The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

[NeilP]

I don't know if it is 'correct' or not, but what I do, especially with spoke washers is to 'seat' the heads (and shape the washers) with a brass punch and a hammer.

Once wheel is laced,go around with leather welding gloves, grasping and squeezing spoke pairs, then lay wheel on its side. Then use 6 inch x 3/8th brass bar and small hammer. Go around each nipple head and hit into rim with brass punch and hammer.

As you ride the bike, if you don't do this, the spokes eventually seat themselves, and so the spokes 'appear' to stretch and slacken.

 

[TheBeastie]

Yeah great thread to OP/SM. Also maybe you should post a link about the Xiongda to remind people of what a special hub motor it is.
I replaced all my 12g spokes to 13g and haven't had a broken spoke since. When on 12g I would get a broken spoke every second ride I would say. I am on a 2 cross setup.

I guess one thing I am interesting in hereing about is does anyone have thoughts on how to keep the spokes in place, mine loosen frequently.

 

[friendly1uk]

Yeah great thread to OP/SM. Also maybe you should post a link about the Xiongda to remind people of what a special hub motor it is.
I replaced all my 12g spokes to 13g and haven't had a broken spoke since. When on 12g I would get a broken spoke every second ride I would say. I am on a 2 cross setup.

I guess one thing I am interesting in hereing about is does anyone have thoughts on how to keep the spokes in place, mine loosen frequently.

If your bike can reach 30 as your signature suggests, then 2 cross is your problem

 

[NeilP]

Are you greasing thread and nipple on assembly?
If not, weirdly, that may be the issue.
If greased it is easier to get good tension on the spokes . If they are not tensioned enough, it makes it easy for them to slacken off
Why would two cross be a problem at 30mph? Don't see the connection.

I happily have been doing 35-40 for over 14000 miles on single cross.

 

[amberwolf]

YI guess one thing I am interesting in hereing about is does anyone have thoughts on how to keep the spokes in place, mine loosen frequently.

insuffiicient tension

look at the linseed oil post(s) in this thread, and the posts about tensioning

 

[friendly1uk]

Are you greasing thread and nipple on assembly?
Why would two cross be a problem at 30mph? Don't see the connection.

Only mini motors are suitable for 2x and they won't do 30mph.

They are 13g nipples in 12g holes. Perhaps sat at an angle beyond the nipples seat design. Add some lube and what little binding you have could be gone.

This is off to a bad start. Doing half the job properly but not the other half, is never going to come good. The excessive spoke angle ensures there is movement at the incorrect seat.

 

[NeilP]

Looking at that picture of the Xiongda, I'd say it was a mini motor, it is not particularly big,that is for sure.

As regards the smaller nipples in the old holes, if anything that will help reduce the spoke angle,as the nipple can now move more in the hole. I know, because that is exactly what I have down on my last build. I have, until the last build, been using 12 gauge spokes,but the last build I used 13/14 gauge butted spokes..so smaller diameter nipples. This has helped greatly in reducing the bend in the spoke (as it exits the nipple), as the nipple can sit at an angle in the rim, more in line with the spoke,

Polyaxnipples will help even further,as the nipples have a convex face at the rim hole, allowing more pivoting.

I'd say the problem is more down to lack of tension

 

[Punx0r]

I think it was Chalo who said that no hub motor needed more than 1-cross.

 

[spinningmagnets]

The Xiongda definitely is a small motor. If it didn't have that second gear built in, it would definitely fit in right next to any one of the common 350W tiny geared hubs. I only bought a front Xiongda and used a 2-cross because it was possible, and...nobody else had tried that yet. It looks like it will work OK, but...if I had to do it over again, and if I knew I already liked the Xiongda...I would get a rear hub and use 13/14 butted stainless Sapim spokes with Polyax nipples in a one-cross pattern. The Alexrims.com DM24 is good for a RibMo 26 X 2.0 inch tire, too small for a Cyclops 2.4 or a Hookworm 2.5

I knew I would not be happy with only 750W, even when it does have a second gear...it was always just a fun experiment from the beginning, to post data.

 

[cal3thousand]

I put a conhismotor mini DD hub in a 2 cross pattern. The wheel build is very strong being a 29er with enough radius to reduce the angles. That radius is a bane to the the motor, but that's another matter. :?

 

[ebikedelight]

Theres only 1 bike shop in my area, about 80 minutes away, that will lace up a ehub motor. They charged me $130 just to do it , and I supplied the nipples/ spokes and rim tape . I really need to learn the whole process for measuring and lacing and truing up a ehub motor on a fat bike rim with a 1 cross pattern , but I have yet to find a utube video that outlines the whole process in simple terms for a newbie.

