Xiongda 2-speed motor

[techedge]

Thumb control?

 

[cycleops612]

Or simply use a mid drive and a xiongda on the front hub? (any forks with v brakes, else, slightly wider than normal)

Even simpler/cheaper, just use a LIGHTER, low rpm, freewheel front hub to maximise torque (climbing & getting up to ~10kph, then ~rely on the mid drive)

Having the trailer pushing the bike sounds fraught.

The front hub could be swapped out for another wheel when not towing if desired.

Benefit from your motor investment at all times, not just when trailer hooked up.

Less traction on the front is an issue on powerful cars, not so much wheelspin on an ebike methinks.

makes things much simpler in one fell swoop.

I doubt the thumb throttle is a problem, most controllers would offer either as an option methinks.

yes, 2 controllers & 1 battery is the go. I have checked around on that.

I very much like the idea of a 2 speed front hub xiongda on my dream mid drive. Take the heat off the chain transmission during the jerky bits of riding - then smoothly apply rear power when under way.

for me, the derailleurs have easily needed the most fiddling with on my mid-drive. The rest i can ~ignore. Time is money.

 

[techedge]

cycleops612, thanks for your reply.

 

[bigoilbob]

As for it being a "more solid transmission", the verdict is still out. I shelled a sun gear after less than 250 miles.

All the broken gears I've seen were on trikes. It happens when you push the motor backwards and the clutch jams. This locks both clutches and provides a massive torque to the ring gear, which splits it. Was yours on a normal bicycle or something else?

No, it was/is on a BikeE2 recumbent tandem. The 16" front wheel. I'm running the 48 volt system, on "power", so I'm sure I'm stressing the machine harder than many. But it's sold for that, with no weasel words waving me off. And no controller hot rod mods either.

With my replacement sun gear, I just now passed the mileage I put on the shredded one. With none of the ominous (upon hindsight) warning signs. I credit that, to (1) luck, and/or (2) the advice I took in these fora on how to properly lube the gears (i.e. not the way Xiongdang sends them out), and/or listening to folks like you who tell me to NEVER roll the hub backwards. I think I had some sporadic clutch failure with the shredded sun gear that allowed me to occasionally freewheel it back with no resistance - shame on me.

 

[cycleops612]

As for it being a "more solid transmission", the verdict is still out. I shelled a sun gear after less than 250 miles.

All the broken gears I've seen were on trikes. It happens when you push the motor backwards and the clutch jams. This locks both clutches and provides a massive torque to the ring gear, which splits it. Was yours on a normal bicycle or something else?

No, it was/is on a BikeE2 recumbent tandem. The 16" front wheel. I'm running the 48 volt system, on "power", so I'm sure I'm stressing the machine harder than many. But it's sold for that, with no weasel words waving me off. And no controller hot rod mods either.

With my replacement sun gear, I just now passed the mileage I put on the shredded one. With none of the ominous (upon hindsight) warning signs. I credit that, to (1) luck, and/or (2) the advice I took in these fora on how to properly lube the gears (i.e. not the way Xiongdang sends them out), and/or listening to folks like you who tell me to NEVER roll the hub backwards. I think I had some sporadic clutch failure with the shredded sun gear that allowed me to occasionally freewheel it back with no resistance - shame on me.

I hope not a dumb question, but wouldnt you know which caused the failure from the damaged gear? Load or rolling?

What is the total mass and power? Tandem sounds a big ask.

 

[d8veh]

As for it being a "more solid transmission", the verdict is still out. I shelled a sun gear after less than 250 miles.

All the broken gears I've seen were on trikes. It happens when you push the motor backwards and the clutch jams. This locks both clutches and provides a massive torque to the ring gear, which splits it. Was yours on a normal bicycle or something else?

No, it was/is on a BikeE2 recumbent tandem. The 16" front wheel. I'm running the 48 volt system, on "power", so I'm sure I'm stressing the machine harder than many. But it's sold for that, with no weasel words waving me off. And no controller hot rod mods either.

