The wheel-building spoke-lacing thread, post your tips

[NeilP]

i'd go in the middle rather than 137,
They will all reach OK. We are only talking fractional mm difference, which the cutting machine probably wont get exact anyway

 

[TheBeastie]

My original wheel from bmsb is quite untrue, I did replace all the spokes to skinnier ones which completely cured my constant spoke breaking problem I was having. But after taking my Trek DS 8.4 for free servicing the guy said my back wheel is beyond truing and is completely bent (mind u he refused to true it based on Trek liability issues he claimed).

Anyway I decided to I have enough gusto to take the motor out and relace it into the Treks original back wheel rim so I could have a completely matching look to by wheels on the bike.
Unfortunately after initial inspection the original Trek rim only has 32 spoke holes while my bmsb/Bafang CST has 36 holes for spokes...
Is there any way I can lace it anyhow into the original Trek wheel rim?

 

[NeilP]

there is always a way...how successful is another thing.


I have done some very weird ones, I believe Chalo has some experience in this too.

As for that particular combo...cnat say for sure off the top of my head.


hang on I'll google it.

 

[NeilP]

Shove this in Google. plenty of links:


bicycle wheel lacing 32 hole rim 36 hole hub


A lot of reading gin evolved, it took me a few weeks to fully get my head around it. and every time I come to do another new weird pattern I tend to have to read up again.

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=64324&p=1015190#p1015190

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=53233&p=792415#p792415

http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=59701&p=1031598#p1031598

http://www.terminalvelocity.demon.co.uk/WheelBuild/



http://sheldonbrown.com/mismatch/

http://sheldonbrown.com/mismatch/

http://sheldonbrown.com/wheelbuild.html

http://sheldonbrown.com/special-spoking.html

http://www.bikeforums.net/bicycle-mechanics/622779-lacing-32-hole-rim-36-hole-hub.html

 

[Obiwan007]

Hi to all. I have been helping a family member to get her fat bike converted to electric. It's going good. She chose to do a front wheel motor and we are using a rear style clyte H 3540 motor. The front fat forks are 135mm drop-outs. She chose a Surly rolling Daryl that is 82mm wide. This rim is double drilled with 72 parallel holes (36 on each side) and the holes are 1" apart. I understand the purpose of the widely spaced holes. However, since this is a front wheel and the rear 3540 is a symmetrical hub, it will require no dish. My understanding of how to do this is to use every other hole on alternating sides. Except that the width (1") between the holes is only slightly narrower than the flange width on the hub motor resulting in almost no triangulation. Thus this looks like the perfect candidate for the swap side spoke technique where right sided spokes are laced into left sided rim holes crossing the center line. All of this works out cool on Justin's spoke calculator and it was easy to find the proper spoke lengths to order. I am now getting ready to lace it up and although this is my 6th or so wheel build, it is the first I have done in the swap spoke style. As they say "you don't know what you don't know" so I am looking for any wisdom from the sphere about potential problems to look out for or tips to make a good strong build. Has anyone done this before? Here is a screen shot of the spoke calculator results:

 

[TheBeastie]

Thanks for the links NeilP, I have decided I am going to build 2 cross lacing and just skip the occasional hub hole by going a long the lines of "miss out a spoke hole on the hub at 12, 3, 6 and 9 o'clock. Two skipped holes each for either side of the hub. I was wondering if its better to miss out on the the non cross spokes.

One thing I noticed on a lot of youtube wheel lacing videos is some start with a inbound spoke to the first hole left of the valve hole, while others start with an outbound spoke from the hub to the first hole left of the valve hole, I don't know whos the most correct.

Post here of a guy that was going to do it but then changed his mind http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=38089#p555349

I found this wheel builder page quite easy to read.
http://troubleshooters.com/bicycles/wheelbuilding/index.htm

 

[amberwolf]

@Obiwan: Unless you wanna build some rings to bolt to the spoke flanges, to "extend" them out away from the motor itself by enoguh to create triangulation with that wide a rim, then the cross-side lacing like that is your best option I can think of.

@The Beastie: There's no reason to do ti eitehr way in particular, for where to start inbound vs outbound, AFAIK. Just pick a way and always use it so you can do all your wheels the same.

 

[Chalo]

One thing I noticed on a lot of youtube wheel lacing videos is some start with a inbound spoke to the first hole left of the valve hole, while others start with an outbound spoke from the hub to the first hole left of the valve hole, I don't know whos the most correct.

