Spooky tooth death race 2010

[Knuckles]

Spooky Tooth sold me my very first Grubee kit.

Their races are a blast btw. 8)

Death Race 2010 Gallery

Hey ... is Roland an ES member?
I've known him for many years but never saw him here on ES.

http://www.spookytoothcycles.com/spooky-in-the-press/video

 

[dequinox]

Wow that looks like so much fun!!! Dogman you did darn good with that Aotema motor, how did it do as far as heat goes? Was it scorched afterward?

One of the things that was swirling through my head a lot watching that was the importance of battery placement related to making your corners. We all know that lower is better ( or at least that's the general idea I think...) but another key is front-to-rear placement. Close to the rear gives you a little more grip, but at these power levels you're probably not skidding much anyways. More forward helps your front tire grab the track really well, but your rear tire could lose traction on a real tight corner (plus the motor weight helps with the front wheel anyways). I would think placing the battery as near to your body's center of gravity as possible would help make the turns feel the most natural, and getting it low in the triangle would be best. A dense little package of 20ah 30C lipos ought to do nicely there. Plus you may want to throw on a 5304 instead of the aotema. Do you know what the wilderness kit will take amp-wise?

 

[wasp]

i think i could of given these guys a run for their money on my current setup
i'm not allowed in the states unfortunately ... actually i'm not even allowed out of ontario...
the only issue i can see with my 9C overvolted is heat but i would just drill the covers
i think a 9C @ 100v delta/wye would have been hard to beat
mad props for going dogman and feeling out the competition next year you will be more competitive
you represented es well

 

[dogman dan]

We'll be finding out soon, the 72v lipo is coming. It was a 90 F day by the time of the main heat, but it was 12 laps, no hill, not extremely windy, so I knew the aotema would have no heat issues running 1200 watt peaks for 10 miles. Probobally only pulling about 15 amps most of the time, and 22 out of the corners. So basicly I was running a stock bike and have put it through much worse than that on my daily commute. I didn't even put the thermometer on the motor for the race, I was so sure it would be no problem. It will be fun to see how fast I can heat up that motor with 72v, and then I'll start ventilating it.

The bike I rode had no issues with weight from the battery. Only 15 pounds mounted on a rear rack. After 6000 miles of riding this kind of setup if it handles funny I sure don't notice it anymore. The only problem I had with the corners was despite full throttle all the way through them, I came out of em too slow compared to the gassers, and they'd lose me on the straights. I was entering the corners faster than many, but not faster than the winners. Center triangle mount would have been nice, but the bike has no triangle. Most likely the 15 pound battery is no worse placed on the bike than my 30 pound ass.

Some bikes were running with REALLY funky geometry, one dude in particular with a chopper fork looked like he was definitely crashing every corner. But despite the shaky bike the dude was really fast. Guy has skills to corner that thing so fast. Another impressive bike handler was AZ bill on the longtail.

Working on this bike now for cornering practice at 72v in a local parking lot. Planning a rear rack battery here too, since it will be so light and balanced by a front hub.

 

[AussieJester]

Why go with rear rack mount when you have so much space in the triangle DoGMaN? I think
your going to be very surprised how small a pack the lipos will make up too, and unless
your controller is current limited? extremely surprised how many amps your going to pull
as you fry the frock in the process will make way for Dogman pro rc motor setup meeeebe? :lol:
instead of pulling 22amps out of the corners next year it will be 122amps and a big smiling
DoGMaNz on the top step of the podium...well, unless Thud manages to stay on his bike for the entire race
that is, then you might have to settle for 2nd

KiM

 

[Lock]

...Zero Agni made up the difference in the corners.

In a race that has "no rules" all I can see are vehicles that were originally designed/sold as pedal machines... Is this the unspoken rule?
If fastest average speed takes home the silverware, where fastest cornering rules... maybe getting too close to go-cart territory here, but shouldn't a leaning recumbent trike with power assist added be the winner? My selection criteria would be any "cheater" vehicle that wins 2011 then is immediately banned for 2012...

loCk

 

[dogman dan]

The practice bike will be used to test everything, but for convenience the battery will start out in the rear, since I won't be risking it all in practice, and it will be quite easy and convenient to locate it there. I'm sure next year better riders than I will be there, with better lipo budgets. In the actual race, I may again be riding a full suspension bike, unless 700' acceleration is that much better on the hardtail. If I use FS, the battery will not have much place to go but the rear. I'll be happy enough if I stay on the same lap as the leaders. Wattage ought to be around 2000 with the Lyens controller I think.

