What do you do for cheap heating ?

[jag]

Lots of good tips in this thread from using heat blankets and insulating the house to the more unconventional. Good to see there are many like minded.

A helpful tool to find heat loss is an IR thermometer. These are nowdays relatively inexpensive. I bought mine for $30. Certainly less expensive than an IR camera used by professional energy auditors. With the IR thermometer I quickly found the two main heat losses in my house. A part of the wall near the (outside) chimney was completely uninsulated, presumably to provide some clear space to the potentially hot chimney. I added an inside wall with insulation. The second culprit was my front door that opens directly to the living room. I cut out a door shape from a 4x8 sheet of 1.5" rigid foam and added between the door and the storm door. Problem solved and door as well insulated as the wall nearby.

 

[deronmoped]

Problem with sealing a house up super good is there is not enough air changes to keep the indoor air good. I have a couple of vents that stay open all the time just to make sure I get good clean air into the house.

Heat the house with solar. A few panels on the roof to collect the Suns heat and then I circulate the hot water through a slab in the downstairs and also in the ceiling. The downstairs is surrounded by dirt on three sides so those three walls and the floor never get below sixty five. Attic fan that comes on when the attic reaches eighty degrees and then blows the warm air into the house. I close the doors to the rooms that I'm not using. Everything is insulated, double pane windows, drapes. Have not had to use the heater in years.

Deron.

 

[dogman dan]

Sounds like the ideal earthship you have there Deron.

I like the door insulation idea Jag! That was brilliant. I did something similar, but in a different way. I had a small porch on the front, so I glassed it in with cheap plastic panels used normaly in flouescent lights, and along with a glass storm door turned that cold spot into another solar heater. So now a front door and a kitchen window never see temps below freezing anymore.

The solar thermal collectors spinningmagnets posted a pic of are pretty similar to the ones I put on my south wall. I used corrugated roof panel instead of cans. On a sunny day, they really work well.

 

[PedalingBiped]

Heating is an exponential thing. It's easy to heat to about 15 degrees over ambient. At 20 degrees the requirements double.

I have a well insulated house, the electric company came out and made sure it was well sealed. I use oil portable heaters in 2 living areas. I crack the door to one area to help heat the house. With the outside temp 25 the inside of the non habitable areas are 40.
The hot water tank is off. I turn it on about an hour before I need it. water stays warm for days.

I really like the idea of pulling attic air down. gonna have to do it.
I would think it more efficient to use inside air as the feed.

In the summer with the water heater off for long periods and no heat used, my electric bill is $20. That is what my long term goal is to reach during the winter.

 

[jag]

Problem with sealing a house up super good is there is not enough air changes to keep the indoor air good. I have a couple of vents that stay open all the time just to make sure I get good clean air into the house.

Yes, once the house is weatherproofed ventilation is needed. My house is 70 years old, and when I bought it had plenty of "natural" ventilation. As I've sealed this up (with window and door seals, chaulked around windows, non-permeable vapor barrier primer paint etc.) , this natural air movement has stopped. Now we have to take out the baby diapers immediately or the smell will stay in the house.

Conceptual problem is that I can just not get over that if I start installing and keeping vents open, I'm essentially undoing the sealing work I worked so hard and carefully on.

A heat exchanger ventilation is of course the answer. The only ones I've seen in home centres cost $500 - $1000, yet look very primitive. Just a fan and the heat echanging element is simply the same corrugated plastic material used for lawn signs during elections. (I've saved a stack of signs to experiment with). This is far short of the sophistication of heat exchangers one sees on web pages aimed for industry (which often uses stacks of tubes twisted together into a tight spiral)

I wanted to find descriptions for DIY home heat exchangers of a size suitable to replace a bathroom fan, or single vent. (not a whole house). But i didn't find anything compelling using google.

One thought I had was to get some of the rectangular heating duct used in 4x8 walls, and put two on top of each other. Run warm air out through one, and the other, in contact with the first, would heat up cold air in. The whole thing could be put in the attic, where I have several feet to go between the bathroom and the outside wall anyway.

