VW 'Volkswagen Uses Software to increase Pollution'

[spinningmagnets]

Some gasoline and diesel cars have an Exhaust Gas Recirculation device (EGR). During times when the sensors pick up a taste of (hot) unburned oxygen in the exhaust (which contributes to NOx), a valve opens and some of the low-oxygen air is re-routed back into the intake system. It is overly complex and prone to malfunction because the valve must operate with split-second timing and survive its entire life in the very hot exhaust system near the engine. In order to improve its performance a split hair more, the return loop passes through a heat exchanger to cool the 500F+ temps to near the 180F of the engine coolant.

Just more layers of complexity with additional failure points. Go to a constant RPM mini diesel, and much of the clutter goes away, reliability goes up, and the exhaust gets cleaner (with the engine running less than 10% of the amount of time it did before, when used in a plug-in hybrid).

Dramatically reducing the need for imported crude oil can overturn oil-fed geopolitics, and all of us deficit-spending our future economy into the toilet to fund wars and conflicts in places that need us to act as an example of how well things can work, instead of a benevolent slave-master. Hybrids using bio-diesel can help a great deal. At $5/gallon, we can grow our own fuel and create jobs right here. The engineers at VW did what they were told, so now...tell them to do this.

 

[Punx0r]

I agree that there is some exaggeration around the accusations being levelled at VW. The main beneficiaries are the domestic vehicle manufacturers in the U.S., who probably felt a little threatened by the prospect of foreign imports that were much more economical than their own products (and I imagine their diesel technology is some way behind so playing catchup might be hard). I imagine it's them who are eagerly fanning the flames of this scandal

BTW EGR valves have been common on diesel car engines for >20 years. They normally succeed in filling themselves and the inlet tract with an unbelievable amount of sticky carbon residue.

 

[speedmd]

This is not just a US issue. It is much more serious and they even admit they may not survive. It is a tiny part of the US market that if vanished, no one would even notice. http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/10/03/us-volkswagen-emissions-poetsch-idUSKCN0RX0GQ20151003

They have shown over and over that they don't care to meet pollution control specs. Even the gas cars they produce are very problematic on emission issues, often sticking customers with difficult to find / fix issues just out of warrantee period at much higher rates than competing models. Ask anyone doing emission tests for a living and you will get some interesting tales. They will stick customers on this one also if allowed to. Everyone looses with this type of corporate behavior when unchecked. I bet the German authorities come down much harder on them than anything the US does.

 

[Punx0r]

My understanding is that while the cheat software may have been installed in non-U.S. cars it was only necessary to pass U.S. emissions tests.

 

[speedmd]

That is the exact point Punx. Most will not pass the newer euro specs most likely either (basses on ICCT data) when driven down the road with honest software without additional hardware. The great German engineering myth has been busted. They can only pass tests under very light load/ power demand test conditions not typical to most drivers habits even with honest (non defeat) software. The UK would not have pulled them off lots basses on a US spec failure. This is certainly bad for all diesels now that tests are questionable at catching a representative sample of what they do in use and under real possibility of significant revision.

 

[Punx0r]

Fair enough, the issue has clearly grown and I'm behind the reporting. FWIW most cars spend 99% of their time at light throttle.

 

[Joseph C.]

Take this source with a handful of salt but Ford, Mercedes Mazda and and BMW are looking dodgy.

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3259067/It-s-not-just-VW-Official-tester-claims-four-diesel-car-giants-break-toxic-emissions-limit.html

 

[Hillhater]

:lol: ...Daily Mail..

 

[Chalo]

:lol: ...Daily Mail..

Well, how about this one, then: http://www.independent.co.uk/news/business/news/volkswagen-emissions-scandal-more-carmakers-implicated-as-tests-reveal-pollution-levels-of-popular-a6674386.html

 

[speedmd]

It is just the EV car makers making some trouble. I guess as good a time as any. Giga factory running yet? :lol: Bet this week there will be all kinds of talk on the toxicity of batteries and all the pollution they cause.

Not looking good for VW customers as the company heads are openly talking bankruptcy / reorganization rather than do the right thing and BUY BACK the cars.

"The difference between a excellent company and a terrible one is that the excellent one will eat their mistakes".

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/artic...rns-of-existential-threat-of-cheating-scandal http://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2015-10-04/volkswagen-chief-warns-of-existential-threat-of-cheating-scandal

 

[Hillhater]

. The great German engineering myth has been busted. They can only pass tests under very light load/ power demand test conditions not typical to most drivers habits even with honest (non defeat) software..

