Torque sensor or not?

[sirensynapse]

Hi, I'm looking at Grin's All-Axle motor and it comes in two versions: with torque sensor or just basic PAS sensor.
I'm a total noob here. Can anyone tell me which I probably want or need? Does having a torque sensor depend on the right computer to put it to use? Is it that helpful/worth the extra shekels?
Cheers

 

[Epithemeus]

If you're getting the whole kit from Grin and not just the motor then you will be able to use the sensor through either the phase/baserunner directly or into the Cycle Analyst if you get that. If getting a different controller from elsewhere, some support it, some don't but setup and ensuring compatibility will be harder.

Do you want it? Totally subjective and dependent on riding style and preferences. How are you planning on using the bike? In general torque sensors feel most like normal bike riding which is very important for some. For someone who never/rarely pedals a torque sensor would be a total waste of time. Best way to know for sure is to try various bikes with different control schemes (torque, cadence, etc.) and see what you prefer.

 

[sirensynapse]

I will just be doing a particular stretch of 130-190km a couple times per month, otherwise will just remove the motor wheel. It's just a commute I need to do, but I'm sick unto death of the sardine packed trains full of german cell phone zombies.
Of course, I'll pedal as hard as ever, terrain is flat with some hills. I have no desire or time to try any bikes, just want to buy, build and fly, so will take advice and read and choose. Thanks.

 

[stancecoke]

I'm a total noob here. Can anyone tell me which I probably want or need?

If you want to have a natural ride feeling, you should choose the torquesensor.
If you want to ride moped, just pseudo turning the pedals to meet the regulations, choose the simple PAS version.
I rode a test bike with the torquesensor on the German Spezi trade fair some weeks ago, it felt fantastic .
(Grintech had a booth there)
If you are from Germany, you can buy at EBS Heidelberg also, they are the German partners of Grin.

regards
stancecoke

 

[sirensynapse]

If you want to have a natural ride feeling, you should choose the torquesensor.
If you want to ride moped, just pseudo turning the pedals to meet the regulations, choose the simple PAS version.
I rode a test bike with the torquesensor on the German Spezi trade fair some weeks ago, it felt fantastic .
(Grintech had a booth there)

regards
stancecoke

Cool, that's good to hear a first hand account. Too bad I didn't know about the fair. Where was that?

 

[E-HP]

I will just be doing a particular stretch of 130-190km a couple times per month, otherwise will just remove the motor wheel. It's just a commute I need to do, but I'm sick unto death of the sardine packed trains full of german cell phone zombies.
Of course, I'll pedal as hard as ever, terrain is flat with some hills. I have no desire or time to try any bikes, just want to buy, build and fly, so will take advice and read and choose. Thanks.

Is there a lot of stop and go during your commute or mainly long stretches? You might benefit from a torque sensor if you're starting and stopping a lot, but with a Grin kit, you should be able to tune a cadence PAS to work for your situation. The torque sensor would help with stop and go, providing assistance when starting off if you need it, since cadence PAS kicks in after a partial crank turn (which you can also tune with the Grin stuff). Since it sounds like you don't really need that assistance since you mostly pedal, then torque sensing isn't necessary.
That said, I rode my neighbor's ebike the other day with a Brose torque sensing mid drive and it made me want to install my torque sensor which has been laying in the parts box for almost 2 years. I was surprised at how well it worked starting off on a 5% grade.

 

[Epithemeus]

I will just be doing a particular stretch of 130-190km a couple times per month, otherwise will just remove the motor wheel. It's just a commute I need to do, but I'm sick unto death of the sardine packed trains full of german cell phone zombies.
Of course, I'll pedal as hard as ever, terrain is flat with some hills. I have no desire or time to try any bikes, just want to buy, build and fly, so will take advice and read and choose. Thanks.

Fair. Entirely based on "I'll pedal as hard as ever" I'd say get the torque sensor. You can combine cadence based and even throttle setups with pedaling but it's just not as fluid and requires extra thought/setup/practice whereas torque sensor is entirely intuitive, just pedal and go. I think it's worth the extra cash, assuming you've got it. If you're strapped then you certainly still can make a great bike without.

 

[stancecoke]

Where was that?

Internationale Spezialradmesse SPEZI

www.spezialradmesse.de

Spezi Wrap-up

Grin Technologies

ebikes.ca

In Lauchringen. EBS shared the booth with Grin, both had a test bike with the cassette integrated torquesensor. But EBS has their own controller system, that doesn't need the Cycle Analyst to communicate with the sensor.