There are some design considerations with this. Will say several feet of contact provide enough surface area for efficient heat transfer? How does one calculate heat transfer given surface area, temp difference and air speed?

Would 2-3 computer fans each for warm air out and cold air in suffice? (A 120mm computer fan moves 50-100ft^3/min I think, but that is with no pressure difference. I diagram with airflow vs pressure difference would be useful.) Most heating systems are equalizing pressure in the basement (with an opening in the furnace, or duct to the outside on the furnace return air). This means there is a positive pressure inside on higher floors proportional to the inside-outside temp difference.

Another issue is condensation. One tidbit I learned on the internet is to make sure out air does not go below freezing inside the ducts, or condensation will result. One can instead allow some mixing of out air with fresh air just outside the vent e.g. by having the out air go out just below the in air, so the warm air raises. This will cause condensation outside, and locally warm the in-air somewhat in the process, at the (very minor) expense of drawing back in a fraction of the stale air.

If all this would work a heat exchanger could be built for $10-20 in metal ducts and fans can often be scrounged fro free (or $2-5 each at sales)

 

[PedalingBiped]

If all this would work a heat exchanger could be built for $10-20 in metal ducts and fans can often be scrounged fro free (or $2-5 each at sales)

Search for "beer can solar heater" on youtube.
You could probably turn one of them into a heat exchanger.

here's one; http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Jzxw1j-dzY4&playnext=1&list=PL1100BC2BCCB98F65&index=27

 

[dogman dan]

You might look into something that pulls daytime air into the house by convection after solar heating. My solar wall works like this. A vent at the top of the panel lets hot air into the house, and another at the bottom lets house air into the panel. Once the panel heats up, I uncover the vents and convection begins. At night, the vents get covered. But if the panel had a vent to outside on the bottom, then hot air would enter the house to replace warm air leaving through your vents, most likely in the form of leakage through whatever hasn't been sealed so good, like bathroom fans, and dryer vents.

You could have the hot air collector rigged with a fan and thermostat, so a fan would blow even more cfm than convection, or to blow it down from the roof if that is where the panel must be located.

That way, even though you do lose some heat by ventilating a tiny bit, you at least have the new air warmed a bit for free some of the time. Most of the time where I live. 8)

Another house ventilating trick I use is the clothes dryer. Yeah I know, baaaaad, but needed for me so I don't have allergens on my duds. So in winter I switch the vent so the dryer blows winter ventilation into the house from it's location in the garage. So the heat I waste drying clothes heats, and ventilates the house. Only about one day a week though, with no kids.

 

[dnmun]

i have used the oil filled radiators with the clothes drying rack mounted on top as a dryer a few times. with the rack set right on top of the heater.

use a small fan to blow through both of them and circulate in the room at the same time.

if you need the soft touch of having the clothes tumbled in the dryer then you can put them in the dryer for the last few minutes.

for regular hot water wash here, it is a bout 4 cents for the hot, 5 cents for the water, then $2-4 for the dryer depending on weight and fabric type.

it usually takes me days to dry my jeans in the winter on the clothes rack in the basement where there is no heat. but if i dry them overnight in the cold basement, i can then bake them on the woodstove in my shed where i live, as the fire dies down, steaming in a few minutes, but i don't have room here for the clothes drying rack. i heat my shed with a small woodstove i got for $20 on CL. i find free wood all the time, biggest problem is managing it, moving cutting splitting, free is a big hassle but free is free.

 

[Arlo1]

Depends on the area and type of building you need to stay warm in. I have 3 heat dishes I face the job I work on and I dress warm. My shop is >3600 sq feet with 20 foot cement walls and a non insulated cealing!!!!! Its typicaly 0 deg c or 32 deg f the last couple weeks and normaly I dont need to be working much in the winter but I keep getting buisier with my buisness so I will be looking at somethign else next year! We tried a 75 000 btu karosene space heater last week but it took 3 hours to go from 0-6 deg on the far end of the shop!!!

I like the idea of the heat dish because your body or what you point it at gets the energy rather then forced air heat that just floats to the cealing.

My boss has a boiler out side the back of his shop we stuff with wood and burn then it pumps water in the shop to a old catipiler radatior and we put a fan blowing through the rad and it heats his shop nice and the fire hazard is extreamly low!!