 

[Chalo]

Theres only 1 bike shop in my area, about 80 minutes away, that will lace up a ehub motor. They charged me $130 just to do it , and I supplied the nipples/ spokes and rim tape . I really need to learn the whole process for measuring and lacing and truing up a ehub motor on a fat bike rim with a 1 cross pattern , but I have yet to find a utube video that outlines the whole process in simple terms for a newbie.

Truing and tensioning a wheel is subtle enough that I continue to learn it after more than 25 years of doing it. But $130 to build a wheel for you is an insult. I'll venture that their pricing reflects the fact that they are not quite competent wheelbuilders and thus are intimidated by things outside their comfort zone. I build e-bike wheels for the same $40 that my shop charges for a normal wheel build, even though it's more of a hassle than a regular wheel.

You can do the job yourself. Consult http://leonard.io/edd for spoke lengths, buy spokes from http://danscomp.com, and read Sheldon Brown's wheelbuilding tutorial for instructions. If you want to understand it even better, check out a copy of Jobst Brandt's The Bicycle Wheel from your local library and read it.

 

[Cowardlyduck]

So over on my commuter build thread I mentioned I need to build a new front 16" wheel.
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=57751&start=100#p1013450

So I've found and ordered a hub:
http://www.wiggle.com.au/shimano-105-5800-front-hub/

And I've also ordered a new 16" rim:
http://www.moruyabicycles.com.au/contents/en-uk/p8490_Alex_VP18_Rim_16__(305)_28h_Black.html

I'm in the process of putting through an order for spokes, but wanted to double check I'm getting the right length (and number) of spokes.

My current wheel is a radially laced 16 spoke rim on a 32h hub with every second hole of the hub used.
The new setup will also be radially laced on a 32h hub, but the rim is 28h. I was thinking of building it with 28 spokes (skipping 4 evenly spaced holes on the hub) to make it strong, and not mess with the rims design intentions, but am wondering if this is necessary and whether I should just do a 16 spoke wheel again skipping 12 spokes out of the rim. Would this weaken the rim too much?

Also, I've done a bunch of spoke calculations on pretty much all the various spoke calculators online and have come to the figure of 136mm radial spoke length. I'm in the process of putting through an order for 28 14g Sapim spokes at this length, but am after a sanity check if anyone wants to verify.

Any advice appreciated.

Cheers

 

[NeilP]

Another edit....sorry if this post is difficult to read...it is the result of multiple edits over an hour or two.


STOP...DONT ORDER THOSE SPOKES

Not if you plan to use the 'missing just 4 holes' idea.

OK< EDIT...NUMBER 23 ... Carry on, As you were soldier.

The difference between the spoke lengths, now calculated, are so small , for the non - radial "radial" pattern you are talking about , as to be inconsequential

but here they are of completeness


I have now worked out spoke lengths for you ..assuming the figures I have are these same as yours


Edit : is this it




I found the ERD of the Rim 305mm,

That idea of 28 rim with 32 hub is going to give 4 different spoke angles so you will need 4 different spoke lengths. It wont be a true radial, as the angular spacing is just wrong.

I have done similar, 28 hole rim to 36 hole hub

The graphic below is for one side, you would 'rotate' the pattern 90 degree on the other side.


But if you are going to the hassle of buying new parts, I'd buy matching parts to start with..so a 32 and 32 or 28 and 28 . Tough if you have the rim and hub on order...continue....



See Chalo's post here
http://www.rideyourbike.com/36hub24rim.shtml

And these
http://sheldonbrown.com/rinard/36-24.htm

http://www.sheldonbrown.com/mismatch/

Also, tips here in my post here, where I waffle on to myself (rather like this post) till I get to understand what this is all about, to get to grips with non decimal cross patterns / 'non whole number ' cross patterns

This post is mainly me taking to myself...but it helped me get my head around the concept and how to calculate the spoke angles from scratch



So back to your 28 hole rim, with 32 hole hub.

Spoke angles would be, as to be used in the calculations in the previous links:
0 deg
3.2 deg
6.4 deg
9.6 deg

Which is ( if Chalo can check)
0 cross
0.125 cross
0.25 cross
0.375 cross

So this gives :
136.56mm
135.59mm
136.69mm
136.86mm



View attachment 1

 

[NeilP]

And for those that want a workshop friendly Casio Programable Calculator based spook length calculator

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=59701

 

[ebikedelight]

Theres only 1 bike shop in my area, about 80 minutes away, that will lace up a ehub motor. They charged me $130 just to do it , and I supplied the nipples/ spokes and rim tape . I really need to learn the whole process for measuring and lacing and truing up a ehub motor on a fat bike rim with a 1 cross pattern , but I have yet to find a utube video that outlines the whole process in simple terms for a newbie.