 

[wasp]

The practice bike will be used to test everything, but for convenience the battery will start out in the rear, since I won't be risking it all in practice, and it will be quite easy and convenient to locate it there. I'm sure next year better riders than I will be there, with better lipo budgets. In the actual race, I may again be riding a full suspension bike, unless 700' acceleration is that much better on the hardtail. If I use FS, the battery will not have much place to go but the rear. I'll be happy enough if I stay on the same lap as the leaders. Wattage ought to be around 2000 with the Lyens controller I think.

if you are going to run lyen's 72v 45amp controller at those specks you will be way over 2000w my friend
i'll assume your going to run 20s of lipo like me is 83v off the charger and 45amps your looking at peaks of 3600+ watts and some much needed straight away speeds... i will replace my lipo in the spring and your welcome to the old ones then if you want

 

[Toorbough ULL-Zeveigh]

My selection criteria would be any "cheater" vehicle that wins 2011 then is immediately banned for 2012...

UCI 2I with a certain international cycling union.

 

[dingoEsride]

I like your lines, you just cut in gain heaps but the noisy stinkers have a bit more on the straights, won't be long and youll have them chasing you,
GO the E bikes!

 

[dogman dan]

Yeah peak wattage would be possibly 3240, and maybe even a spike too short to see recorded on the CA that is even higher off the start line.

I have a tendency to think in terms of continuos watts though, and If I enter the tightest corner on the track at around 25-27 mph I won't see the full 3000 watts due to the speed I already have. More likely is about 2/3 of the full wattage, so I'm expecting to pull about 2000 watts exiting a corner into the straight. Testing will show the reality. On tests of the 2010 race bike, I was only pulling about 10 amps above 25 mph. So that was my problem, I only had 500 watts of power to grab out on the track. I only saw the full 1200 watts at the start line. A hole shot would help in the race though, allowing you to make the others pass you the hard way on corners.

Smack talk is so fun, but really, it's going to take a LOT of bike and even more rider to beat Fairracing 31, and don't be suprised when the other good riders from 2010 get new motors for thier bikes by next year. The fast 4-6 riders are a school of SHARKS, and the Death Race is well named. Some of those guys may be used to dirt cornering, but they corner like madmen and the bikes are very fast!

 

[dogman dan]

Thanks Wasp, for the offer of used lipo.

It will be sorely needed by me, and most likely others that show up. We'll need all the packs we can scrounge up for practice laps, and though possible fast charging in the pits is simply going to be a pain in the ass. Socializing and doing laps is what you want to be doing, not setting up chargers. A pile of nearly used up lipo packs we can bring ready to ride would reall help, allowing riders to keep the pack for the race undischarged.

I still like the Idea of getting some funds together from ES members, and shipping some new lipo to me, to become prizes for the first place, or more if we get a big pile of lipo. 72v 5ah for frist, and 36v 5 ah each for second and third would be cool. Get whoever has the best discount at HK to order it shipped to my house , where I can break em in, and then have them for whoever is short of battery to run in the race. Allow somebody with only 5 ah to run 10 ah in the race, or something.

Over at motored bikes .com Safe, Thud, and I are discussing the rules for a proposed 1000 watt class where the same kind of bike I rode last year could be competitive. (actually 1200 watts peak) So you could show up with a commuterbike, 48v battery, stock controller from a kit, and race similar bikes. It should be good fun for those that can't afford to build a dedicated race bike. 48v diving into those cornes is still plenty exciting, especially if we have some well matched bikes so we can rub elbows. So bring what you have and run it. We'll all have fun whether at 30 mph or 50.

 

[Whiplash]

Hey guys, this looks FUN! Exactly when and where is this race next year? I will have mine ready to go I hope by then and would LOVE to come play! I tried to look for it but I could not see the details anywhere?? I hope to be @ 70+ Volts and 60A by then, but we will see...$$ Talks! LOL! I am getting ready to start the build real soon..

 

[GrayKard]

Hey guys, this looks FUN! Exactly when and where is this race next year? I will have mine ready to go I hope by then and would LOVE to come play! I tried to look for it but I could not see the details anywhere?? I hope to be @ 70+ Volts and 60A by then, but we will see...$$ Talks! LOL! I am getting ready to start the build real soon..

Here's the thread that started it all: Motorized Bicycle racing in Tucson Arizona

Gary

 

[Whiplash]

I have been reading the hell out of these couple threads, and MAN this looks like a blast! I used to race stand up jet skis professionally and cornering is cornering go wide and cut in tight, and if there is anybody in the way, MAKE EM MOVE! LOL! Great job DOG! I am glad to see somebody showed up, I too think the ICE guys days are numbered unless they switch to really long heat races or something (which would be a total sign of them giving up the fight). I have this earmarked for my first E-Race on my machine! Am I understood correctly that as long as its a true pedal bike is OK to run even if its a one off build? It looks like it but some of the custom ones I saw could be cut up bikes rather than ground up builds.. I am loving the idea someone had of running the 20" rims and the Supermotard Sticky rubber! The shorter tire would likely give you a bit more power out of the turns too!

