waste of time. don't bother.

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novembersierra28 said:
I've found 50pcs for 200 dollars... http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/New-Lifepo4-A123-18650-1000-1100mah-battery-Cell-50-Pcs_W0QQitemZ320514055633QQcmdZViewItemQQptZLH_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item4aa0205dd1
How high a voltage do you want? How much current do you need to pull, and for how long? How much range do you want at those power levels?

Those are all questions you need answers to before you can size and price a battery pack. ;)
 
Cell_man could get you the best A123 bang for the buck, with 20Ah cells at $50/per cell, or 15Ah cells at $37.50/cell. They also don't require dicking around with a tab welder to build a pack.

Other options would be headways, at ~$18 per 10Ah cell, but you would need to run them 2P to handle your current needs, so $36 per 20Ah cell group.

Or... if you want to spend the money to get a proper charger setup (~$150-200), you could go with LiPo from HobbyCity... Which has outstanding performance, but you're not ready for a chemistry that isn't tollerent of a single mistake in anything yet.
 
novembersierra28 said:
I 'welded' the tabs on every part of the bike chain yesterday, which explains why there's been no chain-breakage. It works perfectly.as the tabs don't slip out anymore.
If you mean welded as in arc-welder welding, that kind of heat has probably softened the metal of the links themselves, and the chain may stretch or break unexpectedly. Hopefully not, but it is possible. Just keep an eye on it every time you use it.


I experimented with A123's before, and found the perfect 'fit' PVC electrical pipe that they can fit into, I considered building a battery that goes on one side of the bike and offers a balance, this would protect the controller from the elements. How many batteries are we talking here for 20ah? 3.3v? 66 batteries? that's reasonable........
It's not just the Ah you are needing to worry about, it's the total max average discharge current you need to maintain, and how many strings of cells you need to parallel to get that average current safely dischargeable from those cells without damaging them, overheating the connections between them, or the casing you put them in.

I think before you continue any further with a new pack quest, you really need to read up on the battery technology threads about how to size your packs.
 
novembersierra28 said:
Something unexpected has happened... The 14T freewheel sprocket barfed it's guts up. Too much strain on the freewheel... There is a member on this forum that's going to kill my soul for this with 'i told you so's' chalo...:D
.

AussieJester said:
And this problem is solvable buy using a White Industries ENO freewheel from Sickbikeparts

KiM

:mrgreen:
 
novembersierra28 said:
i think I need to machine the Etek's shaft down to 5/8, as this opens up a lot of options to fit on freewheels...etc... would you agree?

You could possibly use some form of freewheel adapter on the Eteks shaft

KiM
 
novembersierra28 said:
36volts

20ah

20 miles
Unfortunately 20Ah is not how much current you intend to pull, it is simply a capacity rating of a particular battery, cell, or pack.

What you need to know is how much current will be pulled out of the battery, both maximum and average. Without that info you might or might not get the performance you want out of a battery pack, or possibly even damage the pack if it's not sized large enough to safely supply that amount of current.

Worst case you can assume the (I think) 300A your controller can pull at maximum, for however long it's spec'd to do that (probably 10 minutes or less), and then whatever it's sustained current rating is. That is, assuming your controller will shutdown at overcurrent or over temperature.

It also depends on what speeds you expect to get to and maintain, because that will determine part of the power demands, as well as how long you have to maintain those demands and how long your pack has to last (assuming you get no chance to recharge at the other end of any particular trip--if you can always recharge at the halfway point, you can size the pack for 10 miles).

So if you were to use cylindrical A123 cells to make the pack, lets assume 5C for them as max output current (I can't recall what they actually can put out safely, so all these numbers are rough guesstimates), and that they are 3Ah each. That means that each cell can output 15A max (but could only do so for about 12 minutes to total depletion (which might damage the cell). Maybe 8 minutes to a safe LVC.

Even just saying that you needed it only for 8 minutes, assume you need the ability to put out 300A, you'd need at least 20 cells in parallel. If you need that current for longer than that (in total, not necessarily all at once), you need to double (or more) that number.

Then 3.3V for the unloaded cell voltage. That's 11 cells in series.

