What are your desires for a sub $1k production E-bike?

[recumpence]

Hey Guys,

The title says it all.

If you were looking for a production, turn-key $850-$950 E-bike, what would you want? I want specifics.

Basically, I think there is a HUGE hole in the E-bike market. There are garbage Wally-World E-bikes for $400 and there are high end E-bikes that are thousands of dollars. But, there isn't much in the $1k range. Also, most production E-bikes are either Art-Deco freakin UGLY garbage that many people would not be seen on, or they look like a holdover from the mid 70s moped era. Those that do look like bikes tend to look more like a 1975 ladies 3 speed (yuck!). So, to that end, I want to know what you guys would look for (or want) in a federally legal (though upgradeable) $1k E-bike, I.E. disc brakes, suspension fork, etc.

Matt

 

[neptronix]

My recipe for a bike under $1k that is useable:

17a 350w rear geared hub motor with gears that are a bit overbuilt, capable up to 20mph.
8AH lipo/li-mn 36v pack with a 4amp charger & BMS.

Front disc capable bike, but vbrakes with good pads by default. Cheap front suspension, cheap aluminum frame, rear dropouts that can handle the power. Basically; what most corporate bike stores are selling for under $300.

I built a similar bike with 10ah 36v lipo, 250w cell_man kit, and a $150 used trek bike. It cost me about $800 to do, and that's retail prices, including an expensive iCharger 1010b+. A 4A brick and BMS could cost less.

I believe it can be done for the consumer market if these could be produced in large quantities, and would recommend such a bike to others.

 

[mdd0127]

I don't think a that trying to market something with wheels and a motor at that low of a price is wise for the industry at all. The only way to have any kind of product at that price would be to source absolutely everything out to the nastiest factory in China. A thousand dollars isn't much anymore. Sorry. If people want something reliable and fun with wheels in the future, they're going to have to save up. That's all there is to it. Putting a $1000 bike out there will just make electrics continue to look bad. Try to go get a decent pedal bike for $1,000. You'll have maybe one or two choices in the bike stores and they'll look just like walmart bikes....because they're made by the same folks in the same factories.

Lets face it, industrial manufacturing needs to be cleaned up drastically. Not only the environmental side of things, but the trade balance side of things as well. This isn't going to happen by continuing to sell the cheapest to the mostest of the dumbest........Going through the steps to put another product out there that will probably be disposable, due to the cheap components it will be necessary to use to hit that price point, will ultimately waste more resources without profiting anyone much, continue to support the cheap electric bike stereotype, and worst of all, make the market even more confusing for consumers, causing new manufacturers that are selling a more sustainably produced product at a justifiably higher price to have a harder time reaching potential customers.

So what features would I like my sub $1k electric bike to have:
Invisible frame, holographic wheels, and an imaginary motor.

Just my 2 cents.

 

[neptronix]

What's more important, sustainable, eco-friendly, domestic production of said bike at the cost of cutting out the low end market entirely and giving it to the Chinese or...

Getting more people on electric bikes and drastically reducing our demand on foreign oil, reducing our pollution, and getting people some excersize in the process.

I'll take the latter at the expense of #1 because #1 is not going to happen in this current economic, environmental, and political climate.

If all you have for sale is something that is the cost of an optibike, picycle, etc ( while still using Chinese parts !!!! ) the eBike revolution will not happen anytime soon.

This is why Currie exists; there is a big market for those kinds of bikes. Someone needs to swoop in on that segment.

 

[vanilla ice]

Currie made a $250 bike that a lot of people liked just fine.. you're saying a $1000 bike isn't doable?? I dont think people buying the ezip expected a $1000 bike. And people spending $1000 for this won't be expecting a $2500 bike..

 

[AppleTown]

I don't think a that trying to market something with wheels and a motor at that low of a price is wise for the industry at all. The only way to have any kind of product at that price would be to source absolutely everything out to the nastiest factory in China. A thousand dollars isn't much anymore. Sorry. If people want something reliable and fun with wheels in the future, they're going to have to save up. That's all there is to it. Putting a $1000 bike out there will just make electrics continue to look bad. Try to go get a decent pedal bike for $1,000. You'll have maybe one or two choices in the bike stores and they'll look just like walmart bikes....because they're made by the same folks in the same factories.