It doesn't matter. I lace with all outside spokes trailing, but that's only a matter of taste.

 

[NeilP]

I'd second what has been said above, and only add one concern.

That of the 2 cross pattern. Greater than one cross patterns can lead to extreme 'spoke nipple exit from rim' angles. This results in the spokes bending as they exit the stem of the nipple and ultimately snapping at that point.

Only go x2 cross if your motor is small enough diameter. Often difficult so see on a rough build. it is only really apparent once you start tightening.
If the original build was 2 x cross, then going to be fine, but if original was only 1 cross, do some checks first.
Draw a scale diagram in something like Google Sketchup or any handy CAD or graphics program and see what those angles are.

The 'ideal is 90 degrees but that you would only get with a radial spoke pattern. Soon as the spokes start NEEDING TO be leaning over as they exit the rim hole more than about.... errr. ... I forget, .... I'll try and get back to update this when I get time....unless Chalo can offer a suitable figure as to max rim//spoke angle,

maybe Sapim polyax nipples, use them, they allow more nipple 'wobble'

 

[Punx0r]

13 degrees max springs to mind. I think some sources quote 8 degrees, but that's quite conservative.

 

[NeilP]

Just found a data clash between what Sapim themselves say and what someone else says, abotyut eh same Sapim PolyAx nipples


They say 12 with their nipples
http://www.sapim.be/nipples/brass/polyax

But these people say 9 deg
http://www.wheelbuilder.com/sapim-brass-polyax-nipples.html


The earlier pic shows a smallish hub, so maybe OK, but always difficult to know. I have never sued a small motor like that or laced a 2 cross so no real world wheels for me to compare to.

Other will be able to give a definitive answer aI am sure.

 

[Marc S.]

Draw a scale diagram in something like Google Sketchup or any handy CAD or graphics program and see what those angles are.

Way easier to use Justins Spoke Calculator: http://www.ebikes.ca/tools/spoke-calc.html

I laced a Bafang BPM with 3cross in a 26" downhill rim. Despite some quite steep spoke angles, that wheel was fine for more than 5,000km (till the motor gave-up).
I've also build a front wheel set for my trike with 109mm drum brakes in 20" rims, 2mm Sapim Leader spokes and nipples in 3cross pattern. Thanks to the wide, beefy rims, they are very strong wheels that had to suffer quite some abuse for the last 5,000km without any problems as well.

https://etrike.files.wordpress.com/2014/08/ms20765.jpg

If the spokes are tightened well, they shouldn't break.

 

[TheBeastie]

The idea behind 2x was that its going into a 700c rim and its a Bafang CST geared motor so not as large in diameter and also because BMSbattery seem to send out all their wheel builds this way, while they fall apart quickly I think its due to complete lack of effort on the builds I received.

The spokes I used for my bmsb rim were 240mm as recommend by them which seemed to work on their mystery 700c rim but they seem to lack length on the Bontrager TLR rims which technically makes sense because according to http://www.ebikes.ca/tools/spoke-calc.html my spokes should be as long as 244.1mm under the longest x2 config setup.

At first I thought it might be a bit dodgey but it will fit but now I see that it takes considerable planning to get a worthy result.

The whole thing feels wrong to try and attempt, especially since I am a novice in wheel building, I just dont have it in me.
I am now thinking its probably more worth while to sell my Bontrager rim since its still near brand new and use the funds to buy a proper 36hole rim.
Anyone have recommend sites to buy a 36h rim? I want a black one with no rim brake support on it, disc brake only style.

This one is available in 36h in 29", any comments?
http://www.chainreactioncycles.com/au/en/mavic-xm119-disc-mtb-rim-2015/rp-prod127033
Edit/add
According to this guys youtube review of the Mavic XM 119 Disc its erd is 595 which is perfect for my 240mm spokes I already have, taking this as a sign I should go this route.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MXMwefrNFpM

 

[NeilP]

Draw a scale diagram in something like Google Sketchup or any handy CAD or graphics program and see what those angles are.

