The true sine-wave (vectored) controller & electronics set

[Miles]

23: http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=ru&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Felectrotransport.ru%2Fussr%2Findex.php%2Ftopic%2C12611.396.html&act=url

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25: http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=ru&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Felectrotransport.ru%2Fussr%2Findex.php%2Ftopic%2C12611.432.html&act=url

26: http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=ru&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Felectrotransport.ru%2Fussr%2Findex.php%2Ftopic%2C12611.450.html&act=url

27: http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=ru&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Felectrotransport.ru%2Fussr%2Findex.php%2Ftopic%2C12611.468.html&act=url

 

[ZOMGVTEK]

Will a higher power model be offered? Something like 15-20kW? Possibly 150V+ models?

12kW peak sounds a bit low to me. If you're designing the thing, might as well make one capable of burning most motors.

 

[andreym]

Will a higher power model be offered? Something like 15-20kW? Possibly 150V+ models?

12kW peak sounds a bit low to me. If you're designing the thing, might as well make one capable of burning most motors.

MAX-E was successfully tested at 80v180a for everyday use. Probably it will handle even more, we just have not tried that yet.
the controller is rated at max 12kw, but who told you that it is limited to 12kw ?
you know 18fet infineon initially was "rated" to only 65amps, but look around! Many people use it at 100-120amps battery current on daily basis...
Unfortunately we do not have a motor that could handle more than 15kw for a long time to test the controller at even higher current yet.
However you should remember that we cannot guarantee that every controller will work at 200amps continuos battery current so if you are within specks, you will be under warranty.

and no, 150v will not help you to make any controller more powerful than with 100v limit. Look at 150v fet`s datasheet and you`ll see that it will be twice iR compared to 100v ones...
150v version is possible to make(and we will probably offer one later), but do not expect it to be more powerful than current MAX-E.

 

[mdd0127]

Your controller is pretty much the only thing left that's keeping me excited about ebikes. It's great to hear that the project is moving forward!

Any chance you'd consider sponsoring me with a controller if I get my ultimate bike together in time to run the Baja 1000 next year? Skill, determination, and ideas, I have.....money however is a different story. :wink:

Either way, as soon as you have a controller available, I will have a Castle Creations HV160 up for sale!

 

[xenodius]

So if I come back here in 1-3 years, do you still expect to be producing the Max-E? I'm also interested if anyone has specific efficiency comparisons between typical PWM vs. sine.

I'm a major lurker but I've planned through over a lot of different designs, and modeled many in Solidworks... And this controller would make a significant difference in all plans. I want to replace my car for any in-city purposes. I'm probably going to be building a tilting recumbent trike a'la Jetrike.com, which will be a bit of a process. Hopefully the Jetrike Mk3 free-to-caster design will be done by the time I can start. Either way it's going to need some kW.

 

[wojtek]

wow you really drive brave! there are thousands of youtube videos with crashes in Russia , after watching them i would never drive there even with a Hummer!

It seems you have good lights and brakes but please be careful Have you used regen braking in this video?

Great to see the controller is being produced though, good luck with final stage!

 

[gensem]

Will a higher power model be offered? Something like 15-20kW? Possibly 150V+ models?

12kW peak sounds a bit low to me. If you're designing the thing, might as well make one capable of burning most motors.

MAX-E was successfully tested at 80v180a for everyday use. Probably it will handle even more, we just have not tried that yet.
the controller is rated at max 12kw, but who told you that it is limited to 12kw ?
you know 18fet infineon initially was "rated" to only 65amps, but look around! Many people use it at 100-120amps battery current on daily basis...
Unfortunately we do not have a motor that could handle more than 15kw for a long time to test the controller at even higher current yet.
However you should remember that we cannot guarantee that every controller will work at 200amps continuos battery current so if you are within specks, you will be under warranty.

and no, 150v will not help you to make any controller more powerful than with 100v limit. Look at 150v fet`s datasheet and you`ll see that it will be twice iR compared to 100v ones...
150v version is possible to make(and we will probably offer one later), but do not expect it to be more powerful than current MAX-E.

Eargly waiting!

 

[gensem]

Also andreym, do think it would be hard to make a version for 6 phase motors? Like the ones JohninCR is using with lots of power?

Regards

 

[xenodius]

gensem, I think that your best bet would be to use the 2x Mini-E set that andreym referenced offering in the future... Unless I'm imagining that statement. But I believe he mentioned a dual-mini-E controller set run on a single display/throttle; you should be able to configure them to work properly, I think.