Lets face it, industrial manufacturing needs to be cleaned up drastically. Not only the environmental side of things, but the trade balance side of things as well. This isn't going to happen by continuing to sell the cheapest to the mostest of the dumbest........Going through the steps to put another product out there that will probably be disposable, due to the cheap components it will be necessary to use to hit that price point, will ultimately waste more resources without profiting anyone much, continue to support the cheap electric bike stereotype, and worst of all, make the market even more confusing for consumers, causing new manufacturers that are selling a more sustainably produced product at a justifiably higher price to have a harder time reaching potential customers.

So what features would I like my sub $1k electric bike to have:
Invisible frame, holographic wheels, and an imaginary motor.

Just my 2 cents.

I disagree with you on several counts.

First, $1K is a max and $500-$750 is a more realistic number for a bike like the one under discussion. Its got to get under the price of a decent gas scooter and not double the price of a bicycle that most people would buy. Its going to be compared to both. Lots of i-eZips were sold at sub $500 for a reason. I don't think they gave ebikes a bad name because the technology (loud motors and heavy batteries) was behind the curve. I haven't heard loud complaints that they literally fell apart. Mostly, like most bikes, they were ridden much less than the buyer ever thought/hoped they would ride them and they've gotten dusty sitting in garages.

Second, bicycle prices have jumped quite a bit in the just the last year to year and a half. Unfortunately, too many bicyclists have bought into the idea that they have to pay $1000 plus to turn the cranks. I call bullshit on the idea for several reasons. First, many very pricey bikes are made in China and the costs to buyers have not decreased as labor costs were decreased. Why is a high end Cannondale from China the same, or more, than what one made in the US sold for less than a decade ago? Second, bicycle technology has improved, but those improvements aren't really necessary for everyone. An affordable electric bike doesn't need to be high end to be useful, reliable and attractive. Finally, I've owned a real range of bikes over the last couple decades from those purchased at Walmart to those from high end local bike shops. Walmart bikes today are surperior to those sold for inflation corrected similar prices 10 or 20 years ago. They're lighter, have better shifters, better brakes and nicer tires. Sure, high end bikes have also gotten better over time, but that doesn't mean lower end bikes are somehow unrideable.

I do agree with you that industrial manufacturing needs sorely to be cleaned up. But I defy anyone who thinks that goods would be unaffordable with clean manufacturing. Industry generally doesn't even try.

 

[Gregory]

I'd expect not much for $800.
But that would just be the base model, right?

The normal way to market seems to be:
Base model with basic brakes, less range, lower power, lower spec'd components. i.e the cheapie starter package
Mid range model with better forks, brakes.
Top line model with all the options thrown on.
Then suck the customer in with the cheap advertised model and offer upgrades as options and try to upsell the customer. Hopefully target the mid range model to sell the best.

I think all the things I'd like (like integrated LED headlight) would be too expensive for a sub $1000 bike while still making a profit.

 

[MadRhino]

What I see for such a price, is a 2 speed (2 chain rings and single rear) cruiser with a gear hub. No suspension, comfy spring seat and fat street tires.

Mens model with battery space on the top tube, bigger than this one, in the same style... To keep it neat and stealth.

Girly model could have a front basket with battery space managed in the bottom of it, or the same kind of bigger top tube as the men's...

 

[fizzit]

I think that a really sturdy, upgradeable (1 1/8" headset) MTB frame with disc brakes or at least disc brake tabs would be great. And then some sort of chain drive, probably a mid drive, would be really great. The motor wouldn't need to be hugely powerful, but if you made it brushless with halls, people could overvolt it or put in their own motor. The drive system components should be simple, not hard to repair or swap. The battery and controller setup should also be simple and easy to repair. Modular battery packs would be great, but it seems like the batteries would be the trickiest part, with BMS's and all. A decent brushless controller (overvoltable) would be good too.

You should focus on it being easy to repair and maintain, and being sturdy and reliable! Less blinky lights and fancy things where the controller and batteries are in the frame and everything is a proprietary system

 

[Hillhater]

Matt,
As you will have realised by now, you are going to get a 1000 different opinions on what is required.
One (or even 5) bike models wont suit all customers
Personally, i think the Chinese have got that market sector (<$1k Ebike) all sown up with hundreds of choices already available,... some of them good value , quality, products.
My view is target the DIY retro fit market with a COMPLETE kit (batteries optional ?) that adapts & fits easily to a wide range of bikes.
That way , your market includes all those potential customers who already have a bike, as well as those who have odd tastes on two wheels ! ....and your inventory is dramatically reduced.

