The politics of NiMH

[jdh2550]

On another thread a side discussion of NiMH arose. Rather than take that thread further "off into the weeds" I figured I'd bring it over here.

Hopefully others will want to discuss this further.

First to speak to the NiMH vs. LiFe debate as far as EV usage. Here's my understanding: LiFe is better than NiMH (better = significantly greater energy density and somewhat better discharge characteristics) and over time the price will become more competitive. I don't know enough to know whether NiMH can always be cheaper - but I suspect not. Of course a better energy storage technology might come along that leapfrogs both and makes both obsolete (for EV usage). Personally I'm hoping EEStor is more than smoke and mirrors.

Now as far as NiMH politics goes

1) NiMH is still great today but should have been even better if Cobasys hadn't sat on the technology.

2) Yep, as usatracy said the GM EV1 went from crap Delco SLAs to decent Panasonic SLAs to fantastic Nickle Metal Hydrides. At the time this was brand new technology and was invented by an inventor here in Michigan. The company was Energy Conversion Devices Ovonics. The inventor was Stanford R. Ovshinsky.

3) Big companies, and especially big car companies, much prefer to own what they use. So they bought the rights from ECD.

3) For some reason GM canned the EV1 program. They say it wasn't feasible. However the timing of dropping the program conveniently coincided with when it appeared that California's Zero Emission Vehicle law would not come into affect. Some of us believe that GM never wanted to do an EV in the first place and despite spending millions couldn't wait to stop.

4) GM sold the battery technology to Texaco which was then bought by Chevron. Chevron and ECD formed a joint venture called Cobasys. Cobasys owns the patent and receives a royalty payment on every NiMH battery sold (even the AA cells).

5) Despite the ability to make money licensing the technology Cobasys refuses to license large capacity (high Ah batteries) for personal transportation. (They do have a very large pack designed for Hybrid buses).

6) Cobasys has successfully defended it's patent (which is apparently down at the cell level and can't be engineered around). One of the biggest settlement's and most important from EV's perspective is the settlement of Toyota & Panasonic vs. Cobasys. Panasonic is (at least partially) owned by Toyota and made NiMH batteries for the very successful RAV4-EV. Panasonic believed their process was sufficiently different from Cobasys' - it's not like they just started making these batteries and hoped no one would notice. The courts ruled otherwise.

7) The details of the settlement were sealed (why?) - it is generally believed that the amount of the settlement was $30M and it prohibited Panasonic (or anyone else) from selling a battery (not a cell) larger than 10Ah.

8 ) For some reason Toyota canned the RAV4-EV. They too say it wasn't feasible. Same deal as with GM - regardless of whatever "feasibility" they were speaking to they no longer had a compelling reason to have an EV.

9) None of this is conspiracy. All the usual BS of big business. However, the bummer is that the EV1 would be 10 years old today. If GM had had the brains/guts/determination to stick with it just think where the EV4 would be today?

10) usatracy's comment about the "real journalist" statement skews us towards looking at the future. Most of my above is helping to explain the past so that we may learn from it and not repeat the mistakes in the future.

From my perspective:
1) The most shame award goes to Cobasys for stifling access to this technology which could have allowed independent access to an important area of R&D - namely BEVs.
2) The most naivety award goes to the consumer and the government for expecting that we can ever persuade the big auto companies to produce a BEV. A BEV will hurt them in terms of short (and perhaps medium) term profits and dealer relations (which, IMO, is why they love ethanol and hybrids - keep that ICE technology alive as long as possible)
3) The biggest dinosaur award goes to the American car companies. Turf protection is short & medium term at best. Sure, it's going to hurt to change - but change or die. Most large technology changes come from small outsiders not established players (do you remember when that little company called Microsoft released this silly little OS that ran on this silly little computer with almost no power?). Nah, don't worry that can never happen to you your much too smart...
4) The most gutless award goes to legislators that must know all this and more but refuse to slap Cobasys with some form of anti-trust action. They also allow themselves to be swayed by flawed arguments from big oil and big auto. All in the name of getting the most money to spend to gain the most votes. Way to go guys! We appreciate it...
5) The most disruptive influence goes to Wall Street. I don't "blame" the car company CEO's. Their job is very clearly defined - increase shareholder value. Shareholder value is determined by the stock market. The Wall Street talking heads have a big affect on the stock market. All this results in a deadly short term view for large companies traded primarily on the US stock exchange. IMO, one of the reasons Toyota is in a (slightly) better position with regard to a longer term vision is that their investment structure is very different from their US counterparts.