 

[gensem]

gensem, I think that your best bet would be to use the 2x Mini-E set that andreym referenced offering in the future... Unless I'm imagining that statement. But I believe he mentioned a dual-mini-E controller set run on a single display/throttle; you should be able to configure them to work properly, I think.

You are probably right...

 

[Miles]

27 http://translate.google.com/translate?sl=ru&tl=en&js=n&prev=_t&hl=en&ie=UTF-8&layout=2&eotf=1&u=http%3A%2F%2Felectrotransport.ru%2Fussr%2Findex.php%2Ftopic%2C12611.468.html&act=url

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[Miles]

the kangaroo rides.

There's one tovarisch named Hyena ;-D declare it in the signature 1.21 GW. So I thought, how many more undocumented features of our controller!

LOL!

 

[full-throttle]

There's one tovarisch named Hyena ;-D

I was under the impression they don't use the t-word anymore

 

[xenodius]

I read on the translated page there will be an implemented feature letting you specify a desired range and have the controller automatically limit power/speed to get the maximum efficiency out of your motor... and frankly, that's just cool. I like the sounds of this controller more and more.

Looks like the new due date is January =)

 

[Hyena]

There's one tovarisch named Hyena ;-D

I was under the impression they don't use the t-word anymore

err, my Russian is a little rusty - is that a good thing or a bad thing ?
I do hope it's not Russian for cockhead or something like that :lol:

 

[full-throttle]

I do hope it's not Russian for cockhead or something like that :lol:

lol No, it's not offensive. It means comrade, but since the collapse the adressing is Sir. Confusing.. that's all

 

[GITech]

Wow!!!

Will this work "perfect" with the Motenergy / Mars ME-0907 Motor?

Actually, I'm surprised no one has asked this yet!

Thanks,
Jay

 

[GITech]

Ok, I just purchased the HEINZMANN PMS 120 used by Brammo for the Enertia and KTM for the Freeride. Details about (all of) these motors can be found here (PDF download): http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=ed%20disc%20motors&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CDEQFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.heinzmann.com%2Fen%2Fcomponent%2Fdocman%2Fdoc_download%2F1325-product-catalogue-disc-motors&ei=6HTLUPyDJ4iQ9QSLrYHQCw&usg=AFQjCNE93iPs0pFxIm32gddpiDHDR4wylg&bvm=bv.1355325884,d.dmQ

My next project will be a Suzuki RM125 conversion using this motor, shhhh...

I can get these motors for cheap!

I'd say they are worth $1000+ so hopefully we'll see more of them around here.

Anyway, why are we letting this thread die off? This controller is what we've been NEEDING for years now. Lets try to keep it alive by showing interest. Maybe we'll get more attention from the AOP if this thread is active and maybe he will visit and share info more regularly. I wonder if he takes well to constant begging?!

I've read the thread and I'm not sure if I'm clear on this but...can this controller do hall-effect and/or Sin/Cos?

 

[parabellum]

I am also waiting for this (Max) controller beeng available to buy, but AOP is more active on his page and I can not register there for some reason.

 

[docnjoj]

I do hope it's not Russian for cockhead or something like that :lol:

lol No, it's not offensive. It means comrade, but since the collapse the adressing is Sir. Confusing.. that's all

I think "Gaspadeen" which meant citizen is not used anymore either. "Tovarisch" I thought could mean comrade or friend.
otherDoc

 

[xenodius]

GITech, I know that feel! I've actually been checking this page almost weekly to see if there've been any updates. As soon as this controller comes out I'm ALL OVER it! Given the complex design considerations, I'm beginning to look at building the simpler Jetrike MkII with modifications including suspension. I have to build that first, but as soon as I get it done, well... I won't be looking for a car, that's for sure. I guess I should be voicing my interest more, though... Here I am, voicing!! =)

 

[GITech]

GITech, I know that feel! I've actually been checking this page almost weekly to see if there've been any updates. As soon as this controller comes out I'm ALL OVER it! Given the complex design considerations, I'm beginning to look at building the simpler Jetrike MkII with modifications including suspension. I have to build that first, but as soon as I get it done, well... I won't be looking for a car, that's for sure. I guess I should be voicing my interest more, though... Here I am, voicing!! =)

Thanks for voicing your interest!

So, no one is cares about a German made brushless axial flux motor with dual stators and dual magnets? Weird! ES is really becoming mysterious to me...

Oh, and I do believe ~$700 for the max is still a little steep.