 

[recumpence]

Thanks for the replies.

Here is what we are thinking;

Mountainbike with suspension fork and disc brake up front. Complete Bafang hub motor kit.

The first bike would be relatively basic, but will look nice with decent (not Walmart quality) components. The bike would be a realistic mountainbike that will not fall apart as soon as dirt is under the tires. Yes, a range of bikes would be offered with upgrades available. We could, also, do a full-on high-end bike with my RC drive (or similar) and high-end components.

Bear in mind, this question is not regarding building a few bikes in a garage. We are talking about production of hundreds to thousands of bikes at a time. This is not something set in stone. Heck, it is just an idea I am kicking around with one other man I know. He has a large facility for his other business, capital and some connections and I have knowledge and some different connections. Between us, this could work. However, this is just "Napkin Sketch" and "Let's talk over lunch" stage at this point.

I am doing preliminary research and reporting my findings.

Matt

Oh, the reason I asked about this price point is because $1,000 is a bit intimidating for a non-cycling individual. So, staying under that is important to initiate the E-uneducated. Also, I am appalled at the freaking UGLY garbage being peddled (pun intended :wink: ) to the public in the E-bike arena.

 

[Uncle Ron]

recompense,

If they survive, the Prodeco line pretty much does it for me already, as has already been discussed several times here. Not that they couldn't have some competition:

http://www.prodecotech.com/

 

[Jethro56]

I think what we need is a good full suspension disc ready framekit. This frame would have an area that would hold up to 20Ah 48V pings. Maybe Ping would make a special narrow pack that would be the same dimensions of the turnigys in a 2 rows of four say 115mm X 230 mm X whatever height for a BMS. The frame mfg would supply a nice removable enclosure. The frame would have well designed bullet proof dropouts front and rear. The rest of the componets would fall to the decision of the owner. Any ready to ride bike has too many legal restrictions to serve a global market.

 

[neptronix]

My view is target the DIY retro fit market with a COMPLETE kit (batteries optional ?) that adapts & fits easily to a wide range of bikes.

ampedbikes, ebikekit, $150 cell_man kit anyone...

 

[torker]

I know a decent full suss. is probably asking too much but it would be so nice. At least 10 ah Lifepo with room to double that. Room for 3 inch tires. If running a hub- integrated torque arms. If running a mid-drive an internally geared hub.

 

[Ykick]

I know a decent full suss. is probably asking too much...

It is! Real suspension components employing oil/air, dampening, rebound, etc. cost a lot of money. You can easily drop $1k on forks and good shock. You really need it with speedster bikes unless you have extremely smooth roads.

Braking is another thing that can cost a nice chunk of money and once again you need that quality with speedier ebikes. Under 20mph stuff can be okay with fat tires, decent brakes and simple driveline. 25-30mph or higher Is where it gets expensive really fast.

 

[AppleTown]

I know a decent full suss. is probably asking too much...

It is! Real suspension components employing oil/air, dampening, rebound, etc. cost a lot of money. You can easily drop $1k on forks and good shock. You really need it with speedster bikes unless you have extremely smooth roads.

Braking is another thing that can cost a nice chunk of money and once again you need that quality with speedier ebikes. Under 20mph stuff can be okay with fat tires, decent brakes and simple driveline. 25-30mph or higher Is where it gets expensive really fast.

Full suspension is actually doable for a 25mph or lower bike, which is what this thread is really about.

Consider the Dawes Roundhouse 2500 from BikesDirect for $500 shipped. Its got a real RockShox front suspension, some genuine Shimano Deore components and decent disk brakes. Its not the best suspension out there if you've got money to blow, but its still a significant step up from Walmart-bike full suspension bikes in the $200-$350 range and things you'd see at sporting goods stores from makers like Diamondback in the $400-$600 range. Its got better components than a Cannondale Trail 6 front suspension only bike you'd find for a similar price at the local bike shop.

Slightly less quality, though still decent Shimano components and a better than Walmart front shock, can be had on full suspension BikesDirect models for under $400.

http://www.bikesdirect.com/products/dawes/rh_25.htm

 

[Hillhater]

I am struggling here to figure how a "turnkey" Ebike can be done for $1k .
I wouldnt consider anything without LiPo / Lifepo4 battery, 36v 15 Ahr minimum ...so that has to be $4-500 of the package alone. Putting together a quality motor, controller , charger AND a half decent bike for the remaining $5-600 , just seems unrealistic ?? :?