 

[dogman dan]

The date of the Spooky Tooth Cycles Death Race 2010 was April 18. So I'd assume next april for the next one.

But last year they ran some heats at halloween, and again in January so I hope to race 3-4 times a year in the future. Monitor Spooky Tooth Cycles website for info on future heats, and of course I'll let ya'll know if I'm going racing.

I suprised myself, how I just started owning the corners. The heat race I got in a nice duel with that same guy. I'd wave the fast bikes through on a straight, but if behind me on a corner, they had to make me move or pass outside. I was letting them have the bumpy corner though, looking for a smoother line outside that didn't exist after all. All the video really helped me figure out where my line was right on, and where it wasn't.

Again, the only rules I heard of were, Must be a bicycle(pedals). Wear a helmet, gloves , long sleeves, shoes, etc. Apparently even a bike helmet is ok.
Don't take shortcuts across the track if you break. Hold up one hand if about to enter the pits. That's it.

 

[Whiplash]

Cool, really sounds fun. You gotta love the upstart racing series, they are by far the most fun to compete in!

 

[Hyena]

Man these gasses aren't going to know whats hit them when all these high powered lipo ebikes show up
Especially if guys with RC motors run, I predict there'll be an out cry when they start getting their asses kicked and try to create a seperate division for ebikes.

 

[Whiplash]

Yeah, to all planning on attending, if you are able to beat them.......SANDBAG! Make sure we don't kick their arse's too badly or the definitely will be some complaining! LOL! That way, when they step up their game, with better porting/compression etc, we can just twist a lil harder on the throttle and beat em anyway! LOL!

 

[dingoEsride]

I still like the Idea of getting some funds together from ES members, and shipping some new lipo to me, to become prizes for the first place, or more if we get a big pile of lipo. 72v 5ah for frist, and 36v 5 ah each for second and third would be cool. Get whoever has the best discount at HK to order it shipped to my house , where I can break em in, and then have them for whoever is short of battery to run in the race. Allow somebody with only 5 ah to run 10 ah in the race, or something.

I know you didn't win the event nor did you lose and you gave it your best shot, but I sure hope you beat this fellow, it looks like he is pedaling though

All in the name of fun

But i'll be glad to chip in a few buck's for the E bike cause for the next years event, will need to know payment details or paypal to email addy

 

[dogman dan]

Thanks for the offer! Later on closer to next years race, provided there is one? I'll start putting out a call for some more ES contributions towards some kind of prize for the winner, and maybe a call for your tired old lipo for use on practice laps. For now I'm pretty set thanks to ES buying me a controller. I have some lipo coming, chargers are here, and just need a few more tools for pack management that I can afford. My wife rolls her eyes and gives me that look, but she's actually a bit proud of me for competing at my age.

I got a laugh out of the big guy. At the swap meet that morning he had a display of gassers for sale so I stopped and asked if he was going to race. When he heard I was going to ride an electric, he went into the smack talk. I'll kick your ass on that ebike etc... I looked at his weight and thought, Mabye if I put about 200 ah of trolling motor batteries on my bike. :lol: He had a good time out there like we all did, and was faster than a few others with poor riding skills. But no way he ever passed me, even when out on the 36v battery.

Just got a test ride last night on my racing practice bike. Still 48v for now, but I'd forgot how scary it was on a regular street with that curb coming at ya. I'll be doing my practice laps on a big nice parking lot with few obstacles and a safe bail out on turns.

Ya'll in Australia need to start looking into a go cart track, or a dirt oval, or a good dirt roads near the population centers so you can get your own racing scene going, both gassers and electirc of course. Even the right parking lot could become a nice L shaped track. Two guys, a parking lot, and a sunday morning before the owner wakes up is all you need to get a start.

 

[Hyena]

Ya'll in Australia need to start looking into a go cart track, or a dirt oval, or a good dirt roads near the population centers so you can get your own racing scene going

I'd be there in a heart beat it if got going.
I know the perfect place for it in Sydney too, Eastern Creek go kart track. I've raced there before and you can get up a bit of pace, about 80km/hr from memory in the 13hp karts. There's also a bloke a few minutes up the road that sells alot of little push bike engine kits, he'd be a good one to try and get it happening

 

[AussieJester]

I'd be there in a heart beat it if got going.