OK, that was a mega-rant, huh? Please go ahead and take me to task over these points.

It is important stuff and it is important to all of us.

Already GEM has an exclusive rights for EEStor technology. GM has some form of agreement with A123. Let's not repeat history and have new energy storage technology locked away and restricted to a relatively few engineers...

Also, this sad tale is also why you and I can't buy a 30Ah NiMH battery to power our two wheel EVs - which, let's face it, are NEVER going to challenge the car industry...

Despite all this I am optimistic that BEVs will make it. There are more and more "almost there" examples coming from sources independent of big oil and big auto. It shows that you can't keep a good idea down.

However, what is depressing is that you can slow down it's adoption...

Oh well.

 

[TylerDurden]

No beef w/ the above.

Two more pennies in the fountain:

China.

Google.

No prior agreements are going to stop either of those sleeping-giants from changing just plain everything.

 

[BiGH]

see the same thing happened with GIF image compression - the LZW patent was owned by a company that wanted to charge incredible amounts for its use, thus making it unfeesable to use, but then along came JPEG which to a large extent made gif obsolete (althought not entirely).

Wait for the widespread adoption of LiFEPO4 cells... i'm sure they will have the same effect.

The way i see it there are a few stages we have to go through. We've progressed from using NiMHs to the stage where we're adopting lithium technology. but as lithium cobalt and other chemistries get more popular (they've almost reached a cridical point in my opinion - i wouldn't buy a battery that wasn't lithium unless i HAD to - i've just had too many bad experiences with NiMH, and Nicad.)

as we get increasing amounts of fires and explosions due to the dangerous Li cells i think you'll find a major swing to lithium phosphates - the "safe" batteries. They also just happen to be the best - and then of course a better techology will become available, or more widespread.

I wouldn't mind seeing fuel cells become common place.

It isn't hard to generate Hydrogen and oxygen at home using solar power, the problem is it is very expensive to go the other way becuase of the desired use of a platinum fuel cell membrane.


regarding large cells: You can still make larger cells out of smaller cells - and yes while it is important to have them, it does not entirely stop electric vechicles from continuing - ie tesla motor corp and all the ebike / electric car owners who have built their own packs.

either way i'm working towards my goal of running the electric bike for most commutes / journeys - that'll be my contribution (as well as documenting it) lead by example! now where is my logo of an electric barracuda

 

[jdh2550]

you can still make larger cells out of smaller cells

No you can't. You can make larger batteries out of a collection of small cells. But that's not the same as making a larger cell. Those smaller cells combined as one battery will most likely not perform as well as a single larger cell. It's all to do with the Peukert effect - see that other thread from whence this came.

tesla motor corp and all the ebike / electric car owners who have built their own packs

Tesla uses old style Li-Ion packs and has spent millions on engineering a safe operating environment for them. Ebike owners in general don't need high amp draws so they're not as affected by the combining small cells approach. I'm not sure I know of many examples of EV DIY'ers who have attempted to use NiMH (I suspect because of the problems of sourcing high amperage cells).

but then along came JPEG which to a large extent made gif obsolete

Can't say I agree with that - they're fundamentally different tools. One is lossy for photographic style images. One is lossless for "icon" style images. Try and use one for the other and you'll generally get crappy results. I do agree that the LZW patent owner (was it Unisys?) was wrong headed - however, a graphics compression algorithm is inconsequential compared to this stuff - I doubt anyone would go to war to secure access to a particular codec....

Yes we can wait for widespread adoption - but I don't want too many people to wait too politely. As the Cobasys and NiMH scenario shows it can be a mistake to rely on good intentions. Instead we should put pressure on to get access to these larger cells (for examplle mcharles13 mentions that he can't get access to A123's large cells)

 

[knightmb]

Well, I couldn't wait to jump in on this one
<start rant>
Right now, NiMH packs have doubled or tripled in price. I haven't followed the price of the cells as much, but it seems it's all around. I've read everything from nickel metal price increase to various other global variables in the world economy. So it's almost not worth the time to get NiMH packs, when Lithium does the job for lighter/high capacity right now.