With my replacement sun gear, I just now passed the mileage I put on the shredded one. With none of the ominous (upon hindsight) warning signs. I credit that, to (1) luck, and/or (2) the advice I took in these fora on how to properly lube the gears (i.e. not the way Xiongdang sends them out), and/or listening to folks like you who tell me to NEVER roll the hub backwards. I think I had some sporadic clutch failure with the shredded sun gear that allowed me to occasionally freewheel it back with no resistance - shame on me.

As I said, the problem with the gears come when you paddle your bike backwards while you sit on it, which is what happens with any recumbent. Xiongda made some changes so that the motor won't jam so easily when pushed in reverse, but it's no a 100% fix, so be careful not to push your bike backwards while you sit on it. It only has to jam once! These motors are totally reliable on a normal bicycle even when substantially over-powered. Every failure that I heard of was on a recumbent.

 

[d8veh]

cycleops612, thanks for your reply.

I have edited my post to point out why front wheel drive wont work for me. Your exclamation "Having the trailer pushing the bike sounds fraught" rather ignores what I'm trying to do - not drive a light trailer along a flat street in dry weather, but actually a relatively heavy trailer along a remote sandy track and up (and down) steep sandy hills. A powered trailer is an absolute necessity - It's not something I'm willing to negotiate and one option is to actually dispense with the bicycle motor and just have the trailer motor and 100% of the load on the trailer.

As much as your comment "front hub could be swapped out for another wheel when not towing if desired" may be entirely appropriate in a big city - out in a desert, I want to maximise my towing capacity and hill climbing ability without compromise - I don't give a rats about "Benefiting from my motor investment at all times" - I want to do one very specific thing as well as is possible.

You say "Less traction on the front is an issue on powerful cars, not so much wheelspin on an ebike methinks". Well, I also agree it's not about power! In fact it's all about torque - on a front wheel even a small amount of torque can spin a front wheel in loose conditions.

As for simplicity - I agree! That's why I've chosen internally geared hub motors (less chance for the external environment affecting things - something I've yet to actually test with the XD motor). However, when simplicity gets in the way of function, then some engineering has to be done.

My apologies also - I should have given a timeline for what I'm trying to achieve - I have roughly 12 months to organise some technology that will do what I described in my initial post - I fully expect that I'll have to design and build electronics, write software, and spend many hour testing and refining what I'm trying to build - not so much a hobby as a passion! Yes, "Time is money" as is "you get what you pay for" - I didn't actually expect that there was something I could purchase out of a box that will do what I want - for any amount of money.

There's loads of spring-loaded thumb-throttles to choose from. You should be able to get one from Xiongda with their kit.

I think you're wrong about the traction from normal two wheel drive. I have made several 2WD bikes and my main off-road one has really good traction from both wheels when I ride in mud, wet grass, sand etc. Sometimes you can feel one or other of the wheels slipping, but the other one continues to drive it, and it's always very stable.

 

[bigoilbob]

Thx d. I agree with the paddling "tendency". MY wife and I have developed the habit of keeping a brake lightly pulled while at stops. So far, so good.....

 

[bigoilbob]

cy, I don't "know" if I would know, but I "think" that I shelled my sun gear from neither rolling nor loading, but from bad lube. It was evenly shredded, almost ground down, quite a way, but with no obvious missing teeth. Click my name, look back, and I posted a pic. X uses a white, sticky, "teflony", lube with no more than plastic flow properties. I replaced it with 2 grades of liquid PTFE, one for each side of the plate. Click menvert's name for what he did, since he had over 5000 miles on his, which I think he at least partially attributes to good lube.

I am now over my old sun gear mileage, with none of the signs (knock wood), that I interpreted, post failure, as ominous. I.e., sporadic failure to engage in low, sporadic reverse free wheel, and increasing skipping right at the end of life. Still a little gear growl at ~4/5 of max rpm, that I do not like. But it's been constant....

Hey, X. Involute, steel gears all round? Oilfield beam pumping units have had them since I broke out, over 40 years ago. Or is there an electrical problem with that?

 

[friendly1uk]

It's a great idea, but nothing comes even remotely close to the number of problems these have. Both from the motor and the control gear. It's shockingly bad.

What are all the problems? Did you ever use a Xiongda?

News to me too. I did a quick scan, seem ok to me

As i alluded to b4, seems to me their lack of sales? - is due to being a cm or two too fat. It restricts its use a lot. No front disks on a mainstream MTB e.g.

