Turnigy HXT Powered Custom Cruiser Worklog

[AussieJester]

+1 for upping the voltage. As an added incentive, the BMS unit I'm doing for you will be 18-channels, instead of 12. :wink: You can use 12, for now, and then simply plug in the new packs, when you get them. One thing you might consider is just adding one more 6s-5000 Turnigy pack, and re-configure them for 18s3p. or 66V/15Ah, .

66v is exactly what i agreed with Luke i would do, he said no probs organising the bracket with hall sensors for me on the proviso i upped the volts, yet another thing he excels at...blackmail LMAO... I wont be doing anything with halls until Luke has it sorted and is happy with it, if it passes his lofty standards im sure i will be well pleased with it Cheers Luke....I will still be picking up another Turnigy 130kv when they come in stock though, i want the new version with skirted bearings...... an extra 6s-5000 Turnigy pack is the shot Gary that is exactly what i will do mate, will fit in the box no probs at all...then comes the next question Gary, how the freak do i charge them? do i need another meanwell in series with my current 48v PSU and both set to ~37v ?

I was actually just looking at Kellys website, what are there small brushless speed controllers like? 24-72V 120amp was what i was looking at...

KiM

 

[EV4LIFE]

Well, all I know is that kelly's are limited to 40,000 electric rpm.
So with the 12 pole HXT motor thats 3333.333...mechanical rpm max.
at 130kv and 48v thats 6240rpm, (could be wrong with the maths) but with that 130kv motor the mech rpm is too high, meaning the motor will be limited.
at approx 66v. 3333.33../66= 50kv (I believe, sorry if im completely wrong and giving you wrong info)
So you needa get the 130kv motor down to around 50kv and under in order to use a kelly (and hall sensors and such)

Martin

 

[enoob]

not sure if its a programing option or if it cost more $ but i have one of these and im sorting out the wiring right now.
http://www.newkellycontroller.com/mot/downloads/KellyKBSUserManual.pdf
under 2.2 features it says optional 70,000 electric rpm.

that gets us only 400ish rpm away if my math is right

 

[EV4LIFE]

And so it does say it, cool. so 70,000elec.rpm/12pole= 5833.33
lets say 66.6v, 5833.3/66.6= 87kv and under,
that's doable as, rewiring the HXT delta to wye/star gets the 130kv motor to about 75kv.

 

[boostjuice]

Yes, 70,000 electrical RPM models are available, but you sacrifice most of the cool controller features with these models. Most of the electrical RPM gain is realised through the unit's microcontroller having less of these special functions to process per clock cycle.

The RPM limitation of using one of these may not be as crippling as you may think. Loaded RPM @ max power is around 4000~5000RPM for 130Kv HXT's (EDIT @48V, likely around 6000RPM@66V). There may however be a reduction in top-speed with only 3 widely spaced hub gears or single speed as Jester intends to migrate towards. This assumes that the motor still has enough power to accelerate to higher speeds in it's highest RPM range (the more efficient, but less power producing part of its powerband)

Anyone know what the electrical RPM limitation is for the Infineon Microcontroller based 18FET controllers??

 

[gtadmin]

KiM, great build beautifully crafted mate! On the home stretch now ...

Alaskavan thanks mate, still a few little things to "tune" after talking with Matt.P and his experience
with builds i have decided ill make sure shes 100% right before pulling it down now, suits me i get to hammer it
ti make sure its 'right' hehehe...

Makes good sense to thoroughly "sort" the bike in it's final config before applying the finishing touches, but you'll have to overcome the urge to give it "just one more run" :wink:

Sorry I can't add to the controller discussion.

When you have a spare 5 mins, would it be possible to get a couple of frame details? I'm looking for wheelbase, steering angle and trail specifically as I'm considering a build that's a cross between your cruiser and a "Velokraft NoCom" , using a composite frame with embedded batts, controller, motor ... No problems if it's not convenient though!

