Eastwood’s first battery build

Need help with cell configuration.
30s 12p with two cell walls joined in parallel. Each cell wall is 30s 6p 180 cells.

This being an odd shaped battery, it’s hard for me to wrap my head around the cell configuration. If I were building a perfectly square/rectangular pack, let’s say 30s cells long, it makes sense of how to connect series and parallel connections. With this odd shaped battery, I’m not sure how I should group the cells together??

The busbar style I’m using is in the picture below.

0AB7D9BA-B073-4A04-8F29-A909569A9A93.jpeg46401CEF-3A97-44F3-AB4B-FC5FA02A0D98.jpeg
 
This doesn't answer your question, but it looks like you have squared cell holders, but offset busbars. Is that correct?
Yes, I’m using squared cell holders, but that busbar picture is just an example. They make those busbars staggered and squared shaped.
 

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Phew. It would be exactly my kind of mistake to order squared holders and offset busbars.
Yeah WELLGO have cell holders/spacers as well, and if I would’ve known at the time, I would’ve just purchased from them. Ken at WELLGO said they can make those busbars based on the dimensions of the cell holders. Then obviously a drawling of the cell layout.

Do you have any suggestions for my cell layout? I’ve been scratching my head for several days trying to figure this out. 😅
This being my first battery build, trying to do this with an odd shaped battery pack is confusing lol.



Need help with cell configuration.
30s 12p with two cell walls joined in parallel. Each cell wall is 30s 6p 180 cells.

This being an odd shaped battery, it’s hard for me to wrap my head around the cell configuration. If I were building a perfectly square/rectangular pack, let’s say 30s cells long, it makes sense of how to connect series and parallel connections. With this odd shaped battery, I’m not sure how I should group the cells together??

The busbar style I’m using is in the picture below.

View attachment 333981View attachment 333982
If anyone can chime in on this question above 👆
 
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There are some cell configurators out there that might help. Unfortunately my google-fu seems to have evaporated today, or else google has just decided to not cooperate, which it does sometimes; none of the things I can find under any possible search terms are useful for laying out the parallel groups within a particular pack shape, to give you the busbar shape.

I knwo they exist...and I'm sure there are links to them in the various battery build threads and probably the spotwelder threads...but I couldn't find those either.

This one just does pack shapes, but it's useful for that part.
they also have an ebike system configurator
that helps pickout what motor/etc you'd need to do some general thing, though you're well past that point (and I don't know how accurate it is and it's limited to bicycle size stuff AFAICT).
 
Eastwood let me throw this one at you a brand new product from battery hookup.
Just saw it yesterday and I need a small battery spot welder I don't want to pay $400.
 
There are some cell configurators out there that might help. Unfortunately my google-fu seems to have evaporated today, or else google has just decided to not cooperate, which it does sometimes; none of the things I can find under any possible search terms are useful for laying out the parallel groups within a particular pack shape, to give you the busbar shape.

I knwo they exist...and I'm sure there are links to them in the various battery build threads and probably the spotwelder threads...but I couldn't find those either.

This one just does pack shapes, but it's useful for that part.
they also have an ebike system configurator
that helps pickout what motor/etc you'd need to do some general thing, though you're well past that point (and I don't know how accurate it is and it's limited to bicycle size stuff AFAICT).

Ok thanks! Yeah, I need to go back through the “spot welding thread”, because I remember seeing images now that were odd shape builds.
 
Just saw it yesterday and I need a small battery spot welder I don't want to pay $400.
First time seeing this one! It says can spot wield up to 0.3 nickel. I wonder if there’s any reviews on this spot welder yet.

I plan on trying this 801D, it’s $279 tho. https://a.co/d/7ED86jC
The good thing buying it from Amazon, can add 3 year warranty for 34 bucks.
 
I was able to order the cells tonight! Finally came back in stock. Went with 370cells. Plan to go with 30s 12p which is 360 cells. Got the 10 extra as backups if any of the cells or not evenly matched. Will use any extras left over for my 2nd battery build on the bomber clone frame.
 
I link to the welder you were talking about on paper sounds really good.
I tried to look up WELLGO and only found a sells page.
Do you have a better link for the WELLGO products ?
 
Thanks for the link were you able to buy the bus bars from logo as you need them in your layout ?
Did you get the spot welder that you link to as I wonder what model you ended up with and how you liked it running on 110 volts.
 
Hey eastwood, nice build! A lot of information to unpack throughout this thread. Looks like you have been getting lots of quality information and luckily most things have been answered very well in my opinion. As others have said this is your build, and do it your way and what makes you feel most comfortable. Nonetheless ill drop my two cents in the bucket.

I have built about 10 battery packs now so by no means would I claim to be an expert. All 10 batteries were made using molicel p42a cells like you are using. Funny enough my most recent battery build is a 21s17p pack and it is oddly shaped, maybe even more so than yours. Ill get back to that….