..I am pretty sure the EPA test cycle includes several hard acceleration cycles to 100km/HR in order to obtain realistic consumption figures.
I have no idea what settings they use on the dynamometer to simulate loading, but I would hope they are not dumb enough to ignor a realistic inertia/ road resistance !

. What they [Adac] have done is compared apples with pears,” a spokesman said. ......

It would seem there has been a lot of mixing of fruit, not just by media reports, "experts" , "spokesmen", etc ...
...but also by research groups who should know better !
" Real World". results will always be different to controlled testing results, not least because testing is not the real world !
But, if "testing procedures". Are agreed and used then that is the only method that should be used to compare results, not some other random driving cycle .
Further, it is apparent that some results being quoted are for "peak" or "instantaneous". readings, whilst the EPA figures are averaged over time/distance..
That is like comparing a battery "pulse" discharge current , to its continuous current rating .
Also,
I can only assume that eventually the sent of blood will die down and someone with common sense and a realistic approach with take control to get this all back into perspective

 

[LockH]

Hehe... "Real World". ... Which varies from place to place. In my (congested/urban) world, the traffic is a "steady" stop and go. "Oh! Must speed up! (To get to the next stop.)

 

[speedmd]

..I am pretty sure the EPA test cycle includes several hard acceleration cycles to 100km/HR in order to obtain realistic consumption figures.
I have no idea what settings they use on the dynamometer to simulate loading, but I would hope they are not dumb enough to ignor a realistic inertia/ road resistance !

It is not hard accells that bite them here. Think in hub motor terms, we have eddy current losses, copper losses and motor temperature. Eddy current losses adding to copper losses making the hot motor that produces NOx in the ICE motor. The case with VW is the motor temperature is much like copper resistance losses much more than normal and commonly running into rpms that cause high iron losses. After a few hard accelerations, the motor if not allowed to cool will start to melt down with even tiny amounts of throttle (like a lean mix/light throttle -putting most of the current into heat due to even higher copper resistance) if run into high iron loss rpms if the ambient air cooling is insufficient. It is normal Normal driving when trying to keep up with the high powered gas cars that bites them.

I can assure you, common sense when dealing with government agencies is fatally optimistic. We are at a sea change in automotive history. They all need to Adapt or perish.

 

[Joseph C.]

:lol: ...Daily Mail..

I did say a handful of salt.

Just looking at that article and one ot two others and I have to admit they are brilliant at what they do. Write articles that aggrieve their target demographic and let the comments build and watch while the readers click on down vote or upvote in a Pavlovian frenzy. Rinse and repeat until a substantial proportion of their online readers are both mouth foaming and addicted. Rinse and repeat. Rinse and repeat. Sometimes I wonder is the Internet a good thing..

 

[speedmd]

8 million cars in Europe using defeat software and most likely to be recalled. http://www.theaustralian.com.au/news/latest-news/vw-tells-mps-8million-cars-in-europe-hit/story-fn3dxity-1227558742010

West Virginia sues vw, demands refund for customers. http://thehill.com/policy/energy-environment/255960-west-virginia-sues-vw-over-emissions-scandal

 

[Hillhater]

legal posturing..bound to happen with all the possible financial gains being touted.
i guess every party with the faintest chance of a gain with "stake their claim"
If i were the man making decisions for VW, i would make a statement now to the effect that they will fight every claim, through every legal option, for as long as possible until all the financial resources are bled out in legal fees, and the relevant divisions are bankrupt !!.... such that no claims are ever likely to get even 1 cent on the dollar.
That should make a few think twice before hiring lawyers.

 

[speedmd]

Hill, exactly the wrong thing to do IMO. They might as well just close the doors today with such an approach and hope they (top management) can stay out of jail.

They would be best served trying to fix or replace every one of the cheat vehicles even if they had to re mortgage the farm if at all possible. Easy? No. But they have no choice and bankruptcy and fighting ruthlessly in public will only make sure no one will ever buy again. They are the ones that decided to blatantly defraud everyone and have no high ground to stand on.

Governments can seize property and may just take that approach with this level of criminality. They have nothing better to do.