So at minimum you'd need 220 (20 x 11) cells. You might need 440 or more, depending on the actual current consumption of the system in use as you travel, to get your desired range.

Because the Cell-man prismatic versions have a much higher c-rate and capacity, you don't need nearly as many of them.

You face similar issues with any pack you wish to build out of small cells. Larger cells simplify things somewhat.

but first, I gotta fix this freewheel sprocket problem. There's no turning back. it still partially works without any bearings inside the freewheel, but for how long is anybody's guess....I need a tough freewheel with a 7/8 bore and 3/17 key, I'm charging the batteries up and will test everything this evening when all three are charged up.

i think I need to machine the Etek's shaft down to 5/8, as this opens up a lot of options to fit on freewheels...etc... would you agree?
The freewheel sprocket on the motor shaft just allows you to pedal without the motor turning, right? So if you needed to, you could indeed fix the freewheel into a single piece, as long as you do not need to pedal without motor power.

To remove the freewheel, you might see if you can find someone you know (or a hardware store) that will let you use a 3-jaw puller.
 
novembersierra28 said:
Do you think the 'jiggling' occurred because the controller is right next to the motor?
No. Almost certainly the jiggling is the result of voltage drop causing the LVC of the controller to activate, either because the batteries sag too far during high current draw or because of a high-resistance connection. The other major possibility is simply a loose connection vibrating open and closed, but you would likely see or hear major sparking as that happened under load, and probably see burn marks on the bad connection point afterwards.

My motor is within inches of my controller, which is litterally clamped to the side of one of the batteries. The motor is directly below the batteries. I never experience such jiggling/judder, mostly because my system does not draw anywhere near the amps yours does. The Curtis on mine is extreme overkill, but it was the only other controller I had to put on there while I was troubleshooting the 2QD I'd blown up during a previous mechanical problem.

the guy on the insane-a-cycle used similar batteries...Dave ended up with 51mph..I've just looked at some 100 setups on evalbum I can sense that it's probably not. still charging those cells,
Is he using the same gearing and wheel size you are? The same exact motor model/brand? The same controller? The same wiring sizes and type of connection? If not, any of those things could explain the differences in results. Also just using similar batteries may not get the same results--sometimes it requires *identical* batteries, charged to *identical* conditions.

I see at least one other problem with the wiring in your new pics-- You appear to be placing the lugs on the controller stood off from the controller's lugs by nuts. That gives less connector surface area contact and a higher resistance. You should be placing the lugs directly against the controller's lugs (tabs), then using the washers and nuts to clamp them together tightly. If two or more lugs must bolt to the same place, overlap them at angles or one on each side of the controller lug, etc.

If you don't, then you are passing your current from a high-conductivity copper/tinned lug into a low-conductivity steel nut, which passes it into the high-conductivity copper/tinned lug on the controller.

I would also use a plastic sleeve of some sort around the part of the lug that isn't flat and making the connection, so that it cannot short against anything even if vibration were to knock it loose.


I'm not going to be able to pull off that freewheel so I'm going to try and build it back while it's on the Etek... It's got a very hard back to close and open so I'm going to hunt around for a dicta freewheel 'tool'. I am convinced that this ebike will do quite well once everything is in place.
You might ask your LBS if they will use their tool to open it up for you (usually closing them up requires no tools, as the tightening is done by pedalling force--motor force in your case). They usually charge something for it, but often far less than the tool cost if it's a really quick job and you only need it done once.
 
novembersierra28 said:
When I was riding the ebike yesterday, to my amazement, I could change gears! I had seven separate gears to choose from! all of which I could use for the slopes and straights! that was the highlight of the bicycle! That's the whole point behind a freewheel sprocket on the shaft....
I am not sure I understand. It should not require a freewheel on the motor to be able to change gears at your rear cassette (which sounds like where you are doing so). All the freewheel on the motor shaft does is let the pedals go around without causing the motor shaft to spin.