You can ask @didi28 in the German pedelecforum.de for details.
You can find a review of the sensor in the german forum also, but with a different motor.

Analyse Getriebenabenmotor mit integriertem Drehmomentsensor von Kclamber

Mich hat doch zu sehr die Neugierde getrieben und ich habe mir den Motor bei Aliexpress bestellt. Lieferung über FedEx per Luftfracht, der Motor war deutlich schneller da, als in der Kaufabwicklung angekündigt. Wie häufig bei Phoebe Liu EVParts. Keinerlei Stress mit Zoll oder CE-Zertifikat...

www.pedelecforum.de

regards
stancecoke

 

[sirensynapse]

In Lauchringen. EBS shared the booth with Grin, both had a test bike with the hub integrated torquesensor. But EBS has their own controller system, that doesn't need the Cycle Analyst to communicate with the sensor.

I suppose you mean e-bike solutions? How is there stuff anyway? I am focused on Grin first, but open to whatever works best...and saving some money is nice, if I can get something I don't have to ship from Canada.

 

[sirensynapse]

Is there a lot of stop and go during your commute or mainly long stretches? You might benefit from a torque sensor if you're starting and stopping a lot, but with a Grin kit, you should be able to tune a cadence PAS to work for your situation. The torque sensor would help with stop and go, providing assistance when starting off if you need it, since cadence PAS kicks in after a partial crank turn (which you can also tune with the Grin stuff). Since it sounds like you don't really need that assistance since you mostly pedal, then torque sensing isn't necessary.
That said, I rode my neighbor's ebike the other day with a Brose torque sensing mid drive and it made me want to install my torque sensor which has been laying in the parts box for almost 2 years. I was surprised at how well it worked starting off on a 5% grade.

Oh, a fair bit of stop and go. Always hitting stop signs, and needing some breaks. You and another guy have pretty well convinced me to get the torque.

 

[stancecoke]

I suppose you mean e-bike solutions?

Yes, they sell Grin components. I don't know, if they offer the system they showed on the Spezi commercially already, just contact @didi28

regards
stancecoke

 

[sirensynapse]

Do you reckon that the two euro distributors get a discount from Grin?
Just wondering what their profit margin is and if there is any wiggle room on prices with them, since they are slightly obscenely high over here. Not being a cheapskate, but if they are importing a hub that costs 300 and one that costs 900, it's exactly the same amount of work to them; so me paying 3x more for said work is a bit unfair.

 

[stancecoke]

They offer service and warranty in Germany. Of course this has to be payed.

regards
stancecoke

 

[sirensynapse]

They offer service and warranty in Germany. Of course this has to be payed.

regards
stancecoke

Not sure how that works with warranty/service.
E bike solutions charges fully 25% more than Grin, even after the tax is taken out of the equation. That is massive, when all they're doing is ordering it, shelving it, and shipping it again.
And that calculation is if they're paying full retail, which I doubt. Usually distributors get it cheaper, and sell at a similar price to the original shop/manufacturer, so they're already making their profit there. Of course, shipping gets added on, but that's not much.

 

[stancecoke]

Not sure how that works with warranty/service.

Your decision. If everything works out of the box, it might be a little cheaper to buy directly in Canada. If it doesn't work, I wish you much fun, with shippings things back or getting spare parts....

regards
stancecoke

 

[sirensynapse]

Your decision. If everything works out of the box, it might be a little cheaper to buy directly in Canada. If doesn't work, I wish you much fun, with shippings things back or getting spare parts....

regards
stancecoke

Jaaa. If I can smuggle it, might be worth it, but I know what you're saying. Just bloody expensive. Almost a grand just for the motor. Wow.

 

[docw009]

Jaaa. If I can smuggle it, might be worth it, but I know what you're saying. Just bloody expensive. Almost a grand just for the motor. Wow.

Grin's gear is nice, but busts my budget. A simple geared motor with cadence sensor, KT Controller/display and a battery is less than a grand for me. Probably millions of people slogging to work every day on something similar. I don't have to ride to work, but if I did, I wouldn't want to work hard at all. Give an an easy pedalling cadence sensor.

I just ride for recreation and have a couple of ebike builds I ride. I do own a torque sensing mid drive kit (TSDZ2). I really like mine, but I had to put my wife's TSDZ2 into cadence sensor mode. Otherwise, she couln't keep up with a 20km/hour pace.

 

[sirensynapse]

Grin's gear is nice, but busts my budget. A simple geared motor with cadence sensor, KT Controller/display and a battery is less than a grand for me. Probably millions of people slogging to work every day on something similar. I don't have to ride to work, but if I did, I wouldn't want to work hard at all. Give an an easy pedalling cadence sensor.