So who is going to capitalize on this? Well, every other foreign nation basically. The Chinese and Koreans are going into Lithium battery overdrive right now. They can produce more, for cheaper, and for the most part, at good quality. I'm having e-mail exchanges right now with a guy from China about custom Lithium battery packs of just about any size, voltage, capacity that I can imagine. To hopefully aid in a future EV project (converting the wife's old Camary into all electric)

It's almost like I need to move to China if I want to stay on the cutting edge of battery technology
I need to open up a Lithium Battery Factory here...
</end rant>

7) The details of the settlement were sealed (why?) - it is generally believed that the amount of the settlement was $30M and it prohibited Panasonic (or anyone else) from selling a battery (not a cell) larger than 10Ah.

I'm glad my 12AH NiMH Batteries only put out about 10AH now, keeps me legal

 

[jdh2550]

I'm glad my 12AH NiMH Batteries only put out about 10AH now, keeps me legal

Hey, now I said the agreement was sealed didn't I? BTW, Do you know the specs of the highest Ah pack you can buy "off the shelf"? I might after all be full of sh*t... (I don't think I am!)

I need to open up a Lithium Battery Factory here...

YES, DO IT NOW!!!! I'll invest (does $5 help you out?) Of course you'll be competing against A123 and Altairnano. And if you go public your shareholders will demand you get the big bucks that an exclusive deal with a vehicle manufacturer will get you.

So, aside from most of the production coming from China and the like - they're the only folks that will sell to us DIY'ers. Our own domestic companies don't think we're worth supporting :x

 

[knightmb]

I'm glad my 12AH NiMH Batteries only put out about 10AH now, keeps me legal

Hey, now I said the agreement was sealed didn't I? BTW, Do you know the specs of the highest Ah pack you can buy "off the shelf"? I might after all be full of sh*t... (I don't think I am!)

Well, if by "off the shelf" you mean online, then batteryspace and a few other places sell 13AH NiMH cells and 13AH packs (which would be a battery technically) But I don't think it's a big solid 13AH battery like a big SLA battery, so I imagine they consider packs to not be the same as a battery. All of the 13AH cells come from China, or most of them that I've read about.

I need to open up a Lithium Battery Factory here...

YES, DO IT NOW!!!! I'll invest (does $5 help you out?) Of course you'll be competing against A123 and Altairnano. And if you go public your shareholders will demand you get the big bucks that an exclusive deal with a vehicle manufacturer will get you.

So, aside from most of the production coming from China and the like - they're the only folks that will sell to us DIY'ers. Our own domestic companies don't think we're worth supporting :x

Keep the $5.00, I need cheap labor to help me make these things :lol: So donated time would be even more valuable :wink:

 

[CGameProgrammer]

I bought a 24V 18Ah NiMH pack from ebikes.ca. I believe it's just 20 18Ah cells in series.

 

[TylerDurden]

I need to open up a Lithium Battery Factory here...

Perhaps consider integrating... if there are embargos on big packs for BEVs, you might make big packs outta imported small ones for domestic use.

 

[oatnet]

Wow, nice summary, I enjoyed that, thanks!

 

[Lessss]

Cheap labour is plentiful in the US, just need to open that factory in the areas of the country that everyone else has abandoned. Of course you'll also have to deploy all the other infrastructure as well, like roads, power etc..

 

[NickF23]

A few points to add.

Making a large array out of small AH nimh cells is not easy as they are hard to charge in parallel. This isn't true of lithium or lead. Even so its generally good practice to use a single cell of the correct AH capacity for the sake of simplicity of the BMS and reliability. I think Tesla went for the multicell option only because of volume price for small cells.

The ovonics restriction on large capacity nimh only applied to the US for automotive use. You can find larger capacity cells around the world though they're not mass produced. Sadly its automotive grade batteries that would make best use for our bikes/scoots. Consumer grade nimh have lower cycle life's. The original ovonic packs were rated for 2000 80% dod cycles I think the sanyo cells used in the vectrix have a similar or better life.

The next gen nimh look really good with higher energy densities and much lower self discharge. But I've not seen them for sale anywhere yet.

I've heard that patents expire in 2012, so hopefully they'll be much more available soon.