Some people would say I am careless or reckless for doing so, but after doing basic internal resistance tests on a few hundred new cells, nothing really extensive as other have proposed, I stopped worrying about it. You have the whole internet coming at you from the most conservative battery builders to what some may consider careless and reckless builders like myself. Don’t get me wrong I use solid construction techniques. I make custom 3d printed cell spaces with a very tight fit, I use 0.2mm thick copper busbars with robust welds, and take a number of other measures to increase durability and reduce vibrations within the battery pack like anyone should. All of these packs have been used strictly for off road applications.

Despite my methods I have yet to have one pack experience failure of any kind. I guess some would call that luck. Point is some people are particularly anxious and paranoid and have fallen subject to extensive and extremely time consuming testing methods which are usually only reserved for packs being built with used cells.

I visited chi battery systems factory last year who have made thousands of custom aftermarket surron batteries…guess what cells they use. P42a. Guess what they don’t do…cell testing. Why? They don’t have time to waste (not that they don’t care about safety, they certainly do), and the cells are validated and brand new. Care to guess how many catastrophic battery failures they have had (not including people running into trees and cars)? Zero, none, zip. They dont test for ir, capacity, none of it. Sure they have testers and the capability to do so, but over time they realized it was a worthless endeavor. Their number one source of problems…the bms. 1 in 100 fail right out of the box. Loss of pack functionality, but nothing catastrophic. Next in line…balance wires shorting out or being damaged. No catastrophic results from those failures either. I think the owner said that once or twice out of thousands of batteries sold they have a had to replace a pack for someone because a cell went bad in a p group.

So maybe for some all this testing is worth it, not for me. Up to you. I just thought you and others could benefit from hearing the other side of all this testing. If you arent using brand new, genuine cells, yeah 100% go the extra mile.

For laying out odd cell configurations I optimize for the widest conductor path between each p group as possible. If you are using at least 0.2mm copper (probably 0.5 by the looks of it)…dont get too stuck in the weeds. If two or even three cells are passing your max current per cell of 26 amps through a single cell width sized cross section of 21mm and some change…you are going to be just fine. That 26 amp condition is also going to happen extremely infrequently and for very short time based on this discussion thus far. Good luck on the rest of your build. Im almost finished with mine, just waiting on my cl1000 to arrive!

P.S. in summary I believe that when using brand new, genuine cells from a reputable manufacturer and supplier it is all the other aspects of your build that are going to be the determining factor for the outcome of your build, its longevity, and safety. I havent seen anyone talk about cell level fusing? Ive seen multiple people attempt cell level fusing and ends in flames. Too many failure points, too time consuming, and mitigates a scenario that is extremely unlikely when compared to other failure modes. Similarly, yes you are mitigating some risk with extensive testing, but if I had 100 weights to place on a build for its level of safety, i would put very few (maybe 1) on testing when using new genuine cells. The majority of the weight goes to overcharge, overheat, overload, poor welds, poor vibration dampening, hitting trees, meteor strikes, etc.
 
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Hey eastwood, nice build! A lot of information to unpack throughout this thread. Looks like you have been getting lots of quality information and luckily most things have been answered very well in my opinion. As others have said this is your build, and do it your way and what makes you feel most comfortable. Nonetheless ill drop my two cents in the bucket.

I have built about 10 battery packs now so by no means would I claim to be an expert. All 10 batteries were made using molicel p42a cells like you are using. Funny enough my most recent battery build is a 21s17p pack and it is oddly shaped, maybe even more so than yours. Ill get back to that….

Some people would say I am careless or reckless for doing so, but after doing basic internal resistance tests on a few hundred new cells, nothing really extensive as other have proposed, I stopped worrying about it. You have the whole internet coming at you from the most conservative battery builders to what some may consider careless and reckless builders like myself. Don’t get me wrong I use solid construction techniques. I make custom 3d printed cell spaces with a very tight fit, I use 0.2mm thick copper busbars with robust welds, and take a number of other measures to increase durability and reduce vibrations within the battery pack like anyone should. All of these packs have been used strictly for off road applications.

Despite my methods I have yet to have one pack experience failure of any kind. I guess some would call that luck. Point is some people are particularly anxious and paranoid and have fallen subject to extensive and extremely time consuming testing methods which are usually only reserved for packs being built with used cells.

I visited chi battery systems factory last year who have made thousands of custom aftermarket surron batteries…guess what cells they use. P42a. Guess what they don’t do…cell testing. Why? They don’t have time to waste (not that they don’t care about safety, they certainly do), and the cells are validated and brand new. Care to guess how many catastrophic battery failures they have had (not including people running into trees and cars)? Zero, none, zip. They dont test for ir, capacity, none of it. Sure they have testers and the capability to do so, but over time they realized it was a worthless endeavor. Their number one source of problems…the bms. 1 in 100 fail right out of the box. Loss of pack functionality, but nothing catastrophic. Next in line…balance wires shorting out or being damaged. No catastrophic results from those failures either. I think the owner said that once or twice out of thousands of batteries sold they have a had to replace a pack for someone because a cell went bad in a p group.

