Xiongda 2-speed motor

[d8veh]

It would be stupid to skip the PAS function. That's the best thing about the control system. I guess you've not used one before.

The LCD has 6 levels, each one gives a different current when you pedal. Level 0 gives no power with PAS or throttle. Level 1 about 60w, level 2 about 130w, 3 about 230w 4 about 350w and 5 gives maximum up to about 750w. Go up one more level and the display changes to "L", the motor reverses and the winch is engaged with maximum power, which you get at speeds up to about 5 mph, then the back emf starts to reduce the current, so you typically see 350w to 600w when climbing depending on how fast you're going.

When you use the throttle, without PAS, it works normally, except on level zero, when you get zero power.

Here's the battery I use:

https://bmsbattery.com/ebike-battery/684-48v116ah-bottle-09-panasonic-battery-charger-battery.html

Respectfully disagree on PAS. Don't want it, don't need it. Unneeded complexity IMO. My app will be on a tandem recumbent, and the Captain will command the throttle. You disagree, but don't think it makes either of us stupid. Many thanks for the battery info though. Again admitting my ignorance, how do you get 52 volts out of it?

You need to trust me on the PAS. I don't understand what you mean by complexity. It's 5 minutes work to fit the sensor and one connector to connect. That small amount of work will pay dividends. I've never met anybody that tried this sort of system and then decided he didn't want or need it, and, in my experience, most people that say that they don't want or need it, never tried it. Xiongda give you the Pedal sensor in the kit, so there's nothing extra to pay.

52v is easy. A 48v battery charges to 54v, so just charge it up and switch on.

 

[bigoilbob]

"52v is easy. A 48v battery charges to 54v, so just charge it up and switch on."

Thanks for that, and good to know. Will the extra volts stay with the battery for any period of time, or is it transient? And do they provide anything like a proportionate increase in kwh stored?

 

[Jon NCal]

I was thinking of getting the model with the manual H/A/L switch, or is it better to get the one with switching through the screen?

 

[d8veh]

A 48v li-ion battery (not LiFePO4 ) charges to 54v. When you start using it, it quickly drops to about 52v, then goes down linearly and proportionally to about 43v, then it will accelerate downwards. A LiFePO4 charges to 58.4v and drops immediately to 53v, then goes down linearly and proportionally to about 48v, where it starts to accelerate downwards.

 

[d8veh]

I was thinking of getting the model with the manual H/A/L switch, or is it better to get the one with switching through the screen?

I'm not sure that they do that anymore. You'll have to ask them and let us know. It might mean using an old specification controller.

 

[bigoilbob]

A 48v li-ion battery (not LiFePO4 ) charges to 54v. When you start using it, it quickly drops to about 52v, then goes down linearly and proportionally to about 43v, then it will accelerate downwards. A LiFePO4 charges to 58.4v and drops immediately to 53v, then goes down linearly and proportionally to about 48v, where it starts to accelerate downwards.

Never thanked you for this battery info. I ordered my 100mm wide, 48 volt, front hub from Xiongda last week. I will get it laced to a 16"wheel. Here's the battery I ordered with it

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B011GH8HPA?psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o01_s00

I should have asked you first, but what do you think? Will I regret not spending more for a 4 amp charger? I could've bought domestic for about $150 more, but in the fora there were opinions that neither quality, nor delivery time was any better. The only real "improvement" was the higher rated charger.

FYI, I'm replacing a Staton 35cc Honda system now on the back of my Bikee E2 tandem recumbent. I run a NuVinci 171 hub with Developer's Kit, and I modestly believe that I'm the only guy who's ever made this work. The others either overtorqued, or couldn't get the shifter to work, or both. The secret is (1) doing the arithmetic on gearbox ratios, sprocket ratios and engine torque to approach, but not exceed max torque, and (2) plenty of well conditioned 12+ volt power to the auto shifter. I had to build a charge/store system from the ground up, and integrate it into my drive train. It is the assembly I'm most proud of. I like the hill climbing ability, but my wife wants quiet, and I see her point....