Cheers,
GT

 

[EV4LIFE]

Yes, 70,000 electrical RPM models are available, but you sacrifice most of the cool controller features with these models. Most of the electrical RPM gain is realised through the unit's microcontroller having less of these special functions to process per clock cycle.

The RPM limitation of using one of these may not be as crippling as you may think. Loaded RPM @ max power is around 4000~5000RPM for 130Kv HXT's. There may however be a reduction in top-speed with only 3 widely spaced hub gears or single speed as Jester intends to migrate towards. This assumes that the motor still has enough power to accelerate to higher speeds in it's highest RPM range (the more efficient, but less power producing part of its powerband)

Anyone know what the electrical RPM limitation is for the Infineon Microcontroller based 18FET controllers??

Ah yes thats right forgot about load and all.
I remember reading somewhere that someone used the controller up to 120k electrical rpm, but i can't confirm that.

 

[liveforphysics]

Funny that RC motor controllers, pretty much all of them, from the ones the size of your pinky to the biggest ones can all do 200,000-500,000 electrical RPM, and the Kellys are stuck at 70,000. Lol

I can confirm that the infinions are able to do over 10,000rpm on the HXT motor.

 

[John in CR]

Funny that RC motor controllers, pretty much all of them, from the ones the size of your pinky to the biggest ones can all do 200,000-500,000 electrical RPM, and the Kellys are stuck at 70,000. Lol

I can confirm that the infinions are able to do over 10,000rpm on the HXT motor.

When are the cheap and small RC controllers going to start being able to handle decent voltages? My motors have such high pole counts that they should shouldn't have low speed issues. I just need at least 81v off the charger capability.

 

[johnrobholmes]

When are the cheap and small RC controllers going to start being able to handle decent voltages? My motors have such high pole counts that they should shouldn't have low speed issues. I just need at least 81v off the charger capability.

There are groups working on it. Of course as fast as possible is never fast enough for the market.

 

[John in CR]

When are the cheap and small RC controllers going to start being able to handle decent voltages? My motors have such high pole counts that they should shouldn't have low speed issues. I just need at least 81v off the charger capability.

There are groups working on it. Of course as fast as possible is never fast enough for the market.

I hope they're working on an 8" diameter motor too?

 

[johnrobholmes]

Other groups are working on that, no need to get spread too thin :wink:

 

[Jeremy Harris]

The HXT and similar 12 slot, 14 magnet, motors don't need controllers capable of working at 12 times the rotational rpm of the motor. I've measured the frequency on the output of my controllers, and measured the rpm of the motors, and the ratio is 7:1, not 12:1.

So, if the Kelly controllers are OK for 70,000 electrical rpm, then the motor will be OK to 10,000 rpm. Not massive, granted, but probably close to the limiting mechanical rpm for the bigger outrunners.

The key figure here is the number magnetic pole pairs, in this case 7 (from 14 magnets, arranged as 7 pole pairs), not the number of stator slots.

Jeremy

 

[John in CR]

Other groups are working on that, no need to get spread too thin :wink:

...and yet others in addition to Thud working on multi-speed transmissions for us I hope.

 

[Miles]

...and yet others in addition to Thud working on multi-speed transmissions for us I hope.

Possibly :wink:

 

[AussieJester]

I have had a few 'teething' problems last few days, i'm not sure if i mentioned on this thread
or not, but i had to 'beef up' the reduction drive mount, it was originally fastened with 2x8mm
high tensile steel bolts, this didn't cut it, the mount twisted under hard acceleration SO, a new
mount was made utilising 4x8mm bolts, the reduction drive stays put now BUT the wheel
moved hahaa the belt adjusters i made that are also meant to stop the wheel moving...
well...one of those snapped..literally LoL..AND yes the wheel nuts were as tight as i could get them...