There is a 44 page thread on these. I was watching it closely at the beginning but as time passed people were having multiple failures. Who would want a bike you can't roll backwards confidently. One chap just stopped to talk to a friend and couldn't pull away. The choice of controllers is limited and their performance unsatisfactory. I'm not the first to say people should just give up on these. That is not something you ever hear around here, where people can generally fix anything.

 

[d8veh]

There is a 44 page thread on these. I was watching it closely at the beginning but as time passed people were having multiple failures. Who would want a bike you can't roll backwards confidently. One chap just stopped to talk to a friend and couldn't pull away. The choice of controllers is limited and their performance unsatisfactory. I'm not the first to say people should just give up on these. That is not something you ever hear around here, where people can generally fix anything.

That information is completely misleading. Have you tried one yourself? What experience do you have with them that authorises you to tell people to give up on them.

As I said, all the failures that I've heard of were on recumbents. Nothing to worry about on a normal bicycle.

I've been using them for over two years and done over 5000 miles. Before that, I tried every sort of motor. Now, I wouldn't have anything else. You don't need a wide choice of controllers if the ones that they supply do the job perfectly.

 

[techedge]

That information is completely misleading. .... [I have] done over 5000 miles. Before that, I tried every sort of motor. Now, I wouldn't have anything else. You don't need a wide choice of controllers

d8veh I appreciate you setting us straight on this. When I first found out about the XD "two speed" motor maybe 18 months ago it seemed exactly what I needed - a relatively small and lighweight motor that addressed the issue of low speed torque by having an ~8:1 reduction, AND a ~4.5:1 ratio for higher speed. Yes, I hesitated when I found they used nylon gears but then so too do others! Is there a collected FAQ on the current Xiongda (XD) motor? I want to rely on one or two of these units for mostly light duty use interspersed with some extreme short term use (where I've been thinking about overvolting for more power and torque), and knowing things like what's the best lubricant to use is going to be vital to my successful use.

 

[glend]

There is a 44 page thread on these. I was watching it closely at the beginning but as time passed people were having multiple failures. Who would want a bike you can't roll backwards confidently. One chap just stopped to talk to a friend and couldn't pull away. The choice of controllers is limited and their performance unsatisfactory. I'm not the first to say people should just give up on these. That is not something you ever hear around here, where people can generally fix anything.

That information is completely misleading. Have you tried one yourself? What experience do you have with them that authorises you to tell people to give up on them.

As I said, all the failures that I've heard of were on recumbents. Nothing to worry about on a normal bicycle.

I've been using them for over two years and done over 5000 miles. Before that, I tried every sort of motor. Now, I wouldn't have anything else. You don't need a wide choice of controllers if the ones that they supply do the job perfectly.

No, mine failed within a month on a normal bicycle and I wasn't bashing it, just climbing hills to and from work, so I doubt it has anything to do with recumbents at all . I replaced it with a mac500/1000 which has proven much more reliable (over 2500km now) and climbs hills like they don't even exist. But the country I live has 250w laws and the Xiongda would have been next best thing, if it was reliable.

 

[bigoilbob]

There is a 44 page thread on these. I was watching it closely at the beginning but as time passed people were having multiple failures. Who would want a bike you can't roll backwards confidently. One chap just stopped to talk to a friend and couldn't pull away. The choice of controllers is limited and their performance unsatisfactory. I'm not the first to say people should just give up on these. That is not something you ever hear around here, where people can generally fix anything.

That information is completely misleading. Have you tried one yourself? What experience do you have with them that authorises you to tell people to give up on them.

As I said, all the failures that I've heard of were on recumbents. Nothing to worry about on a normal bicycle.

I've been using them for over two years and done over 5000 miles. Before that, I tried every sort of motor. Now, I wouldn't have anything else. You don't need a wide choice of controllers if the ones that they supply do the job perfectly.