I just ride for recreation and have a couple of ebike builds I ride. I do own a torque sensing mid drive kit (TSDZ2). I really like mine, but I had to put my wife's TSDZ2 into cadence sensor mode. Otherwise, she couln't keep up with a 20km/hour pace.

What do you mean about keeping up with the pace? I'm starting to think about going a bit more budget here, as you say; splurge on the batteries, if anything.

 

[docw009]

Our normal pace is 12 mph. Been doing that for 9 years on shared trips. She couldn't ride her torque sensor bike that fast because it took too much pedal pressure to activate the motor, even when she was in turbo mode. Fortunately, the motor has a cadence sensor too, and there was software available to run on it solely, Now she keeps up, and is happier too,

 

[sirensynapse]

Our normal pace is 12 mph. Been doing that for 9 years on shared trips. She couldn't ride her torque sensor bike that fast because it took too much pedal pressure to activate the motor, even when she was in turbo mode. Fortunately, the motor has a cadence sensor too, and there was software available to run on it solely, Now she keeps up, and is happier too,

Ok, I thought that was what you meant. My brain saw that as impossibly slow, and short circuited. Mixing km and miles up or something. On an 8 month tour, I averaged 8.7 mph, so you're flying past me.
So using a cadence sensor simply speeds the bike up or down directly based on cadence? is that linear or programmable? Trying to imagine how that would feel...

 

[stancecoke]

is that linear or programmable?

No, it's completely stupid.
You choose a level of speed or of power in the display, then the controller powers the motor without any intelligence, when you are pedaling forward (even if you turn the cranks without any force)

There is a Wiki, that describes the different philosophies how to tell the motor how strong to assist.

elektrotechnik:komponenten_eines_pedelecantriebes [Wiki Pedelec-Forum]

www.pedelecforum.de

The TSDZ2 is known to have a really poor torquesensor.
The sensitivity of the sensor varies greatly between individual motors, there are extra instructions on how to calibrate the sensor

 

[99t4]

Does having a torque sensor depend on the right computer to put it to use? Is it that helpful/worth the extra shekels?

I'm going to give a contrarian opinion based on my experience. My second ebike had well-implemented torque sensor. Bionx 350. It did made me feel like I had superman legs. But compared to my other ebikes (variety of PAS, PAS+throttle, throttle only) it wasn't a must-have feature.

Like yourself, I pedal like crazy all the time and find the sweet spot to be throttle+cruise control, considering rideability, comfort, safety, reliability, and economy. Put the saved money into better battery.

 

[stancecoke]

I'm looking at Grin's All-Axle motor

Why are you are looking at this quite special motor? Has your bike thru axle dropouts?
If you just want to commute without sweating, buy a cheap Yose Power conversion set....

 

[sysrq]

If you want to have a natural ride feeling, you should choose the torquesensor.
If you want to ride moped, just pseudo turning the pedals to meet the regulations, choose the simple PAS version.
I rode a test bike with the torquesensor on the German Spezi trade fair some weeks ago, it felt fantastic .
(Grintech had a booth there)
If you are from Germany, you can buy at EBS Heidelberg also, they are the German partners of Grin.

regards
stancecoke

Torque sensors typically feel mushy when pedalling. Not sure if that can be considered natural. Cadence sensors feel like constant tailwind which motivates you to pedal harder as long as there is no ghost pedalling.
Also using torque sensor results in need of motor assistance even on the flats after hilly long distance commute while cadence sensor with occasional high RPM throttle on 17% hills results in reduced mental fatigue while allowing to pedal in the flat parts of the city without any help from the motor after 50 mile commute.

 

[Gruesome]

Torque sensors typically feel mushy when pedalling. Not sure if that can be considered natural.

Definitely an interesting comment or observation. I could see that if there is a delay in the torque response it could feel mushy/swampy/not firm. Was this your observation with more than one torque sensor, or just with a specific unit?

Cadence sensors feel like constant tailwind which motivates you to pedal harder as long as there is no ghost pedalling.
Also using torque sensor results in need of motor assistance even on the flats after hilly long distance commute while cadence sensor with occasional high RPM throttle on 17% hills results in reduced mental fatigue while allowing to pedal in the flat parts of the city without any help from the motor after 50 mile commute.

Mhmm. So that's a mental thing, getting used to the torque support? I'm not planning to do 130 to 190 km at a time, more like 60 to 80 miles or 100 to 130 km, but if the torque based support tends to screw with your natural pedaling, that would be good to know.