I laid on some extra weld, hopefully they will withstand the force now...If they dont
i will be fabricating some form of adjuster on the opposite side of the axle that will prevent any 'slippage'

I had a 5 foot poll mounted on my bike angled backward, camera a top of it
all ready to take some onboard vide for you fellas, made it out the driveway
thought i would show y'all what the bike accelerated like, this is when it spat the belt
adjuster out LoL...Hopefully this will be the last breakage DAMN these little motors have some
poke though, heaven help me when i have it on 66v and two of them

I also took a few nice shots of the bike out in the light, i have upped them
on the photo before and after thread thought i would add them to the worklog
also-->

Alrightieee...ill hopefully have some more luck with some onboard vid tomorrow

KiM

 

[enoob]

them theres some nice photos. what some paint is gonna do for that ride is hard to imagine. no doubt it will be good but how good it will finish the look is gonna be somethin to see.

with the batt enclosure done to match rather than the bolt on look most are stuck with being the main bit a bling .

 

[Vim]

Kim, my hat's off to you, that is truly one wicked electric chopper. The lines of the bike are gorgeous. You're a true artist, and this bike should be featured in a magazine or something for god sake! Go into business and build these for a living.

 

[AussieJester]

Cheers guys, at least its sort of looking the part, the functionality of it
atm could be improved-->

The surging issues is still haunting me, i have also blown a cap in the ESC
and the 3 speed Sturmey Archer, well..its just crap, i strongly advise anyone thinking of using
an internal 3 speed to re-think this option. The sprocket attachment method is less than
satisfactory IMO, Matt.P will back me up with this im sure, the amount of lateral movement
the sprocket has is quite frankly rubbish, makes chain/belt alignment an issue, under hard
acceleration the sprocket moves, with a belt, it spits it... with a chain, it aint going to sound to flash
and i would envisage premature chain/sprocket wear...haha if the internals of the hub actually
lasted more than 5 minutes..


SO..my bike is now parked up for the time being...last night i laced up the spare
20x4.25 rim with the chrome extra wide freewheel hub Matt.P picked up from
ChoppersUS for me last order i have ordered a ENO freewheel from sickbikeparts
wont be here for at least 2 weeks though closer to 3 likely, this will replace the Sturmey Archer -->

As can be seen, there is also a blown cap on the ESC not sure why this happened the
bike wasn't even moving when it blew, i was placing the lid back on the battery
enclosure when the bang and flame happened :-S Still runs fine ..well as it did before...

I have also replaced a cap and added a resistor to the fechter interface in an effort to
eliminate the surging issue, it hasn't completely eliminated it. This combined with the
sync at start up makes the bike rather dangerous for me to ride, i need a smooth take
off to get upto 'balance speed' its fine if i use the actuators, but i dont like using them
on the road much, if i am taking off from a 'T' junctions for example. its very difficult,
you either launch forward unable to turn to make the corner (if you do you tip over when
actuators are lowered) and run off the road OR i use my feet down and take off hoping
it will be smooth enough not requiring the strength i dont have to keep the bike from
falling because there ESC/interface aren't syncing or i get surging happening...Once its
up past 10km/hr or past ~1/4throttle its fantastic! ooodles of power and its smooth...Everything
before 1/4 throttle needs fixing...

SO...options...first i am chasing a speed controller...Luke suggested one of Lyens 18fet speed controllers $us159 + $us25 postage=$us184
fair price i guess BUT ITs TEN INCHES LONG ffs..aint gunna happen soz Luke, wont fit in my enclosure and theres no way known im bolting the monstrosity on the frame anywhere...Option two...A Kelly
mini speed controller As someone mentioned 'they are on 40k electrical rpm" well actually they are'nt they have an option for 70k electrical rpm if you lose certain pointless options..reverse...regen..etc.. SO..will 70k electrical rpm cut it for a Turnigy on 66v? If so...problem solved the Kelyy is acceptable size ie. size of packet of cigarettes.. Option 3..and TBH i nearly took this one a day or so ago...buy a cyclone 1500 watt motor and speed controller..I already emailed Paco he can do me the motor and controller for $us470 delivered to my door... Sad to lose the RC motor but it will be gone only as long a it takes for the fellas to sort out hall sensors, the cyclone would be an intrim solution only, i could use it on the Huffy drifter (plastic trike) I have
after that instead of the nancy frock motor i was going to whack on the front wheel for the lads to have fun with (and NO Luke i wouldnt have ridden it...on camera anywayz and denied all knowledge to the contrary ) ...So thems the options i have come up with, if anyone else has an ideas im all ears...