Way easier to use Justins Spoke Calculator: http://www.ebikes.ca/tools/spoke-calc.html

Not if you are doing a 36 hole hub to a 32 hole rim, since although the Spokes may cross each otgher twice, it wont be a true 2 cross pattern as the other spoke angle...the one that defines the calculations, won't be the same as for a conventional lacign pattern. The ' other spoke angle ' that I talk of is the one that is used in the spoek length clculation behind justins calculator. You may jsut put in (x2) for the cross pattern, but in reality it is usign the spoke angle...off the top of my head..20 degrees, but I'd need to check when I get home . ....or draw a diagram

The spoke angle for the calculation is from where the spoke enters the hub, to the centre of the wheel , then out to the other end of the same spoke at the rim

See this page for a better explanation

http://sheldonbrown.com/mismatch/

 

[NeilP]

So now I am back at home
i have spent a while doing a quick 2D sketch up drawing and some calculations for angles and into decimal crosses.


The missed hole on the hub is between the two C spokes.
The other side of the wheel, this pattern would be 90 degrees rotates around.

I just chucked some vague figures in to my own spoke calculator
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=59701&p=1031598#p1031598

ERD550
HUB DIAMETER 180
NIL RIM OFFSET
HUB WIDTH 50 MM
There would be 4 difference spoke lengths, and working with those figures above, gives lengths of some where around
212mm
216mm
225mm
233mm

Remember those are just totally made up hub and rim figures , but it gives you an idea of how different the spoke lengths will be.
this is how it would look with the single hole missed out on each side

A=1.722 cross
B=1.944 cross
C=2.166 cross
D=2.388 cross

 

[NeilP]

There is a picture on this page of where it has been done

http://www.rideyourbike.com/wheelbuilding.shtml

 

[TheBeastie]

There is a picture on this page of where it has been done

http://www.rideyourbike.com/wheelbuilding.shtml

Thanks for the info. It would be great to see if this kind of thing could become more common place considering the amount of 32h rims out there.
Nice work finding someone complete with an actual pic of a 36h hub and a 32h rim, after googling around a bit I got the feeling it didn't exist on the internet.
I feel like posting that pic, it in some ways is a sight for sore eyes.
Edit/add, had to add this pic of that wheel build as I think it adds realness to the fact it can be done.

 

[NeilP]

If you want to do this sort of stuff yourself, star trading that mismatched wheel building article.

it is the only one that haloed me get my head around it, that and a bit of coaching from Chalo on another thread on here.

Once you can get your head around the concept of those spoke angles I show in red in my graphic and weird decimal cross patterns it all makes sense, and you can start doing drawings of weird spook patterns


Start off with a central circle, with the same number of divisions as spook holes on one side....so in this case 18 divisions

Then the circle external of the wheel rim with the 32 holes / divisions.

then start drawng lines and use the technique as described in the mismatched wheel building article.

From there once you know that spook angle you can use the raw spoke formula rather than an online calculator

Any way 2200hr here..off to bed.

Happy reading g...it left my he'd spinning the first few times

 

[TheBeastie]

Well I have laced my hub into a new 36hole rim.
I built my own home made professional truing stand out of two old broken front forks I have had since a bike crash a while back.

 

[999zip999]

What a challenge well done. Is that a parks tool coat hanger wheel truer ? I made one out of a bed frame and two welds and 4in. Grinder.

 

[Obiwan007]

A quick tale of woe and ultimate success that may help others. I recently built a wheel that was a ton of grief but I learned a lot. I have built six wheels over the last year and a half including one fat tire front wheel that all turned out very good and solid. Recently though I agreed to build a wheel for a family member who was converting her fat bike into a front wheel electric. Got the hub motor (Clyte HS3540 front for the 135mm drop outs matching the 135mm front fork drop outs). The bike owner wanted to acquire her own rim though (old one was 32 hole) so she could have it custom powder coated in green. She eventually decided to go with a Rolling Darryl from Surley that came with double drilled side-by-side holes drilled 1" apart (72 holes total). Here is a pic:


Now I understand the purpose of this double drilling. It allows deep dishing on the back by using all the holes on one side and centered lacing by using alternating holes. Problem is, the 1" spacing is extreme, especially compared to the 1 1/4" flange spacing of this motor (much less than a standard non-electric hub). Still no problem though because I can use the cross hole lacing technique, crossing the center line of the rim, for increased triangulation...right? So I spoke calced it on the grin tool (Thanks again Justin) and ordered up the spokes. All seemed well on initial lacing and I chose to put all the elbows inward to reduce the triangulation a bit since, by cross-lacing, it was pretty steep, like this if the spoke were laced elbows outward:


