

Massachusetts market, RPS, RGGI, MassCEC, etc. Perhaps you may be right for other places. But you are just SO WRONG about here. Not only is wind cost effective today, it will be the least costly generator in future years as the RPS kicks in more & more.

Cost effective? I guess that must depend on how much money you have to burn. The multi billion $ project off MA get several cents per kilowatt hour subsidy, and they contracted to sell the power for 18.7 cents. Competitive?
In addition they get a huge tax credit they can sell, each year, for years. The only reason most of these green energy deals are going is they can sell the tax credits to Companies who are making profits, so they can reduce their tax liabilities.
I have a home on the Big Island, Hawaii. Power is produced by Geothermal and wind and the cost is huge. If you take your bill, and divide by kw used, the cost per kw is near 55 cents. I don't know if anyone has tried to reclaim it, but a large wind farm at Southpoint on the Island has been shut down for some time.

 

[arkmundi]

 

[steeeve]

This is the most ridiculous thread I have ever seen. It is a dirty and insidious business.

1) Fracking utilizes a finite resource. The Sun will produce energy for another 5 billion years. How many years do you think natural gas can meet demand, especially when factoring growth?

2) The industry wont say what it's pumping into the ground. If its non-toxic why don't they sign a non-disclosure agreement with a 3rd party agency and prove it?

3) The fossil fuel industry makes a huge mess everywhere. They don't care about anything but money. Why should we dig in the ground for energy?

4) Natural gas is killing the coal industry.The natural gas turbines can be switched on and off quickly to correspond to demand. Its cheaper to turn a natural gas turbine on for 30 minutes than keep a coal power-plant running all day long. Renewable energy, hippies, democrats, lack of coal, aren't responsible. Its the massive installation of natural gas turbines. This is where it gets interesting. Natural gas helps develop renewable energy technology. It's true, let me explain. The natural gas turbines solve renewables' problem with not being an on demand energy source. I am talking about utility scale energy production, Bubba. While utility scale energy storage is being perfected, natural gas complements renewable energy quite well. They may be in competition with one another but natural gas helps enable wind and solar installations. Natural gas is the end of the line for fossil fuels.

5) Natural gas and renewable energy are close competitors, economically. Solar and wind are a developing industry. Renewables haven't enjoyed 100 years of subsidies, profits, total market share and lobbying . The money invested into solar and wind now will help achieve the economy of scale that is optimal. Natural gas may deliver a ton of profits real quick but the benefits aren't democratically distributed like Sunlight. The price of natural gas historically fluctuates like hell. It may be economical to utilize natural gas now but that doesn't mean it will remain that way. I know that the price of electricity slowly rises and the sun's output remains pretty constant. Solar is stable.

6) I have no problem with residential solar's rate of return, in my area, of 12%.

Fracking is for greedy douchebags. I know the natural gas bubble will burst. Renewable energy and EV's aren't going away. They are more efficient and here to stay.

 

[Dauntless]

This is the most ridiculous thread I have ever seen. It is a dirty and insidious business.

deronmoped STARTED it!

Well I've avoided posted on this thread because I'm uncomfortable with being targeted.

Don't think I saw anyone get a shot off at ya. And this has been a somewhat fight club thread.

Imagine where we'd be if we took all the money the US wasted on the Iraq/Afghanistan war and spent it on solar panels or other renewable energy sources.

Imagine the trouble you'd have been in if you said that before the Iraq invasion.

Okay, I guess it's about time we all accept the truth. Turns out nuclear power IS the clean energy solution of the future. We should go ahead and admit the only reason we REALLY opposed it was to piss off the pronukers. It even sounds like it has this kewl orchestra playing for it when it blows up. So I also have this great footage of these soldiers getting the chance to watch a nuke go off up close and personal, back before the government stopped letting us to that because of all the cancer and mutants and giant ants and stuff. Little did these guys know that the whole reason they were there was so that the government could study how they died over the next few decades. Ain't it great to have a government that thinks ahead like that? Good thing we have them to force things on us.

Gotta love those signs.

[youtube]EniBqALyAEA[/youtube]

[youtube]ZWSMoE3A5DI[/youtube]

 

[MikeFairbanks]

The human is one heck of a smart primate, populating and developing the planet at a remarkable rate.

But we think too much of ourselves. This planet is a large, sphere of molten iron and rock, with a thin layer of crust, water, and gasses.

It was around long before us, and will continue long after us.

What the worst-case scenario, human extinction? Is that really a bad thing?


In the film Moonraker, who was really the bad guy in the end, Drax or James Bond?

 

[arkmundi]

Drax, of course!

Frederick Gray! What a surprise. And in distinguished company, all wearing gas masks. You must excuse me, gentlemen, not being English, I sometimes find your sense of humor rather difficult to follow!
You have arrived at a propitious moment, considered to be your country's one indisputable contribution to Western Civilization: Afternoon tea.
First there was the dream, now there is reality. Here in the untainted cradle of the heavens will be created a new super race... From their first day on Earth they will be able to look up and know that there is law and order in the heavens.

 

[Architectonic]

The problem with nuclear is that it is very expensive. In Australia a solar thermal plant (i.e. the one in the planning stages to be built at Port Augusta) will be cheaper and more effective, since we don't have all the refining infrastructure (and so on).