Truing and tensioning a wheel is subtle enough that I continue to learn it after more than 25 years of doing it. But $130 to build a wheel for you is an insult. I'll venture that their pricing reflects the fact that they are not quite competent wheelbuilders and thus are intimidated by things outside their comfort zone. I build e-bike wheels for the same $40 that my shop charges for a normal wheel build, even though it's more of a hassle than a regular wheel.

You can do the job yourself. Consult http://leonard.io/edd for spoke lengths, buy spokes from http://danscomp.com, and read Sheldon Brown's wheelbuilding tutorial for instructions. If you want to understand it even better, check out a copy of Jobst Brandt's The Bicycle Wheel from your local library and read it.

appreciate the info. since I need to order my spokes , what method do you find is the easiest to use for measuring ERD, ehub dimensions ? Do you have a link or utube video for this procedure. Im gonna try to lace my hub myself....my local bike shop took advantage of me for $130 just to build 1 wheel when I supplied all the parts.

Also , is it easier to build a ehub wheel without any crosses..and if so, is it just as strong for the front or back wheel ?

 

[spinningmagnets]

A one-cross pattern is much better than a radial pattern (if its a possible option). The only reason some builders use a radial is because they badly want a certain hub in a smaller rim diameter.

 

[NeilP]

I'd aways measure the ERD myself and not trust the published dimensions..just in case someone made a typo.

http://www.wheelfanatyk.com/blog/spoke-length/

First make sure you find and mark pairs of spoke holes exactly diagonally across. Easy to get it one hole out.

The ERD dimension is the distance from threaded tip to threaded tip of a diagonal pair of spokes.

Here is how I measure ERD.
Get two old spokes, the longest you can find and cut the bend off so you have two straight spokes threaded at one end, straight at the other.

Measure them exactly and cut/ grind flat to an exact length, like exactly 300mm

Now find two old nipples

Coat the thread / inside of the nipple with superglue/ thread lock.
Screw the nipple on the cut spoke, so the threaded portion sits flush with the top of the nipple.
If you want your spokes to sit slightly inside of the nipple,when the wheel is finished,only screw them that far.

So now you will have two old straight spokes exactly 300mm (or whatever )

So if they were butted up end to end, you'd have 600mm

Push them through the rim, through the opposite spoke holes, and line them up.
Probably be an overlap. Cable tie them together and measure that overlap.
if that overlap is 40mm, then your ERD is 300mm-40mm = 260 mm


Measure in three or four places around the rim to check it for true, and take the average.

That is how I do it. I keep a pair of spoke ready to go , like that and a short cut off length of tape measure fixed to one..so I can just read off then ERD from the tape and the end of the other spoke

 

[ebikedelight]

On my 1000 watt electric rear hub motor, its difficult to get a measurement from center hole to opposite center hole, because the freewheel is in the way on 1 end and the protrusion for the brake disc is in the way on the other end....in other words, I am unable to get a straightline measurement accross the span of the ehub motor, from center spoke hole to opposite center spoke hole .

Heres the hub I own...48 volt- 1000 watt rear mount - 26" ..but im mounting it on a 26" fat bike rim.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/291119531800?_trksid=p2059210.m2749.l2649&var=590270751129&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT


Also, lets say I have a wheel that is already spoked with a non hub motor , but I plan to take it apart, and just use the wheel itself and put in my ehub motor...can I just measure the premade wheel from spoke nipple to other end of spoke nipple, to get a accurate ERD ..then just use my ehub measurement and number of crosses to get my spoke length needed ? Also , is 12 gauge spokes always recomended for these ehubs or does 14 gauge work just as well ? ...this is for a 36 spoke wheel.

 

[NeilP]

A one-cross pattern is much better than a radial pattern (if its a possible option). The only reason some builders use a radial is because they badly want a certain hub in a smaller rim diameter.

Could do a one cross with a single radial spoke, no chance of a straight single cross all around, that I can see.

I have tried to make the diagram to scale...think I got it correct


So for ONE side
A 2 radial spokes of 136.6
B 4 spokes for HALF of the the single cross pattern 19.28 degrees, which is 0.749 cross and 137.7 mm spoke length
C 4 spokes for HALF of the the single cross pattern 28.92 degrees, which is 1.1247 cross and 139.1 mm spoke length
D 4 spokes for the single cross patterns at 35.35 degrees 1.3747 cross and 140.4 mm spoke

note that the BC Cross is not equal spokes, where as the D cross is a pair of equal spokes

Obviously need two sides, so double up the numbers above and rotate the pattern 90 degrees, so Spokes "A" go in the holes (almost) opposite the missed holes





1200 pixel version

 

[NeilP]

its difficult to get a measurement from centre hole to opposite centre hole, because the freewheel is in the way on 1 end and the protrusion for the brake disc is in the way on the other end....in other words, I am unable to get a straightline measurement across the span of the ehub motor, from centre spoke hole to opposite centre spoke hole .