So maybe for some all this testing is worth it, not for me. Up to you. I just thought you and others could benefit from hearing the other side of all this testing. If you arent using brand new, genuine cells, yeah 100% go the extra mile.

For laying out odd cell configurations I optimize for the widest conductor path between each p group as possible. If you are using at least 0.2mm copper (probably 0.5 by the looks of it)…dont get too stuck in the weeds. If two or even three cells are passing your max current per cell of 26 amps through a single cell width sized cross section of 21mm and some change…you are going to be just fine. That 26 amp condition is also going to happen extremely infrequently and for very short time based on this discussion thus far. Good luck on the rest of your build. Im almost finished with mine, just waiting on my cl1000 to arrive!

P.S. in summary I believe that when using brand new, genuine cells from a reputable manufacturer and supplier it is all the other aspects of your build that are going to be the determining factor for the outcome of your build, its longevity, and safety. I havent seen anyone talk about cell level fusing? Ive seen multiple people attempt cell level fusing and ends in flames. Too many failure points, too time consuming, and mitigates a scenario that is extremely unlikely when compared to other failure modes. Similarly, yes you are mitigating some risk with extensive testing, but if I had 100 weights to place on a build for its level of safety, i would put very few (maybe 1) on testing when using new genuine cells. The majority of the weight goes to overcharge, overheat, overload, poor welds, poor vibration dampening, hitting trees, meteor strikes, etc.

Somehow, I’m just seeing your reply. Thank you very much for all the input! Yes, I agree. I don’t tend to do the extensive testing on the cells since they’re brand new and quality.., maybe a little bit of laziness lol.
 
Thanks for the link were you able to buy the bus bars from logo as you need them in your layout ?
Did you get the spot welder that you link to as I wonder what model you ended up with and how you liked it running on 110 volts.
Just seeing your reply as well.
I’m working with wellgo now with the busbars. I keep changing the battery size and configuration lol, so it’s been holding up the battery build.

No, I haven’t purchased that spot welder yet, but will soon. Letting the wallet recover 😅
Still plan to go with the 801D.
 
Update on the battery below 👇
I’ll keep this thread updated as well once I start the battery build.

4D0D3431-56DD-4425-A31A-BCDBAAFAAA09.jpeg958ED79A-9F7B-418C-807C-7FF1307750CC.jpeg
 
What mid-drive is that ? What controller did you settle on and at what amps are you going to use it ? Did you choose a BMS or are you ? I have the xiaxia. The one with the blue elephant 🐘
 
What mid-drive is that ? What controller did you settle on and at what amps are you going to use it ? Did you choose a BMS or are you ? I have the xiaxia. The one with the blue elephant 🐘

Its the QS138 v3 70h
Controller is the CL1000 3Shul 🤓
Excited about this controller as it runs off VESC software which makes it really tunable.
For the BMS not sure yet, maybe this one👇
6D05186D-2AF6-4598-9540-7832E5502837.jpeg
 
The people at Barry hookup have a BMS Bluetooth. 300amp. I bought from them once and got a good deal they're very nice on the phone and they're in the USA owned by a family . You can come up by the phone and fix the problem if you do have one it just looks like a beast. We also have the donut shape insulators for your top your positive no I don't work for battery hookup.
I reread through your thread and saw that you're going 30s. Oh well
 
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I reread through your thread and saw that you're going 30s. Oh well

Well I was, now I'm thinking 28s 11p just because it fits nicely. I’m hoping 4.6kwh will be enough range. Originally was planning something close to 6kwh but from observing the weights from other builds, it’s just too heavy for a trail bike. Especially when riding in the mountains through twisty technical terrain.

The stark Varg is 6.3kwh and the bike weight is 263lbs which is heavy. Well, that’s decent for how big the battery is but just overall too heavy for a trail bike.
 
Eastwood have you ridden a bike like the one you are building ?

Yes, I’ve actually tested this bike five or six times with a 72V battery and my sabvoton controller. Had the dc amps150 phase450. It ripped but needs more power and top speed, that’s why i’m now going with the higher voltage for more top speed. It was 45 mph at 72 V with 13t 50t gearing.


On trails I probably need about 200amps, probably more for hill climbs. I’ve never ridden anything over 20S so this will be interesting with the higher voltage.

If I build the bike with the 28S 11p the total weight should be right at 240lbs. About the same weight as a stock, Rmz250.


D2BA50C0-9F36-4DBB-8E59-BCAC37A2AE68.jpeg
 
Eastwood,
For the BMS
Check out JBD's aliexpress store,
pick a BMS with bluetooth, but I would suggest you use the bms to charge/balance the batt and not run the motor through it.
You could use the BMS to run a relay but at your voltages you have to find a BMS that will trigger one.

that is some tight fit. :)
 
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