 

[BiGH]

you can still make larger cells out of smaller cells

No you can't. You can make larger batteries out of a collection of small cells. But that's not the same as making a larger cell. Those smaller cells combined as one battery will most likely not perform as well as a single larger cell. It's all to do with the Peukert effect - see that other thread from whence this came.

interesting i didn't know that! u learn something every night

but then along came JPEG which to a large extent made gif obsolete

Can't say I agree with that - they're fundamentally different tools. One is lossy for photographic style images. One is lossless for "icon" style images. Try and use one for the other and you'll generally get crappy results. I do agree that the LZW patent owner (was it Unisys?) was wrong headed - however, a graphics compression algorithm is inconsequential compared to this stuff - I doubt anyone would go to war to secure access to a particular codec....

yes they are fundamentally different techniques - but my point is this. GIF used to be the exchange format for PICTURES AS the majority of users at that time only had VGA monitors - so gif was used for picutres. Jpeg wasn't popular, as it was slower to decode. this changed very quickly partially due to the abilaity to have more colours 15bit, 16bit and 24bit colour depths. THEN gif was used mainly for small icon like images and also animated graphics. If you don't like my jpeg/gif analogy, then maybe consider PNG in place of jpg.

 

[Ypedal]

http://www.nilar.com/index.php?pageID=26&languageID=1

 

[Toorbough ULL-Zeveigh]

Here's my understanding: LiFe is better than NiMH (better = significantly greater energy density and somewhat better discharge characteristics)

Just to nitpick on a few points.
LiFe has slightly better energy density NiMH(basically on par in theory) & kicks NiMH butt all over the landscape in power density & discharge characteristics. Not the other way round.
Also ECD Ovonics is totally pwned by Chevron so to say Cobasys is a joint venture beween these two companies is purely a bookeeping matter & no doubt to give the false impression that they are somehow separate entities.
Chevron installed <A HREF="http://www.thecarconnection.com/Auto_News/Green_Car_News/Bob_Stempel_on_the_Hydrogen_Prius.S196.A11952.html">Bob Stempel</A> former GM chairman that killed the electric car to the head of ECD.

As for as the price hike in NiMH, if NiCd can be had for cheap, then it can't be due to high nickel prices because both have the same amount of nickel in them.
Right now locally here were being flooded with dirt cheap stainless steel products from China, so the high price of nickel argument don't hold water.
The high cost on NiMH simply put is contrived by someone that holds the monopoly on the technology.





Re: large format cells, the 13Ah F cells that Batteryspace & others sell are 5-year old or more technology.
Saft has 15AH F size & the aforementioned Nexcell 18Ah DD size are the largest capacity NiMH that are available to the public.
My WAG as to how they get away with producing cells larger than 10Ah is that Saft was one of the first liscencees long b4 Chevron showed up & have heard that the older agreements had the least restriction placed upon them.
Nexcell double D strikes me that they found a loophole in the liscence, that they're technically living up to the agreement because it's only two 9Ah D-size joined together, wink-wink.
But that's what reveals the stagnation in large cell NiMH development over the past 5 years.
The energy density is never any higher than 10Ah in a D-size.

By taking the advances in NiMH energy density that we're seeing right now in the smaller form factors like subC & A-size & apply them to the larger form factors, we could/should have 15Ah stuffed into a D-can & 20Ah F-cells.
It's conceivable we may one day see the ridiculous situation of a NiMH subC with the same 10Ah capacity as D's, at which point the development will be mandated to come to a halt.

I'm sure a lot of people are gonna say, 'come ON! There's no way NiMH can improve much further'.
All's it will take to pack in even higher energy & power density into a NiMH cell is to do a nano-tech treatement on the plates, the same thing A123 has done for LiFe.
Chevron at the begining of this year bought into A123 so they have access to the technology, not that it's something that even any well equipped (chinese) University lab couldn't readily duplicate.

However I think the biggest potential for NiMH that makes sense why Chevron seems to have little interest in further developing dry cells is from the first time I read of how a NiMH cell operates it becomes plain to see that by piping in an external hydride storage tank to a regular NiMH you would create a cheap & dirty flow-cell.
There's more to it than that but several of the Ovshinsky patents cover that & are also now exclusively pwned by Chevron.