 

[slowhands]

The motor section could be made a larger diameter. The Stromer motor and the BionX both place the controller in the center of the hub. Give me enough money and I could make it happen...

You can see this. I can see this. But Xiongda can't. Conservative. Is there an adventurous company that might attempt the new motor architecture?

[moderator edit to fix quote]

 

[kurtster]

Greetings from first-time poster. I was bitten by the e-bike bug a few weeks ago, and after reading up on many makes and models, decided (for now) on getting the Xiongda.

I was thinking of getting the model with the manual H/A/L switch, or is it better to get the one with switching through the screen?

I'm not sure that they do that anymore. You'll have to ask them and let us know. It might mean using an old specification controller.

Regarding the H/A/L, the company rep, Bonnie, wrote the following to me today...

please notice that we offer two versions of control system now.
version one: with the H/A/L switch, change gears between high and low gears manually or leave it automatically.
version two: without the H/A/L switch, use button on display to change between normal speed to low gear, auto mode can turn on and shut down in settings.
let me know which version you prefer.

My 64km (40 mile) round-trip commute is mostly flat, except for the odd overpass and smallish hill, but with a LOT of traffic lights. I'm thinking of getting the 48V model for the higher top speed. For mostly flat riding, would the automatic gear change be useful for all the stopping and going at traffic lights?

 

[d8veh]

I don't have the HAL switch anymore. I don't miss it. but I don't do a lot of stop/starts. With the KT controller, you can still select low gear manually , but only if you're already in level 5 PAS. I only use the low gear for very steep hills. The rest of the time I just leave it in high gear, in which the motor starts in all power levels, though it doesn't feel so happy starting in level 5 or full throttle. I still do it though and no harm seems to be done. Now up to 4000 miles.

 

[markz]

How would you compare this motor to lets say a GNG mid-drive, in terms of hill climbing ability.

 

[d8veh]

Which GNG. They make several.

You can figure it out yourself. A crank-drive will have approximately the same effiiency when climbing, so it's just a matter of how much power you have. The Xiongda is 48v 15A. The GNG gen 1 and gen 2 ard 22A so more powerful. They have more powerful versions.

The Xiongda is silent, while as the GNGs are quite noisy.

Wat exacyly do you want to know?

 

[slowhands]

Greetings from first-time poster. I was bitten by the e-bike bug a few weeks ago, and after reading up on many makes and models, decided (for now) on getting the Xiongda.

I was thinking of getting the model with the manual H/A/L switch, or is it better to get the one with switching through the screen?

I'm not sure that they do that anymore. You'll have to ask them and let us know. It might mean using an old specification controller.

Regarding the H/A/L, the company rep, Bonnie, wrote the following to me today...

please notice that we offer two versions of control system now.
version one: with the H/A/L switch, change gears between high and low gears manually or leave it automatically.
version two: without the H/A/L switch, use button on display to change between normal speed to low gear, auto mode can turn on and shut down in settings.
let me know which version you prefer.

My 64km (40 mile) round-trip commute is mostly flat, except for the odd overpass and smallish hill, but with a LOT of traffic lights. I'm thinking of getting the 48V model for the higher top speed. For mostly flat riding, would the automatic gear change be useful for all the stopping and going at traffic lights?

I don't have the Xiongda; it's fascinating, but I'll probably wait until they solve the self destruct on rollback problem. I would guess the H/A/L switch would be my choice, to have control manually and yet retain A mode. But I bet I would leave it in A most of the time.

Trek makes a bike called the Lime with automatic 3 speed shifter (not an electric bike). It has a little generator that you power, which drives a computer and 3 speed gear shifter in the hub. Trek's Lime has not caught on, and I don't know why. I would think people who fumble with downshifting near a stop, then struggle on starting would love it.

But I sure would not mind an automatic shifter, if I could defeat it when I wanted to. So, yeah, the HAL switch would be my pick.

 

[slowhands]

It would be stupid to skip the PAS function. That's the best thing about the control system. I guess you've not used one before.