But as I began to tension the wheel a severe problem began to emerge; the inner two spokes of each four-spoke group was touching another spoke in two places while the outer two spokes in a group were touching only one other spoke. As the tension came up it began to taco the rim dramatically. In addition, the whole wheel had no lateral stability. You can kind of see how the spokes interact in this photo of the wheel before tensioning:

I then tried re-lacing it with the spokes in a different interlacing pattern that reduced the effect but did not eliminate it. I ended up lacing it conventional (not crossing the center line) with all of the elbows outward. This reduced the triangulation considerably to a degree I would never use on my higher powered builds but in the end it worked and the resulting wheel felt VERY strong laterally to my surprise. Here is the spoke calculator arrangement:
View attachment 1
So I left it in this configuration. A few of the spokes sat proud of the nipples just a touch so I ground them down with no problems. In retrospect, I wish I had tried cross lacing with the elbows outward just to see if the center two spokes still touched in two places. But I think the triangulation in that configuration would have been too extreme. In fact, I now believe that high triangulation angle may have been part of the original problem. Anyway, in the end, looking at the various geometry of the different lacing methods, that cross lacing would have worked out fine if the spoke spacing had been just a bit narrower, or the flange spacing had been a bit wider. So the lesson here is; if you are contemplating a 26" fat tire build, look for rims with a total spoke offset of 3/4" or less, or a hub flange width of 1 1/2" or more, or both

 

[cycborg]

I think that what I am attempting to do has not quite been covered in this thread yet, so maybe my efforts will yield some useful information…

I just acquired a 9c front hub that I want to put in a 20” wheel. A DD hub in a small wheel would seem to require radial lacing, but I wanted to see if I could come up with something different. As I was browsing the Danscomp website for spokes, I saw that they had Sun City Lite 48H rims on sale for $10. With the dual advantages of being super-cheap and allowing non-radial lacing, I decided to figure out what I could do with it.

So how to fit a big 36H hub into a small 48H rim? Oh, and this particular rim has the added constraint of off-center holes, so preferably I needed to devise a pattern that laces L-L and R-R.

I came up with a couple variations. The red dots are right side, green are left. None of the spokes are actually radial, and the crossed spokes exit the rim within the 12-13 degree rule-of-thumb angle, so I should have decent torque transfer without excessive bending stress on the spokes or nipples. Here’s the first pattern:

One concern I have with this pattern is that the driving torque will be biased to one side and regen torque will be biased to the other side. A variation on this pattern un-crosses every other pair of crossed spokes, turning them into V’s and reversing their torque direction, although this reduces the out-of-radial angle a bit (good for nipples, bad for torque).

Experienced builders, let me know if this is nuts, or if there are some problems or challenges to this approach I may not have thought of. Thanks!

 

[NeilP]

No idea about problems, this is just a quick comment from my bed and iphone after waking at 0125 .

I see the groups if 'almost radial spokes are all blocks of 4.

Would it not be possible to have them as crosses too? Yes the 'cross' naybe offset, but worth a drawing to see how it goes.

Have you done spoke length calculations yet?

 

[cycborg]

No idea about problems, this is just a quick comment from my bed and iphone after waking at 0125 .

I see the groups if 'almost radial spokes are all blocks of 4.

Would it not be possible to have them as crosses too? Yes the 'cross' naybe offset, but worth a drawing to see how it goes.

Have you done spoke length calculations yet?

Thanks for the reply - I see what you're talking about, and I'll recalculate tomorrow when it's a better hour for both of us. :wink:

I have calculated spoke lengths and ordered the spokes; hopefully what I ordered will work for whatever pattern I end up with, but it's a simple matter (and cheap) to order some more if I end up going in a different direction.

 

[NeilP]

Out of interest did you calculate accurate lengths from spoke angles for each different spoke length or just use 'generic' near enough figures.
I'd guess you probably have 6 or so different lengths if you are being totally accurate .

If you look through my posts, i had questions about mismatched wheel building, and loads of info on those threads with good links to help you get your head around 'spoke angle' as used in the long hand spoke length formula.

https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=3&t=59701

Sheldon Brown Mismatched wheel


What 9C motor is it? what is the spoke hole circle diameter and spoke hole diameter.
I have the ERD of the rim as 406mm

I'll have a play and see if we come up with the same results