But that Prodeco does have me wondering ?

 

[recumpence]

Remember, when purchasing in huge quantities, the cost goes way down.

Matt

 

[John in CR]

For $1k I expect something like an A2B, and if Best Buy is selling them for $2k+ in the early days, rest assured that it won't be long before the price is below $1k, just like it's always worked with consumer electronics. You're looking at a sub $100 motor, sub $30 controller, maybe $150 in batteries, and a sub $300 bike, so $1k would be a fair price in mass production. Then the $1499 model can be the one with the upgraded front and rear suspension with an extra range batt pack.

Cyclists are blinded by the larcenous practices of bike manufacturers, so their view of what is reasonably expected in a $1k bike is distorted. If they want to spend thousands on their bikes electric or not, that's their choice, but don't force that pricing structure on the rest of the world.

 

[kold kanuck]

My wish list would include, battery mounted in or on the frame(not hanging off the back of the seat post), dummy proof charging, good brakes, decent suspension(light duty trail riding would be nice) and if i could be greedy a good set of fenders. Weather around here is a little sporadic, so i'd like fenders

 

[mabman]

Remember, when purchasing in huge quantities, the cost goes way down.

Matt

Don't forget to factor in operating costs which are going up all the time no matter what quantity you are projecting. Also if you plan on selling through a dealer network they will want at least a 30% margin and need to be spoonfed support. If you are selling online it costs alot to send a bike these days and sending one with a Li type battery adds to the cost further thinning the margin of profit.

I hope you can pull something out of the hat though because there is a need developing and I don't see the right sales tool out there yet.

 

[joe tomten]

Matt,

Of the bikes I've converted* the full suspension mongoose blackcomb with 350wattgearedhub (rear) on a 22 amp controller @16s life is the one that I'd find most applicability to those people that I think would be interested in spending $1k on an elect bike. It is the one I lend out to friends who have expressed interest in ebiking.

Having a swept back seat post (option) for a little crank forwardly action and bmx handle bars for a little more uprightiousness also helps many. I did this to a mountain frame for a friends conversion and the geometry was a real improvement for his daily commuting comfort. No numb hands.

My daily commuter is an old alumn. frame cannondale mtn hardtail - aggressive lean forward geometry, consistant 30mph on the flats with 20s life. It;s fun and fast. But sometimes just poking along at 22mph on the blackcomb lazing over the crappy roads is plenty comfortable and enjoyable. Especially in crappy weather. Slowest bike I have, & still good for commuting.

$300 suspension equipment would be really nice - but the blackcomb set up is plenty decent for the $1k crowd. No amount of fat low pressure tires will provide the comfort and assurance of the cheap (but not crappy) suspension when encountering turbulence at speed.


Joe

* converts so far
- mtb commuter (described above) rear xlyte406, 2.6in hookworms run fairly squishy.
- a bmx (2805 9c rear, 16s life)
- 60's vintage tandem cruiser (9c 2807 front) this really benefits from bmx handle bars at both stations, more comfortable upright position. tagalong attached makes it the inline tricycle kid hauler.
- the blackcomb - 350watt rear geared hub 22amp 16s life, battery mounted on an axiom rear fs rack
- electra townie xtracycle (2807 9C rear) (in process)
- Giant mtb hardtail 350watt rear geared hub 22amp 16s life, bmx handlebars, sweptback seatpost.

 

[lianjuin]

Parts cost + assembly is only a portion of final retail product.
$1000 retail Li e-bike is not easy but possible and need much service.
No way to build a brand or platform to develop on.
There is a balance, either extreme is no good.

 

[gestalt]

I think a quality "around $1000" ebike could be possible but some things need to change in the way we utilize bike parts in the build. You end up spending hundreds on some nice disk brakes, but on the otherhand I have a rear disk brake system for a pitbike that cost me $50 shipped. It has pads twice as thick and wide, a very burly rotor and is hydraulic with woven steel cased lines. The only problem is that my wheel doesn't accept the rotor and the mounts for the caliper as well. Custom work needs to be done to make it all mesh driving the price up. But imagine you have a hub and frame designed for these kinds of parts, cost back down again. Same with suspension, lighting and a host of other things that there is a source for hevier duty, more affordable parts. What John in cr touched on about bike manufactures is quite correct and we are getting ripped off by bike makers.

Just design a frame to use these parts and build it from there. It seems like it's a job for a heavy duty steel mountain bike with front suspension.