A flow-cell doesn't have the expense & rarity of platinum required by a fuel-cell or the limitation on range of a regular battery since it has a tank that can be refuelled.
That's the biggest consideration Chevron has on any replacement technology for oil.
They can't go & have people plugging in just anywhere to recharge/refuel.
Suppling fuel is what they know, & they need to replace the oil with something to keep their investment in the infrastructure of pipelines & gas stations occupied.

If a NiMH flow-cell were to become the standard battery in every vehicle, they would have exclusive patent on the goose that lays golden eggs.
Even when the patent runs out in 2012, they will have an insurmountable lead on the technology & once again be installed as the energy kingpin, all our money flowing yet again inexorably into their pocket.
That's a big if & whether it's a flow-cell or fuel-cell, wheter it comes to pass or not, that's my read between the lines as to their intent & direction.
Oh, yeah, add in the privatization of the water supply, with Chevron or some such enitity owning it all.
Can't have people creating their own fuel now, can we.

 

[TylerDurden]

Can't have people creating their own fuel now, can we.

Hence the ethanol boom, easy to restrict. Bio-diesel by contrast, can be made and used almost anywhere by anybody.

:?

 

[jdh2550]

Toorbough ULL-Zeveigh - WOW! Thanks for your detailed post. I learned much about both NiMH and the Chevron/ECD Ovonics relationship.

Some questions for you:
(1) Where's a good source for me to read up on more of what you've written about? (I thought I was fairly well up to speed on it - but I see that I basically know nothing!)
(2) It sounds like you're saying that NiMH has the potential for becoming a high range battery (through something called a "flow-battery". And that if that happens then Chevron will control it. Do you know if progress is being made on "NiMH flow-batteries"? (that's all in quotes 'coz I know nuthink about flow batteries - I guess it's something about flowing new electrolyte into the system?)
(3) Do you concur that I basically have the story right - Chevron appears to have a strangle hold on NiMH for large scale EV use because it would compete against their oil business?
(4) and finally... what's the story behind your screen name? (just curious and would like to know how to shorten it - I'm a lazy typist! )

On the one hand it's great that NiMH technology will be able to compete with LiFe. On the other it still sucks that Chevron is holding the patent.


YPedal - that looks like interesting technology - and also note that their only product is 9Ah (below my believed 10Ah limit).[/i]

 

[safe]

Reality Check

There's no massive conspiracy going on with nickel prices. This summer there was a speculative boom in the stock markets and that boosted the price up really high, but that "bubble" popped and prices are going back to where they should be. This sort of stuff just happens sometimes. There were some people that owned the nickel supplies and they did some "Enron style" resource extraction tactics (in other words a group of resource owners can make a fake shortage happen) that helped to feed the "bubble" but it didn't last. (they aren't supposed to last forever... the "insiders" make their money and the fools chasing the rise lose everything)

Some of the other metals had similiar "bubbles"...

Anyway...

Nickel will come back down to a more normal price in six months or so. Nickel is being used more because of China which is sucking all the raw materials out of the worldwide market. So the price will come down, but the overall resource market is slowly going up because of demand.

Now someone can invent all kinds of fantastic conspiracies of why these things are going on, but in reality it's as I've said... smart people playing short term tricks. There is no "massive conspiracy", but there are individuals that "game the system" as the saying goes.

Watch the movie "Wall Street" or "Boiler Room" and you get the idea...

 

[xyster]

Reality Check


Anyway...

Nickel will come back down to a more normal price in six months or so. Nickel is being used more because of China which is sucking all the raw materials out of the worldwide market. So the price will come down, but the overall resource market is slowly going up because of demand.

Nickel is a fairly scarce metal now in much greater demand due to the explosion in demand for steel for construction in countries such as China and India. The demand for steel shows no signs of abating anytime in the near future. Nickel prices will not "come back down to a more normal price in six months or so". Furthermore, the demand for NiMH batteries is slowing as lithium batteries become the standard for the powertool and nascent EV market. Production of NiMH batteries will ramp-down accordingly. The price for NiMH batteries will not decrease in 6 months, or six years. Bet you....a nickel.

 

[Lessss]

Sounds like someone needs to tap David E Kelly on the shoulder and say, hey, heres another lawsuit ideal for Boston Legal.