No, mine failed within a month on a normal bicycle and I wasn't bashing it, just climbing hills to and from work, so I doubt it has anything to do with recumbents at all . I replaced it with a mac500/1000 which has proven much more reliable (over 2500km now) and climbs hills like they don't even exist. But the country I live has 250w laws and the Xiongda would have been next best thing, if it was reliable.

glend, if mine fails I will think about following your lead. But in spite of what d8veh has heard of, I think that the lube is a big mode of failure. The X factory sticky lube was OBVIOUSLY not up to it. When my sun gear shredded, I replaced it and used light and heavy wet PTFE, per menvert's advice. Both him and d8 have big miles on their units. I just now over ran my pre failure mileage, and have none of the noise or other indications that I had before it - knock wood.

The motor is lighter than the MAC (easy to turn), fits in my 100+mm front drop out, is quiet, and winches great. I looked for MAC torque unsuccessfully, but saw comments in other threads about it being "gentle". Mine's not, and I had to special order spokes for my 16" wheel to accommodate my 48 volt version. More efficient too (judging from MAC comments), and with a concomitantly easier battery draw. I can ride my ~85# tandem recumbent, with 200# of me, no pedal, for 30 miles, stop and go, with my 48 v, 15 a*h lith, and still be well above min volts. ~21 miles with the missus aboard. The MAC comments I've seen indicate ~2/3 of that, with lighter bikes. Gets my wife and I up ~13% degree grade (steepest I've attempted with her), no pedal,~14 amps, admittedly at fast walking speed. Please don't use the Xiongda torque tables to back calculate my wife's weight!!!

 

[cycleops612]

Ta for sharing Bigoilbob. Many are interested am sure.

If u r right, u would think the silly bastards would invest in some upmarket grease? what on earth are they thinking? Would have to be the false economy of all time.

Other than the grease thing,I have yet to see any non "sample of one" evidence forthcoming of that rabid naysayers claims. They are news to me, and i have been watching them with mild interest for ~5 years.

Not sure if u said so, but i hear its a simple job to repack w/ grease folks.

 

[glend]

Its possible I got a lemon so I don't want to turn people off the Xiongda as it performed admirably in the short time it worked for me. Yes lube does seem to be the go and I never changed the lube in mine so perhaps thats the answer. But I am hopeful the Xiongda will only get better with future versions when they iron out all the bugs. The MAC torque is the 10T 255rpm version from em3ev.com. I have 27" wheels and it can combat the hills on my route with ease perhaps travelling twice the speed of the xiongda when climbing but with your 16" wheel you'd probably only need a 8T or 6T else the torque might be a bit too much (it be like a mountain goat). I don't have an amp guage but think I can achieve 35 miles easily on a 48v 20AH battery over hilly terrain but I only use the normal power setting as high power is a bit too much (I try baby hubs as I prize dependability above speed). Even if a could calculate your wife's weight I wouldn't, certain subjects are sacred.

 

[d8veh]

The very first Xiongda 2-speed motors had very hard waxy grease in them, that made them noisy. Since then, they changed it to something more normal. I don't think the grease has anything to do with gears breaking. It's still possible (though a lot less likely) to get the same failure on a normal bicycle as on the recumbents by pushing it backwards - worse if you're sitting on it.

 

[craiggor]

I bought mine just after the grease had been changed.So did not open it from new.When it broke and I opened it up it had the hard grease in it. It was rattling the most I had heard it rattle the day it broke.Mine is in a 2 wheeler,just can't help rolling back sometimes.it broke at around 1400 miles new gears now on 500 miles.Stretching this spring has made the rattle much less.

There was only one spring this drawing shows 3.

Yona at xiongda said one was OK.I always try to not to roll the bike backwards.Mine striped pulling off from rest,I changed gear and it striped the 2nd gear.Still think its great.

 

[bigoilbob]

Ta for sharing Bigoilbob. Many are interested am sure.

If u r right, u would think the silly bastards would invest in some upmarket grease? what on earth are they thinking? Would have to be the false economy of all time.

Other than the grease thing,I have yet to see any non "sample of one" evidence forthcoming of that rabid naysayers claims. They are news to me, and i have been watching them with mild interest for ~5 years.

Not sure if u said so, but i hear its a simple job to repack w/ grease folks.

cyclops, I'm not taking sides either. I respect glend's choice, and understand how someone reading threads can get cynical about the extra moving parts, and their quality. The might very well be right. And glend is having a good experience with his MAC. It's also a known psychological phenom that folks like me get anchored in our choices and are therefore biased.