If you mean that having a bike sprocket on the shaft to allow meshing with the regular bike drivetrain, that's totally different from requiring a freewheel on the motor. If you are never going to *only* pedal the bike, but will always use motor assist, there is no need for a freewheel at the motor and you could go for a solidly-mounted sprocket on the motor shaft instead, which will simplify your repair as you won't have to rebuild a broken freewheel, nor will you have to find one to replace it that's strong enough to take the power you're putting thru it. Also, you can use standard parts from places like McMaster-Carr, etc, to mount the sprocket to the shaft, stuff that is *designed* to take the loads of such a motor, and easily mount to and stay on that shaft.

Then you can use whatever size sprocket you need (up to a point) to reach the gearing you need, so that the motor's loaded max speed equals the max speed necessary to get the bike to the max speed you'll ride at. This is important because one reason you can draw lots of current and waste power is that the motor will draw lots more current at lower motor speeds but high motor loads compared to high motor speeds at the same power load.
 
Well, when you figure out the gearing for a drivetrain (pedal or motor) you'd normally calculate backwards from the desired max vehicle speed, and then the RPM of the driving wheel, then each stage back to the drive source(s) so you know what gears to use, or what number of teeth for each sprocket for chain. There are quite a few bicycle gearing calculators that will work for the setup you have since you go thru the regular chain, just with one extra stage to the motor. You'd just manually calculate the ratio out after checking the specs for your motor to know it's RPM at the voltage you're putting into it, preferably with a load similar to yours, but they may not have that rating. Then figure what RPM at the cranks you need, divide that by the motor RPM, and you know the difference in speed you need between them. Then look at the size sprocket you're driving on the cranks, and use the ratio of those speeds to figure out (using fractions) what the size sprocket you need on the motor to get the final RPM at the wheel to get your max speed.


But since you already have yours built, and the question is basically "what is it right now?", you'd have to measure the rear wheel speed. Put your speedometer magnet and sensor on the rear instead of the front, and run it off the ground. The key is that if you don't have your gearing setup right, the motor is going to draw way more current than it needs to to get you to and keep you at that max speed, or any speed between them. Probably if you are close to the right gearing now, you can simply shift gears on the rear cassette and see a difference in the current flow, if you have setup a current measurement as suggested. That can point you in the right direction for gearing, possibly. But calculating it first is a better idea, since otherwise you can end up quite far off and end up geared for something silly like 500kph. ;) That means a lot of wasted power since the motor will never ever be running anywhere close to it's optimal RPM (which is usually at the top end of it's RPM range).
 
Regarding the wiring issue, have you thoroughly fixed the connectors/lugs yet? If not, your wires could be heating up from that alone, as the heat from a not-so-good connection spreads thru the copper. It doesn't have to be the wires that are insufficient diameter. Bad connections make more heat that too small a wire, most of the time. :)

For soldering those lugs, I recommend that with them disconnected from the controller/battery/etc, you heat them gently with a little pocket propane torch, unless you have a several-hundred-watt soldering iron. Otherwise you probably won't get the lugs hot enough for the solder to adhere to them. Just don't heat them so much that the insulation on the wires starts smoking. ;) A little heating will stay for long enough to feed the solder in, usually; sometimes it requires a little reheating periodically as you do it. First, after pulling the flame away, just touch the solder to the outside of the lug, to see if it melts. Once it does you're ready for the next part. If the crimp is good, then it will heat the wire quickly, so feed the solder into the *wire*, not the lug, so you'll know if it's heating properly. If it's not, stop there and redo the crimp until it does.

Regarding the current, how do you know it's 375A? Have you setup an ammeter, or a voltmeter across a known resistance length of wire to measure it? I would guess it is not anywhere near that high, because I don't think your batteries can produce that kind of current, based on the specs you posted for them. Probably not even 1/3 of that for more than a few seconds, but without measuring there is no way to know.


I can tell you from experience (mostly with CrazyBike2) that until you start measuring and calculating things out (which is not fun, but necessary), you're likely to continue to have various undesireable surprises with the setup. It's a lot more fun to just experiment, sometimes, but when you actually want to just go out and ride, it's way more fun to have done the work right the first time so stuff doesn't break 10 miles from home. ;) Or sometimes worse, 5 feet down the road, or as soon as you hit the throttle, etc. :( That's disappointing and discouraging, to me, and it has happened a lot.
 
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