 

[safe]

The price for NiMH batteries will not decrease in 6 months, or six years. Bet you....a nickel.

The price for raw nickel has already come down. There is a definite increase in demand because of China and India, but whenever there is a temporary spike in prices that goes straight up and then straight down that means that market mania was the cause, not the underlying demand. There was apparently a group of owners of the nickel market that were holding back their supplies in order to drive up the price. Once the price got high enough then the "embargo" falls apart as all the owners want to cash in. The "bubble" has already popped.

However, we might have seen a historical low in NiMH prices about a year ago that we never see again. Don't forget that inflation is also creeping along too, so we have to expect everything to go up and for it to get worse in the coming years because we are entering an inflationary cycle. So in "fixed terms" the prices will not likely ever reach the 2006 levels again, but they will stay flat or go down in the near term.

There's nothing pushing the price up right now... the price of nickel is back down again...

Lithium with look better and better as production increases and the price comes down, so the overall argument for switching to Lithium is sound because it's price picture is looking better.

It's probably NOT a good thing that we are putting valuable metals like Nickel into batteries anyway. Lithium, Iron and Phosphorus are plentiful as far as I know, so the issue of rare metals doesn't apply. Unless Lithium is scarce... not sure about that...

 

[safe]

Ouch!

THE SUPPLY OF lithium, which is a key ingredient in lap-top batteries, could dry up if it is seen as a alternative fuel for cars, a key boffin has warned. Lithium batteries are being touted as a way forward for electric cars, but according to William Tahil, director of research for Meridian International Research this could result in the world's lithium supply drying up really fast.

In his newly released white paper entitled, "The Trouble with Lithium", he points out that the vast majority of world's supply of lithium carbonate, is only found in China, Chile, Argentina, and Bolivia. He estimates total world lithium metal reserves at just 6,200,000 metric tons.

In chat with EV World, Tahil said that while lithium salts production could double in the next few years, the industry can't produce enough lithium to build the hundreds of millions of large-format batteries needed to power the electric cars and plug-in hybrids of the future.

He said the motor industry should have another look at sodium nickel chloride and zinc-air, both of which offer comparable or greater energy density than lithium without the attendant safety or resource depletion issues. This is because there is a lot more Zinc in the ground than lithium. Laptops and handhelds will make short shrift of the available Lithium anyhow

http://www.theinquirer.net/en/inquirer/news/2007/01/30/lithium-supply-will-dry-up-boffin-warns

 

[safe]

The Future Politics of Lithium?

http://www.evworld.com/article.cfm?storyid=1182

...it turns out that the vast majority of the world's easily extractable lithium metals, in the form of lithium carbonate, is found in only two places on the planet: the Altiplano region that encompasses Chile (the world's largest producer), Argentina and Bolivia. A second similarly remote resource is being developed in Tibet.

 

[safe]

More Info

http://www.autobloggreen.com/2007/01/30/beyond-peak-oil-are-we-facing-peak-lithium/

In a story in the Toronto Star, William Tahil, research director with Meridian International Research asserts that there isn't enough lithium available to mine to support the world's 900 million vehicles. Evidently most of the known supplies of lithium are in South America, in Argentina, Chile and Bolivia, potentially making them the new OPEC. Bolivia alone may have fifty percent of the world's metal lithium reserves. Production of 60 million PHEVs with smaller lithium batteries than would be needed for a full EV would require 420,000 tonnes of lithium every year, which is six times the current production level. So it looks like any potential savings from mass producing lithium batteries, could easily get negated and then some just by increasing demand driving up raw material costs.

Tahil proposes that battery research should be more focused on technology that uses more common metals like nickel and zinc. The article mentions sodium nickel chloride (Zebra) batteries and zinc air batteries. The Zebra batteries apparently tolerate cold and hot temperatures well, something lithium batteries generally don't. It looks like we need to start looking past lithium even before it gets established.


YIKES!!!

 

[safe]

My own comments...

Nickel is more rare than Iron, but it's not as rare as Lithium... so I'm starting to think that the whole idea of Lithium as the future is going to be even more politically dangerous than oil. Imagine having only a few places in the world where all the Lithium comes from? Imagine the money and power that will funnel into those places? Imagine the dictatorships that will naturally develop and the eventual warfare that will follow...