 

[Kingfish]

So, no one is cares about a German made brushless axial flux motor with dual stators and dual magnets? Weird! ES is really becoming mysterious to me...

Applications are slightly limited. Dual Stators are moderately efficient. Given the amount of real estate, I’d want to gang up more stators and use a smaller sized for more batteries.

At 125cc ICE replacement I’m figuring you will want 10-12kW from the motor, yes? That’s just starting to become interesting in my book. Looks like a good match.

Happy for you, KF

 

[GITech]

Applications are slightly limited. Dual Stators are moderately efficient. Given the amount of real estate, I’d want to gang up more stators and use a smaller sized for more batteries.

At 125cc ICE replacement I’m figuring you will want 10-12kW from the motor, yes? That’s just starting to become interesting in my book. Looks like a good match.

Happy for you, KF

Thanks KF,

Yep, it's 7.5kw nominal continuous with air cooling. 13kw rated "max" but we know what that means...for how long? I'm sure it can handle more for a short time but I'm not going that high. 9-10kw is good enough for me as I will have it geared for ~35-40mph top speed. I have a dirt (black sand/pavement aggregate) track that I've been working on and the top speed I can go on this track even on the high bank turns is ~25-30mph and 20mph for most of the track.

What do you mean by "Applications are slightly limited. Dual Stators are moderately efficient. Given the amount of real estate, I’d want to gang up more stators and use a smaller sized for more batteries." ? Focusing on "Dual Stators are moderately efficient"

Compared to the ME0907 with one stator and "one magnet" that claims >90% efficiency (I know it's more like 80-84%)... because of it's design the magnetic pull of the magnets needs to be supported by a thrust bearing to keep the magnets spaced away from the stator. This seams like a shitty idea if you ask me...

The ME0913 is more like this PMS120 with it's dual stators and magnets, but the ME0913 weighs more and is far more expensive and is made in china (have you seen the birds nest of wires in the ME09xx motors?). It is also open case design, where as the PMS120 is sealed and is designed to have the heat removed from the outer case. Much better for the dirt/mud/sand environment. And I'm sure I could add air vent holes or even my own water cooling if needed to the PMS120 (but I don't think it will).

So for your "app" and real estate you would want something more like the ME0913 due to the smaller dia? The PMS120 motor is mostly only (EDIT: 113mm) wide and you could build very close to it if you run good forced air or liquid cooling.

Just chatting, later,
Jay

Edit: here's my track so far. It's 1385ft long. Can/will be bigger!

 

[Kingfish]

Applications are slightly limited. Dual Stators are moderately efficient. Given the amount of real estate, I’d want to gang up more stators and use a smaller sized for more batteries.

GITech:
My statement is relative to the AF studies I conducted for a good length of time. Dual Stator is the minimum configuration for payback on the engineering effort and the first real improvement on efficiency, however you can keep stacking stators and squeak out even more performance, each improving ever so less than the previous one as we approach Infinity. A rough example:

• Rotor + Stator + Rotor = single stator system with X% of efficiency.
• Add one more Rotor/Stator pair and we can increase the performance ~95% (can’t be 100% cos of drag and electrical loss). Efficiency increased a good chunk over a single stator, but less than 50%.
• Add one more Rotor/Stator pair and we improve performance slightly less than 3X of the single stator, and increase efficiency by less than 1/3.
• Each additional rotor/stator paring increases performance, but with diminishing returns. Therefore the single stator has the advantage of the least loss, but is also the weakest configuration based upon the material and engineering cost. Therefore a dual stator is the minimum configuration for payback on investment, but it is also touching the surface of total capability. In my studies I determined that 4 to 6 rotor/stator pairs created very good power density in a compact form - such as for a DD motor. In theory, one could keep adding rotor/stators up to 10 or more to create a high-revolution motor with very high torque - say for example to use on a drag bike.

In light of the research, the Dual-Stator AF motor has limited application. It’s fine for lightweight needs and should work well within the scope of operation. For myself, I can’t find a good fitting solution off-the-shelf and have resigned myself to building my own when the opportunity presents itself.

More information about the calculus I used can be found on this thread: Doing the Math.

Unfortunately my notes contained within the thread suffer from character corruption due to flunky db transfer, so the formulas are difficult to read, however the references are pointed out several times and not hard to retrace if one was diligently driven. Anyways – I enjoyed doing the study. Now I am working on other aspects to bring the dream to fruition, one rainy day at a time.

May your wheels of progress spin with bi-polar attraction, KF