Leaf / leafmotor / leafbike high efficiency 1500w motor

vladrov said:

The motor is 137mm in width. What is the actual O.L.D. width from your experience with space for a disk brake? Around 140mm?

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I haven't used the casette version of the motor but i can tell you that 2mm of spread is ok on pretty much any bike

vladrov said:

1. Is there a way to resize the motor to fit better in 135mm dropouts? Grinding or something similar? Because of the disk brake, if possible, maybe this has to be done on the cassette side?

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I'd worry about it when you get there

vladrov said:

1. Is waterproofing the motor recommended and if yes, what glue/silicone is the best?

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Waterproofing a hub motor is very difficu.t but potted motors seem to have some success. Searching for threads on that here should turn up some great info.

vladrov said:

1. Is the Grin Tech Torque Arm V7 a good choice and sufficient for use on aluminum frames?

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Yes these are the best torque arms and i recommend a pair of them.

vladrov said:

1. Do you recommend lacing the motor myself (I don't have experience) or should I find a nearby workshop to do it for me? Can I measure everything myself and use the Grin Tech spoke simulator for the lacing or do I need additional information from Leaf (like dishing offset, etc.)?

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I recommend getting the motor wheel itself, leaf builds good motor wheels.
Don't buy their controller, it's garbage.

vladrov said:

I've chosen to use the cassette version of the Leaf motor.

1. The motor is 137mm in width. What is the actual O.L.D. width from your experience with space for a disk brake? Around 140mm?
2. Is there a way to resize the motor to fit better in 135mm dropouts? Grinding or something similar? Because of the disk brake, if possible, maybe this has to be done on the cassette side?

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137mm is before adding the washers that need to go between the shoulder/step of the axle and the inner side of the dropouts. That will bring you close to 140mm.
The inner washer actually provides the right spacing for disc caliper alignment with the disc. As with most hubs, you should research the dimensions of the caliper to make sure it clears the hub motor cover on that side.
Is there a reason you are going with the cassette? From a maintenance perspective, it's easy to replace a freewheel, but more difficult to replace a free hub in case that wears out. I've replace my freewheels a couple of times since the pawls/ratcheting mechanisms seem to wear out more, since you end up "coasting" more with an ebike. Plus, you won't need a lot of gears. I never shift.

vladrov said:

I've chosen to use the cassette version of the Leaf motor.

1. The motor is 137mm in width. What is the actual O.L.D. width from your experience with space for a disk brake? Around 140mm?
2. Is there a way to resize the motor to fit better in 135mm dropouts? Grinding or something similar? Because of the disk brake, if possible, maybe this has to be done on the cassette side?
3. Is waterproofing the motor recommended and if yes, what glue/silicone is the best?
4. Is the Grin Tech Torque Arm V7 a good choice and sufficient for use on aluminum frames?
5. Do you recommend lacing the motor myself (I don't have experience) or should I find a nearby workshop to do it for me? Can I measure everything myself and use the Grin Tech spoke simulator for the lacing or do I need additional information from Leaf (like dishing offset, etc.)?

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You're probably going to need to make two spacers, one that goes underneath the cassette around the freehub, and the other on the outside of the cassette to keep the small cog from being pressed against the frame and rubbing or locking up when you try to pedal. I had this issue with a Leafbike 1500W 4T with 7-speed cassette built into a 26" wheel, first on my KMX trike, and again on my DB mountainbike. Just a heads up, and you'll be able to determine what size you need to make them upon installation.

Anyway, answers:

1. I never measured. The disc rotor does get spaced further away from the center of the axle than it was on the unmotorized wheel the disc rotor came off of. This caused a clearance issue with the stock caliper on a DB mountain bike with the motor installed. I had to hacksaw off part of the pad adjustment screw to keep it from grinding into the case of my motor from lack of clearance. My Avid BB7 caliper did not fit, either.

2. I wouldn't bother. A flathead screwdriver is enough to pry the dropouts open fairly easily. If you must remove the wheel for any reason(such as replacing an inner tube), removing and reinstalling the torque arms will be most of the work/time expended.

3. I never had an issue with water ingress in over 20,000 miles and two years of use. I rode in all weather conditions including thunderstorms and snow/road salt. But my vehicle had a body shell with a wheel well cover. This wheel well did trap lots of dirt, road grime, and salt, but the motor remained relatively free of it inside, noted when I took it apart to replace bearings and Hall sensors.

4. Excellent choice. If you're going to have any regen at all, install one on BOTH rear dropouts. I have a V7 on the drive side and a V4 on the cassette side on my mountainbike using a Leafbike 1500W 4T cassette, and a V7 on the freewheel side and a custom aluminum clamp arm on the drive side of my KMX trike using a Leafbike 1500W 3T freewheel. Both vehicles have the axle snug in those dropouts and it doesn't rock back and forth. Strong regen has proven reliable thus far for hundreds of miles on both vehicles with at least one V7 on each. The downside is that a tire change is a 2 hour ordeal and requires a dedicated toolset that you must carry on long rides in case of a rear flat, or you're not getting that wheel off and back on again.