The LCD has 6 levels, each one gives a different current when you pedal. Level 0 gives no power with PAS or throttle. Level 1 about 60w, level 2 about 130w, 3 about 230w 4 about 350w and 5 gives maximum up to about 750w. Go up one more level and the display changes to "L", the motor reverses and the winch is engaged with maximum power, which you get at speeds up to about 5 mph, then the back emf starts to reduce the current, so you typically see 350w to 600w when climbing depending on how fast you're going.

When you use the throttle, without PAS, it works normally, except on level zero, when you get zero power.
...

Not all PAS implementations are good. I did not like the PAS implementation on the Schwinn Tailwind. It waited until you pedaled for about 5 seconds before doing anything, then added a modest assist. The delay was annoying, but I suppose it was to prevent straining the underpowered motor on startup. On the other hand, I recently rode a somewhat uncommon "Urban mover" bike that seemed to run away when you started pedaling, adding too much power for the speed I was going and accelerating more than I wanted. I suppose I could get used to either. But I kept thinking, turn this PAS off and let me use the throttle. I know how to ride this thing, get your PAS out of my face. Realizing this is all done in software, it's interesting to see the different algorithm designs.

I really think PAS is really there to satisfy European pedelec regulations, which require it. Ebike makers sell to the world market and have to respect the local rules. US law does not require pedal sensing. You have to have pedals, not necessarily use them.

It sounds like the PAS works well on the Xiongda, working with the auto shift. That makes sense, and I'll look forward to trying it someday.

 

[d8veh]

I was referring specifically to the Xiongda PAS, which is very good.

 

[craiggor]

Must thank you d8veh for starting the xiongda posts.I hated PAS at first.I have no brake cut off's. First up hill traffic light I came to and I was shooting over the line as I pedaled just a bit to reach the stop line.I'am used to it now but I must get round to fitting an on/off switch for it.Sometimes off road I'am in low and want to get to no assist and that's 6 button presses to get to 0.I find I don't get full power in low and level 5 and the throttle is like a turbo (I suppose this could be altered in the settings) but I like it as it is.I can really save on battery life by using PAS level 1.

 

[ksw9915]

From the diagrams it doesn't look like the rear 135mm could fit a freewheel...the external dimensions is 13mm from motor to o.l.d???
What am I missing?

I'd like to use same 14s battery (li-ion) for the xiongda as I use for my MAC...will the heat be too much at that voltage??

 

[bigoilbob]

Must thank you d8veh for starting the xiongda posts.I hated PAS at first.I have no brake cut off's. First up hill traffic light I came to and I was shooting over the line as I pedaled just a bit to reach the stop line.I'am used to it now but I must get round to fitting an on/off switch for it.Sometimes off road I'am in low and want to get to no assist and that's 6 button presses to get to 0.I find I don't get full power in low and level 5 and the throttle is like a turbo (I suppose this could be altered in the settings) but I like it as it is.I can really save on battery life by using PAS level 1.

Me too. But I continue to believe that PAS is a personal preference, based on your needs/wants. I just last week completed my 16" Xiongda install for the front wheel of my Bikee E2 tandem recumbent. The pix are stills because it's drizzly today. NO idea why some of them are rotated and you must stand on your head to see them. We like to easy ride, and just pedal when we feel like it.

As for first impressions, great. Even pulling over 400#, that little motor really winches with the 16" wheel. We can climb most any hill in south St. Louis, albeit at 4-6 m/h. I also get about 20 miles on my 720 ah lithium battery. It taeks up about 2/3 of one of the saddlebags, and rides low enough that it doesn't affect handling. We're taking it to the Cal central coast next month for winterbirding, and it will be just the thing for getting from Pismo to Avila beach. Gotta go, more later, and maybe a vid.

 

[cycleops612]

So in short, awesome, EXCEPT, you have to use V brakes or (eeks) stretch the forks, or use a fatbike?

I am still not clear what normal people are supposed to do?

The extra weight seems acceptable for 2 speeds. If you can live with 2 speeds, and with electric u ~can, and it beats the hell out of the usual 1 speed.

Its a more solid transmission than using mid-drives for gears.