 

[TylerDurden]

I like the idea of the heat dish because your body or what you point it at gets the energy rather then forced air heat that just floats to the cealing.

Radiant heat FTW.

 

[jag]

You might look into something that pulls daytime air into the house by convection after solar heating.
<snip>
Another house ventilating trick I use is the clothes dryer. Yeah I know, baaaaad, but needed for me so I don't have allergens on my duds. So in winter I switch the vent so the dryer blows winter ventilation into the house from it's location in the garage. So the heat I waste drying clothes heats, and ventilates the house. Only about one day a week though, with no kids.

I've been thinking about venting the clothes dryer. Though to get any use out of it I would have to plumb it into the house heating ducts, and I'm afraid of introducing extra lint. Would have to set up a separate air filter box.

Solar is going to be difficult in Edmonton. Dec and Jan the sun only rises about 15 degrees above the horizon.

 

[dogman dan]

Yeah, solar heat from thermal collectors is for us southerners. Mine works crappy enough in the month of january even here on the mexican border. It loses all ability to raise the temp of the house for about 6 weeks. But early fall and late spring, I don't run any additional heat.

I'd love to have the money to build a proper house, instead of a generic wood frame R 11 wall. I built a lot of better ones for various rich folks over the years. The traditional adobe house is fantastic if you foam the outside of the exterior walls before the stucco. End up with enough thermal mass to hold hot or cool temps for a few weeks instead of a few hours. Radiant floor is the way to heat if you have money and are building.

 

[jmygann]

My latest low cost design is to have a metal building with spray foam on the outside only.

 

[dnmun]

exposed foam is illegal, also a huge fire hazard. always manage the fire risk with foam by using sheetrock, always, and cover all penetrations with fire block. plus it breaks down rapidly when exposed to sunlight.

 

[jmygann]

Not illegal where I am at . Used on roofs regularly ... final coat is uv protected.

http://www.appuno.net/blog/eg/?page_id=66

http://www.sprayfoam.com/vmps/videolisting.cfm?vdoid=57

 

[dogman dan]

Depends on the foam. Polyisocaynouranate foam, the spray kind is not that flamable. Styrofoam is hugely flamable. The latex paint used on the roof spray foams is flamable, but a LOT harder to ignite than any tar product. They use lots of styrofoam on houses, but usually on the exterior, and then it's stucco covered. The pic above looks to me like one of those foam block systems, where often the foam is hollow and poured full of concrete with rebar for structural support, then stuccoed. In this example, you can see where they used spray foam like mortar to set the styrofoam blocks. Great building sytems those foam wall deals, but so often the builder doesn't put thermal mass inside, other than the sheetrock.

There is nothing at all to be gained though, by putting the foam on the outside of the metal. The best bet would be materials like masonary, concrete or adobe used insid the thermal envelope. That way you can store heat from the warm day for a week, or coolness the same way in summer. The metal walls are fine for exterior, but need lots of insulation inside. Then inside the building, some brick interior walls, or even sheet rock walls with brick rubble or rocks dropped in could provide the thermal mass.

 

[PedalingBiped]

When visiting my snow bird parents down in Deming, NM, right next to Dogman, I went on a walk with my dad.

We came across a man working on his trailer and started talking with him and he showed us around.

He took shredded paper from the bank. soaked it in water overnite. Added to a concrete mixer with a little cement. Poured it out into form laying on the dirt, made of metal studs and let it dry a couple of days. He then picked it up, it was like Styrofoam, and screw it to the walls of his trailer. When a section was done he stuccoed over it.
It looked very nice.

 

[dingoEsride]

Wood stove baby! Stoke it up! I cut up old pallets and dead tree limbs and grapevines for firewood, but it doesn't get that cold here either.

Yeah, same or I mean little pittsburg pot belly, wood is usually available being a chippy, but it's middle of summer in aus and we've had a few over the ton days recently and down to about 41f in winter

 

[montyp]

I have started a grow operation in my basement.