Yep. It is shaping up to be the Biggest industrial blunder of all time.
http://fortune.com/2015/10/06/volkswagen-emissions-scandal-2008-financial-crisis/

Blue Book down 13% so far! http://www.wsj.com/articles/kelley-blue-book-volkswagen-diesel-car-values-decline-13-1444147701

 

[speedmd]

It is D day for VW. Do or Die. 78 years of business may just go down the drain unless some grown ups come to the table.

http://www.reuters.com/article/2015/10/07/us-volkswagen-emissions-idUSKCN0S113S20151007

 

[speedmd]

Good article on the history of the cheating.
http://www.businessinsider.com/this-is-the-real-cause-of-the-vw-cheating-scandal-2015-10

VW withdraws its EPA application for 2016 diesels.
http://www.autonews.com/article/20151007/OEM11/151009850/vw-withdraws-epa-application-for-2016-diesels

 

[Chalo]

VW withdraws its EPA application for 2016 diesels.
http://www.autonews.com/article/20151007/OEM11/151009850/vw-withdraws-epa-application-for-2016-diesels

I guess the resale value of late model USA market VW diesels just increased.

 

[spinningmagnets]

If you are a long-term investor, and a student of the Graham/Buffet school of investing...the recent 30% loss of stock value might make this the time to buy, IF...you believe VW will survive, and they will bounce back by 2020.

 

[liveforphysics]

If you are a long-term investor, and a student of the Graham/Buffet school of investing...the recent 30% loss of stock value might make this the time to buy, IF...you believe VW will survive, and they will bounce back by 2020.

We are at a tipping point in consumer vehicle demand.

The companies that whole heartedly adopt EV's as there dominate product line have a shot at continued market relevance. The others will exist only in the minds of those who choose to remember the days of stink-poison-mobiles being something people used to have interest in buying or driving.

 

[Lurkin]

Whats your thoughts on hydrogen fuel cell cars? Both electric and hydrogen infrastructure are lacking in Australia for immediate conversion to an alternative.. Toyota has just publicly announced it's hydrogen fuel cell vehicle (although its been brewing for some time and is using the hydrogen fuel cell to generate electricity anyway)...

 

[Hillhater]

Keep in mind also, that VW are a major player in EVs and hybrids.
If they take a big hit , the first thing that will get cut is R&D and new product development !
That won't help the EV programm at all.

 

[Joseph C.]

Whats your thoughts on hydrogen fuel cell cars? Both electric and hydrogen infrastructure are lacking in Australia for immediate conversion to an alternative.. Toyota has just publicly announced it's hydrogen fuel cell vehicle (although its been brewing for some time and is using the hydrogen fuel cell to generate electricity anyway)...

Quick lads - we have another fuel cell advocate here. BURN HIM!!!!!!!

Seriously, when people wise up to how shit fuel cells are, manufacturers won't be able to sell any of them.

• If you go clean (relatively as the delivery vehicles will probably use oil) through hydrolysis - hydrogen only gives you about 20 to 25 per cent of the original energy after all of the losses. With an EV the efficiency is 80 to 90 per cent.
  
  If you use dirty hydrogen from fossil fuels - you produce more CO2 and use more energy in its production than you would have with just using LPG.
  
  Then you have the expense of hydrogen fuelling stations. They are extremely expensive and will remain extremely expensive compared to the cost of EV chargers. They can also take just as long to recharge as current EV chargers as you have to wait half an hour before refuelling if another car has used the station before you.
  
  Hydrogen tanks are extremely expensive - much more expensive than batteries - even the large Model S battery. The tanks also have to be periodically replaced for safety reasons. http://insideevs.com/2016-toyota-mirai-refuel-2029/ The range may decline to 80 or even 70 per cent on EVs in 15 years but you will still be able to drive them without the risk of explosions.
  
  Hydrogen being the lightest element also makes it very hard to contain. If you think a normal fire is dangerous you haven't seen anything yet. And you won't either as hydrogen's flame is invisible.
  
  Fuel cell tanks are kept at extreme pressure (10,000 PSI). Even if they were filled with air if they ruptured they would easily demolish anything in their path. Not very helpful with something that degrades over time. This is a compressed air tank with only a quarter of the pressure.

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No one in their right minds would buy a more expensive fuel cell vehicle with crap charging infrastructure. It's a substantially more dangerous technology (it's even more dangerous than ICEs and they are prone to going on fire the whole time). You pay more to refuel and you inconvenience yourself by having to drive to stations instead of charging at home.

Madness. The only people it makes sense to are oil companies trying to push another type of fossil fuel.