There is always a way. Easier if the motor is out. Measure its width , flange to flange by putting the motor between two blocks of parallel wood, then just measure the distance from Flange edge to the centre of the spoke holes. Then take off twice that distance from the flange diameter.

Also, lets say I have a wheel that is already spoked with a non hub motor , but I plan to take it apart, and just use the wheel itself and put in my ehub motor...can I just measure the pre made wheel from spoke nipple to other end of spoke nipple, to get a accurate ERD

Yes, strip the wheel first and just measure as I said earlier, with two old spokes...or any other method you can devise
http://www.extralite.com/Products/measure%20of%20SED.htm

..then just use my ehub measurement and number of crosses to get my spoke length needed ? Also , is 12 gauge spokes always recommended for these hubs or does 14 gauge work just as well ? ...this is for a 36 spoke wheel.

Yes using an online calculator
!2 gauge, 13 gauge, 14 gauge, 13/14. I don't see it matters that much. Previously I used 12 gauge, now I use butted 13/14. 13 at the hub and 14 at the rim. The smaller 14 gauge nipples can align easier in the holes, so you get less spook bending where they exit the nipple.

 

[ebikedelight]

its difficult to get a measurement from centre hole to opposite centre hole, because the freewheel is in the way on 1 end and the protrusion for the brake disc is in the way on the other end....in other words, I am unable to get a straightline measurement across the span of the ehub motor, from centre spoke hole to opposite centre spoke hole .

There is always a way. Easier if the motor is out. Measure its width , flange to flange by putting the motor between two blocks of parallel wood, then just measure the distance from Flange edge to the centre of the spoke holes. Then take off twice that distance from the flange diameter.

Also, lets say I have a wheel that is already spoked with a non hub motor , but I plan to take it apart, and just use the wheel itself and put in my ehub motor...can I just measure the pre made wheel from spoke nipple to other end of spoke nipple, to get a accurate ERD

Yes, strip the wheel first and just measure as I said earlier, with two old spokes...or any other method you can devise
http://www.extralite.com/Products/measure%20of%20SED.htm

..then just use my ehub measurement and number of crosses to get my spoke length needed ? Also , is 12 gauge spokes always recommended for these hubs or does 14 gauge work just as well ? ...this is for a 36 spoke wheel.

Yes using an online calculator
!2 gauge, 13 gauge, 14 gauge, 13/14. I don't see it matters that much. Previously I used 12 gauge, now I use butted 13/14. 13 at the hub and 14 at the rim. The smaller 14 gauge nipples can align easier in the holes, so you get less spook bending where they exit the nipple.

TY...your idea actually has given me a easier and more accurate way to measure a ehub, without taking it apart.

Use a round wood hole saw the same diameter as the ehub disc brake mount that is in the center of the ehub....drill a hole thru the center of a 16 " long piece of 2x4 . set the ehub into that hole so the disc brake mount on the hub sits in the hole . Now take a marker/ pencil and mark the 2 spoke holes that are exactly opposite of each other, onto the 2x4 board and now take the ehub out of the 2x4 and measure those 2 spoke hole marks center to center.

 

[NeilP]

That is the sort of way, yes.

 

[ebikedelight]

I have searched on utube, for a tutorial on a 1 cross pattern for a ebike hub, and havent found anything....they have 2 cross and 3 cross videos though...

 

[Cowardlyduck]

Thanks for the response Neil...just catching up now...lot of info there.

The difference between the spoke lengths, now calculated, are so small , for the non - radial "radial" pattern you are talking about , as to be inconsequential

but here they are of completeness


I have now worked out spoke lengths for you ..assuming the figures I have are these same as yours

Spoke angles would be, as to be used in the calculations in the previous links:
0 deg
3.2 deg
6.4 deg
9.6 deg

Which is ( if Chalo can check)
0 cross
0.125 cross
0.25 cross
0.375 cross

So this gives :
136.56mm
135.59mm
136.69mm
136.86mm

So if I understand you correctly, ordering the spokes at 136mm should still be ok, but to ensure they can reach in all circumstances I would be better off ordering them at 136.5mm if I can, or maybe at 137mm and file off the end of some if needed.

Glad my original estimations were close enough.

Cheers