The only thing that I'm convinced of is that this is a qualitatively better idea, and that it can be built and sold as a reliable, quality product. I can't yet say for sure that my unit represents an example of that.....

 

[cycleops612]

Ta for sharing Bigoilbob. Many are interested am sure.

If u r right, u would think the silly bastards would invest in some upmarket grease? what on earth are they thinking? Would have to be the false economy of all time.

Other than the grease thing,I have yet to see any non "sample of one" evidence forthcoming of that rabid naysayers claims. They are news to me, and i have been watching them with mild interest for ~5 years.

Not sure if u said so, but i hear its a simple job to repack w/ grease folks.

cyclops, I'm not taking sides either. I respect glend's choice, and understand how someone reading threads can get cynical about the extra moving parts, and their quality. The might very well be right. And glend is having a good experience with his MAC. It's also a known psychological phenom that folks like me get anchored in our choices and are therefore biased.

The only thing that I'm convinced of is that this is a qualitatively better idea, and that it can be built and sold as a reliable, quality product. I can't yet say for sure that my unit represents an example of that.....

sure, but misinformation aint all beer and skittles either.

 

[bigoilbob]

Need advice. If you followed old posts, sorry for the repetition. My 48 volt, front X hub shelled a sun gear a few months ago. It had the hard, sticky, white factory lube. I replaced, and relubed per advice of menvert, and maybe one other poster. Apparently good advice. After ~300 miles, my motor started squealing under load, started with a shudder, had less power, and pulled less amps. I got into it thinking that I had another mechanical problem. All of my gears were fine. Thanks menvert et. al.. I then recleaned, relubed, reassembled, and test rode. I still had my squeal - for the first ride. Then, it disappeared, all was powerful and silky smooth, and it pulled normal amps. Today I'm back to squealing. And FYI, there is no error message on my C600 controller, and otherwise, it controls the motor just fine. The readout is also ok, and I'm pretty sure my speed sensor is working.

So, on hindsight, might I just have an intermittent electrical problem that results in part of my windings not getting any juice? I just thought of this, and it's too hot this afternoon to go a troubleshooting with my motor connector and a meter. But what are all of those pins connected to? I'm sure that some are for speed sensing, and at least 2 are for power, but could I have something as easy to fix as an external, intermittent, short? Or do I have to disassemble again and check out my windings and internal connections?

Thx all in advance.

 

[d8veh]

It's probably a motor hall sensor problem. Check that the 6-way connector from the motor wire to the controller is OK. Another cause I've seen is a cable-tie pulled too tight on the motor wire, which damaged it.

 

[bigoilbob]

It's probably a motor hall sensor problem. Check that the 6-way connector from the motor wire to the controller is OK. Another cause I've seen is a cable-tie pulled too tight on the motor wire, which damaged it.

Many thx d8veh. I might be guilty of one or both. I'll check it tomorrow after our mid west heat dome rains out. Separately, just read your month old post on climbing a 30% grade. Quite impressed. What size wheel are you laced to?

 

[bigoilbob]

It's probably a motor hall sensor problem. Check that the 6-way connector from the motor wire to the controller is OK. Another cause I've seen is a cable-tie pulled too tight on the motor wire, which damaged it.

Your mention of a tight cable tie made my ears turn red. It appears that I had a related, assembler error. I was so anchored in the concept of securing my motor connector- controller/display cable to my fork, that I did not have it plugged in all the way. At least that's what I think, from the fact that there are no obvious broken wires, and when I loosened the connection, and pushed it tight, the motor worked perfectly Both up in the air and pulling me up the street.

Silly mistake, but I believe still worth mentioning. My lesson learned is to take a close pic of how close the 2 arrows are, and don't be happy until they are that close, during subsequent wheel pulls. For my inevitable flat, for example. Thanks once again, d8veh.......

 

[d8veh]

There's a guide-line on the connector that shows how far to push them together.

My wheels are 26". My motor is the 48v one at 15 amps. Previously, I had the 36v version, which had less torque until I soldered the shunt to increase it to 20 amps. That brings it to the same torque as the 48v one at 15A.