KiM

EDIT: Forgot one..I emailed Keywin ie. ecrazyman regarding the infinions he has, quoted me $us100 delivered for a instant star programmable 72v 45amp controller..He said "but the controller has stopped use the infineon XC846 MCU ,it is use XJC8B116A but stronger than XC846 " I have no idea what model/size this is or if it would even be useable, anyone tellz me what the deal is with this unit as the price is better than all...

 

[EV4LIFE]

The instant start 72v 45a e-crazyman controller that keywin quoted you is the 1500w one and according to the ebay specs its size is 180*85*45mm which I believe is a 12fet controller. The XJC8B116A based processors, is just the 'new' instant start models, but I don't have comparative data between the two. Yes it would be usable, just add hall sensors.

Or you could use a 6 fet controller, theres a couple pics of it on here, just a little larger than a credit card, fitted with 4110's and a couple of mods, methods has got it working to 50v running 60A or so all day, I reckon you can pull 100A bursts and it'll be fine. No doubt you could mod to higher voltages if need be, that might suit your small size requirements.

Martin

 

[j3tch1u]

kim, that looks bad-ass. good stuff

 

[dontsendbubbamail]

EDIT: Forgot one..I emailed Keywin ie. ecrazyman regarding the infinions he has, quoted me $us100 delivered for a instant star programmable 72v 45amp controller..He said "but the controller has stopped use the infineon XC846 MCU ,it is use XJC8B116A but stronger than XC846 " I have no idea what model/size this is or if it would even be useable, anyone tellz me what the deal is with this unit as the price is better than all...

I pretty sure that it is a 12 fet controller. Size is about 6 X 3.5 X 1.75 inches not including the mounting tabs. I was running one on 6S and the factory settings did not give the same performance as I got with a CC 110. The current limiting cuts in and you will be bogging down on the hills. You will get to the top, but it doesn't pull like the CC 110 with no current limiting. When I upped the current setting, I ended up melting a trace. Beef up the traces on a 12 fet and you will be OK. I went to the 18 fet controller and still the stock settings bogged down on the hills. Upping the current settings solved this and I have not melted any traces on the 18 fet yet. It not the extra fets that make the current handling difference. It is the wider traces on the 18 fet.

Bubba

 

[AussieJester]

Cheers EV4LIFE and bubba...I have pmed Methods to see if he happens to have any of the 12 fet controllers 'laying about'
there isnt any listed in his 'items for sale' page but i thought i would ask da Man first. Failing that i will pick up one
from Keywin..I want...erm..have to run at 66v so Buuba..if I beef up the traces will i have a controller thats on a par with the power the cc110 delivers?

Cheers fellas

KiM

 

[dontsendbubbamail]

so Buuba..if I beef up the traces will i have a controller thats on a par with the power the cc110 delivers?

Cheers fellas

KiM

My experience says it will be very close from a normal ride perspective. I can motor up hills in the 25 mph range will little or no bogging. It will feel a little dull compared to the CC 110 when the motor is demanding over the current limit because the controller is going to be limiting you. I used the ParameterDesigner and set the rated current to the max setting of 57 amps and the phase current to the max of 160 amps. The actual max current that you get is higher then 57 amps, but I don't understand why. One of the controller masters would have to explain it.

Bubba

 

[recumpence]

RC controllers are funny. They are like a high revving small displacement engine with a turbo puting out 25 pounds of boost. You get crazy hyper power, but in a finicky package.

I pedal first and try to keep from running more than a few seconds at a time under 50% throttle and the controllers survive fine. Heck, if you pedal first, and normally smack the throttle for hard blasts, they survive a huge amount of abuse. However, in your case, a sensored setup is superior.

This is the big area we need to push for improvement. There are a few of us working on this behind the scenes.

Matt