HAHAHA about as much chance of ebike racing takin off in Australia as
long piece swim suits on Bondi Beach HiGHSiDE, if by some miracle it
does ill be there to kick your frock motor ass There simply ain't enough
'enthuisits in OZ for it to happen for starters we have a 200watt limit
maybe you could be the OZ version of Safe and push for 200watt limit EBRR
(electrical bicycle road racing)Guaranteed there will be less than 6 people running
the Death Race with 1000watt ...Thud and Dogman, explain to me please since
you two have bought into his 1000wat garbage how Safe can pull 50mph using
only 1000watt again as he claims he can? I think hes in for a big shock if and
when he actually gets some onboard monitoring (in case you two don't know
Safe has never used a Watts up meter or Cycle analyst on any of his bikes)

I find it truly amazing he can do this with a rewound 500watt motor...
and a 20amp controller

KiM

ref: Moteredbikes.com Safes 500watt rewind thread

Quick Update

We've been having rain the last few days so I just managed to get out and test the whole setup today. All six gears work without any problems and top gear pulled 51 mph down a little downhill I have nearby. 35 to 40 mph on the flat seems about right, so on flat land I'd normally not go above fourth gear.

Gearing Setup: 25, 30, 35, 40, 45, 50 mph (peak power)

From this point forward it looks like I'll be testing the long term reliability of the motor... but as long as the commutators don't behave like the Unite motors this should last for a long time. (until the brushes wear out, which could be a thousand miles or more) The motor remains incredibly cool despite pulling some very fast top end speeds.

Still no WattsUp meter to verify wattage... eventually I need to get one.... (mandatory for racing more or less)

 

[dogman dan]

Might be Safe, Thud, and myself running in a 1000 watt class. But I'll run the 1000 watt race as a warmup for the death race. Likely the 1000 watt race will be tagged on to the end of one of the pre death race heats. I don't know yet what wattage I'll run in the death race, but since Fairracing 31 claims 42 mph top speed on the track, I'll be aiming for at least 45 mph by the end of the 700' straight. Good luck not crashing keepin up with him though!

I'd race a 500 watt class if there was one. That would be so closely matched it would com e down to the elbowing contest in the corners. :lol: But the idea is to have a heat where a guy can show up with a stock electric hub kit and run it without getting lapped multiple times. Not much different in spirit from the original lawnmower races.

But obviously just like $500 claimer stock car racing died, so will the 1000 watt ebike race. HK lipo prices will see to that. Soon all racers will want and can afford a 72v bike. And that will be the end of 1000 watt racing. But hey, why not run it for now? Believe it or not 30 mph in those corners is pretty thrilling, and it takes a lot to thrill me. As thud says, more racing is more fun. Before long we'll be running voltage classes from 48 to 150.

I don't doubt that Safe has gearing that can allow 50 mph speed. Aerodynamics matter. If he can hit 50 mph by the end of that 700ft straightaway on the track I'll be pretty suprised though. I would expect his motors act like ours, taking forever to develop that last few mph. I can't wait to line up with him on the track and kick his ass with a lame frock motor, because I can outcorner him. It's gonna be touch your brakes you lose and I bet he grabs before I do. Used to running 72v, the 48v race willl seem slow. Safe better build a more dangerous (2000 watt) bike to practice on. As he keeps saying, I've got a year to get ready to win. It's one thing to get on that track and another to keep the hammer down in those corners. Of 70 riders there, only half were taking the corners fast.

Safe doesn't have a wattmeter? I bet he will be pretty suprised when he learns that his 1000 watt race bike is a 1500 watt bike. :lol:

 

[Thud]

LOL AJ,
Please don't take this the wrong way.......But......you sounded so much like "Safe" in that post it cracks me up.
(Oh sh_t, now we gotta fight :lol: )

Any way....I really don't care what the class is, if enough guys show up on like equipment....Its a race.
My ICE crusher will be a handfull on that track & I Just hope no one gets hurt trying to keep up. (ooooooo smack talk)
But I will also bring a fully faired 1000w compliant build & really looking to duel with an internet ledgend. (thats YOU dogman...the defending E-bike national champ!)

At the very least its a start of something. Even if its a failure at least it was tried.

Back 1970's in US motocross, one of the most popular (amature) classes was a 100cc class. I raced it in 78 & 79 against michigan based riders who accounted for no less than 8 AMA national amature championships,none of wich were in the 100cc class! (Back before all the B,C & "beginer" class B.S. they have now) I think the highest overall for me was a 4th place & Ironicly, I suddenly had credibility amongst my competition. Credit that class for my motocross education. The bikes were cheap & all the 250cc & open class experts ran the screamers for more track time & it was just plain FUN battling with all the best riders on realtivly slow bikes.

This is the reason I will give 1000w raceing a legit chance. At this stage of life I am looking for a battle, I really want to win but more importantly, I want some competition. (I always have my open classer To really get my acceleration grins) The only races that stick n my mind are the ones i really had to fight for, few of those were for 1st position.

IIRC Safe's stated he hit his highest speed of 50mph on a down hill section of road he frequents. (I have gone 50mph on a bicycle with no assist on a long down hill) But I think there will be a wake up call once Safe puts a watt meter on his bike & learns he is over 1k watts during accelreation......hopefully this will all be settled in a few months