Given the cost of locally grown organic vegetables, the thing has pretty much paid for itself. Plus it cleans the air.
I keep it totally legal - tomatoes, beans, peas, lettuce, potatoes, beats, spices

The heat from the lights for the indoor garden heats the house. At this point only about 10% of my heat is generated this way. I am definitely looking to expand. Too many projects too little time

 

[dnmun]

when there is too much heat in the room from heating of lights or stoves then you could use an air to water heat exchanger, then use a small fan to blow room air through the heat exchanger, and another small circulating pump that can pump cold water from storage and return it to the hot water service storage.

the biggest problem with any energy conservation is the capital costs amortized against the savings in energy consumption.

by living so low on the totem pole, my energy consumption is already so low it doesn't justify committing capital to PV or even solar hot water here. my bosch boiler is so much more efficient than the electric heat, the $18/mth cost of heating water does not justify $12k for a solar system that works maybe 30% of the time.

fuel costs have tripled in a decade though, that's where the recovery will have to be.

EVs and the development of a charging network like the wifi cloud is now will be central to local commuting, and CNG for long distance travel and for the large truck fleet.

 

[Arlo1]

when there is too much heat in the room from heating of lights or stoves then you could use an air to water heat exchanger, then use a small fan to blow room air through the heat exchanger, and another small circulating pump that can pump cold water from storage and return it to the hot water service storage.

the biggest problem with any energy conservation is the capital costs amortized against the savings in energy consumption.

by living so low on the totem pole, my energy consumption is already so low it doesn't justify committing capital to PV or even solar hot water here. my bosch boiler is so much more efficient than the electric heat, the $18/mth cost of heating water does not justify $12k for a solar system that works maybe 30% of the time.

fuel costs have tripled in a decade though, that's where the recovery will have to be.

EVs and the development of a charging network like the wifi cloud is now will be central to local commuting, and CNG for long distance travel and for the large truck fleet.

the air to water extanger is what my boss uses Just burn wood out side to heat the water!!!

 

[dumbass]

Going back maybe 20 years ago my brother built a 3/4" copper tube heat exchanger and mounted it in his free standing fireplace (it was really more like a really big wood stove). He installed a second AC coil in his furnance and circulated water from the fireplace to the AV coil (of course he had an expansion tank in the system). When the system was in use he ran the furance blower continously on low speed. For the most part this crazy setup actually heated his whole house. The fireplace was located in his basement recreation room and therefore, was close to the furnance making the pipe runs short and easy to install and hide. Only thing he did wrong on the first test is to turn off the water pump before the fire had totally cooled. OPPs, the solder melted in the exchanger and leaked into the fireplace and out onto the floor. But he was able to resolder everything and all was well again. From what I remember he used this setup for many years but only when he was at home to safely care for it. But when he went out he would set the temp on the furnance down anyway.

Bob

 

[Evoforce]

Wow, all he needed to add to his system was a thermostat to control the pump.

 

[dumbass]

Wow, all he needed to add to his system was a thermostat to control the pump.

He actually did but there is always a problem with hot spots in the exchanger. The biggest problem is the thermo couple for the thermostat has to be located inside the fireplace. I think he eventually monitored the temp of the fire/coals and assumed if they were at X the pump needed to run. He also used a 3 speed pump. He had his own small heating/AC company so parts were available and it was more for fun then anything else (gave his son something to do and kept him off the street...LOL).

Bob

 

[wineboyrider]

Dogman wrote:The traditional adobe house is fantastic if you foam the outside of the exterior walls before the stucco. End up with enough thermal mass to hold hot or cool temps for a few weeks instead of a few hours.

My parents adobe house, which used to belong to my Grandparents is an old adobe stronghold that was built literally to defend against the Apache Indians. It has 26 inch thick walls and you want to talk about thermal mass?! It doesn't have insulation on the outside like you suggested,but the house is extremely energy efficient in our New Mexico climate. The walls radiate heat collected all day from the sun (even on cold days here in NM the sun shines) and in summer the high ceilings take it forever to radiate heat into the house. My parents heat the entire 2000 square foot home with one small gas space heater on the inside wall and it's all they will ever need. The interior walls being 26 inches thick and all adsorb heat and radiate it throughout the entire house!