 

[bigoilbob]

So in short, awesome, EXCEPT, you have to use V brakes or (eeks) stretch the forks, or use a fatbike?

I am still not clear what normal people are supposed to do?

The extra weight seems acceptable for 2 speeds. If you can live with 2 speeds, and with electric u ~can, and it beats the hell out of the usual 1 speed.

Its a more solid transmission than using mid-drives for gears.

Not sure this was for me, but whatever. Yes, I had to mildly stretch the forks. A few mm, and with steel forks it worked out fine. UR right about the "2 speeds". More is not always better, but since all other hub motors are single speed, this is a qualitative improvement. It turns a little helper into a useful hauler, at no weight gain. This motor is light enough to make steering easy and unsprung weight not a problem. As for it being a "more solid transmission", the verdict is still out. I shelled a sun gear after less than 250 miles. X replaced it, but what the heey. I got some seemingly good relube info from a poster who had nearly 6000 miles on his, and followed it. I'm nearing my old failure miles, with no evidence of problems.

But it's my daily driver now. Silent running at ~15 m/h for my wife and I, all around south St. Louis. We've also taken it camping on both coasts. With ~30 miles of range solo, ~20 with both aboard, we can pub crawl anywhere in North America....

 

[friendly1uk]

It's a great idea, but nothing comes even remotely close to the number of problems these have. Both from the motor and the control gear. It's shockingly bad.

 

[cycleops612]

So in short, awesome, EXCEPT, you have to use V brakes or (eeks) stretch the forks, or use a fatbike?

I am still not clear what normal people are supposed to do?

The extra weight seems acceptable for 2 speeds. If you can live with 2 speeds, and with electric u ~can, and it beats the hell out of the usual 1 speed.

Its a more solid transmission than using mid-drives for gears.

Not sure this was for me, but whatever. Yes, I had to mildly stretch the forks. A few mm, and with steel forks it worked out fine. UR right about the "2 speeds". More is not always better, but since all other hub motors are single speed, this is a qualitative improvement. It turns a little helper into a useful hauler, at no weight gain. This motor is light enough to make steering easy and unsprung weight not a problem. As for it being a "more solid transmission", the verdict is still out. I shelled a sun gear after less than 250 miles. X replaced it, but what the heey. I got some seemingly good relube info from a poster who had nearly 6000 miles on his, and followed it. I'm nearing my old failure miles, with no evidence of problems.


But it's my daily driver now. Silent running at ~15 m/h for my wife and I, all around south St. Louis. We've also taken it camping on both coasts. With ~30 miles of range solo, ~20 with both aboard, we can pub crawl anywhere in North America....

I was trying to sum up as i see it


yes,i had heard, & even posted i think, the lube thing.

"repak with good synthetic grease b4 use"

as i recall, the gears look solid vs alternative bike gears.

good luck this time

yep - 15mph is a nice speed

 

[d8veh]

As for it being a "more solid transmission", the verdict is still out. I shelled a sun gear after less than 250 miles.

All the broken gears I've seen were on trikes. It happens when you push the motor backwards and the clutch jams. This locks both clutches and provides a massive torque to the ring gear, which splits it. Was yours on a normal bicycle or something else?

 

[d8veh]

It's a great idea, but nothing comes even remotely close to the number of problems these have. Both from the motor and the control gear. It's shockingly bad.

What are all the problems? Did you ever use a Xiongda?

 

[cycleops612]

It's a great idea, but nothing comes even remotely close to the number of problems these have. Both from the motor and the control gear. It's shockingly bad.

What are all the problems? Did you ever use a Xiongda?

News to me too. I did a quick scan, seem ok to me

As i alluded to b4, seems to me their lack of sales? - is due to being a cm or two too fat. It restricts its use a lot. No front disks on a mainstream MTB e.g.

 

[cycleops612]

as before, imho, the XiondaS central problem is its a bit fat to fit in a hub.

Given its not been fixed over the years, perhaps laterally, their killer app is as a less space constricted mid drive motor.

Kinda natty if u think about it.

As per a normal bafang etc, but within each derailleur gear, is a 2 speed auto gearbox. I would pay more for that.