5. I'd recommend buying the motor built into the size of wheel that you want. Lacing wheels up are a time-consuming pain in the ass if you haven't done it before, and it's difficult to balance/dish it correctly. I didn't get my first attempts quite right and when I try to lace up my front Grin all-axle motors to 16" DOT rims, I am probably going to ask this site for help, because I don't want a failure at 60+ mph and want to make sure I use the right spoke nipples next time around. I'll also have to re-do my rear Leafbike 3T wheel as well. If you ordered it not built into a wheel, you may still be able to change your order if it hasn't shipped out yet, and I would recommend doing so if still possible. Having a shop lace it up for you is going to cost hundreds of dollars more than having Leafbike do it in-house.

Cowardlyduck said:

Hey I feel the same way and ride recumbents too, but let's try a keep it respectful and on topic guys.

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What is the topic again?

vladrov said:

1. Is waterproofing the motor recommended and if yes, what glue/silicone is the best?

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I ride consistently in a wet high-precipitation maritime climate. My DD hubmotors have been doing fine for several years/ several thousand miles, no problems from water. Make sure to maintain a drip loop for the wires.

vladrov said:

1. Is the Grin Tech Torque Arm V7 a good choice and sufficient for use on aluminum frames?

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Among the best!

vladrov said:

1. Do you recommend lacing the motor myself (I don't have experience) or should I find a nearby workshop to do it for me? Can I measure everything myself and use the Grin Tech spoke simulator for the lacing or do I need additional information from Leaf (like dishing offset, etc.)?

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Ultimately depends on your skill and attention to detail. DIY gets you a better rim of your choice, and appropriately sized spokes for much better reliability, longevity, and performance. Most pre-laced hubmotor wheelsets come with low quality rims and overly-thick spokes.

I did my first wheelbuild following Grin's helpful videos. GREAT results, still going strong no problems many happy miles since!

Wheel Building - Learn

Crack developing on ebikeling rim sidewall-- need to repair | Endless Sphere DIY EV Forum

More Wheelbuilding links

E-HP said:

Is there a reason you are going with the cassette?

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Because my bike currently has a 9-speed cassette, I think it will be easier and cheaper to use the sprockets, the derailleur and the shifter that I already have.
I plan to remove the largest sprocket and fit the remaining ones onto the 7-speed cassette freewheel, as the spacing between the sprockets on a 9-speed is smaller. I will adjust the limit screws of the derailleur to work with one less sprocket.

I'm not completely sure if this will work. What do you think?

Also, does Shimano still produce components for fewer than 9 speeds, in case I choose a 7-speed freewheel?

vladrov said:

Because my bike currently has a 9-speed cassette, I think it will be easier and cheaper to use the sprockets, the derailleur and the shifter that I already have.
I plan to remove the largest sprocket and fit the remaining ones onto the 7-speed cassette freewheel, as the spacing between the sprockets on a 9-speed is smaller. I will adjust the limit screws of the derailleur to work with one less sprocket.

I'm not completely sure if this will work. What do you think?

Also, does Shimano still produce components for fewer than 9 speeds, in case I choose a 7-speed freewheel?

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The Leafbike 1500W cassette models only have room for 7-spd. 9sp mech will not cooperate nicely with this due to the indexing, and you'll have to spend a lot of time playing with this in effort to get it to work. I suspect you won't succeed at this sinc thse components were mad for 9sp with 9 gears present, but you can still try.

You will probably need to order an inexpensive 7sp cassette and 7sp rear derailleur to get everything to work right. Fortunately, that's less than $70 in parts, assuming you need a new shift cable and indexed shifter to go with it.

There are online retailers that will sell a 7sp Shimano rear-derailleur and inexpensive 7-spd cassettes from comapnies like Sunrun and Sunrace as well as nicer brands like SRAM and Shimano that will work just fine with a Shimano 7sp rear derailleur and any cheap 7spd grip or trigger shifter(Shimano still makes those too).

vladrov said:

Also, does Shimano still produce components for fewer than 9 speeds, in case I choose a 7-speed freewheel?

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Yeah, it's called Tourney:


Available in 7 speed indexed or 6 speed friction.

P.S. There is also a very narrow spacing type of 7 speed called "downhill 7 speed" made by SRAM and Box. This is different than conventional 7 speed because it uses 11 speed cog spacing and 11 speed chain. Example of 7 speed downhill cassette below:


Obviously don't use this cassette with Shimano Tourney.

vladrov said:

Because my bike currently has a 9-speed cassette, I think it will be easier and cheaper to use the sprockets, the derailleur and the shifter that I already have.
I plan to remove the largest sprocket and fit the remaining ones onto the 7-speed cassette freewheel, as the spacing between the sprockets on a 9-speed is smaller. I will adjust the limit screws of the derailleur to work with one less sprocket.

Click to expand...

Because you are using the same cassette minus big cogs, all you should need are some cassette spacers to fine tune the
cassette lock ring depth.

I do this kind of thing regularly.

vladrov said:

I've chosen to use the cassette version of the Leaf motor.

1. The motor is 137mm in width. What is the actual O.L.D. width from your experience with space for a disk brake? Around 140mm?

Click to expand...

It depends on the arrangement of washers inside vs outside of the dropouts. The cassette version has a smaller shoulder diameter on the right side axle end, so it needs some kind of washer there to prevent digging into the host frame. Steel frames are preferable for this reason, and also because they are easier to modify to match whatever spacing you need.

International Standard dimension for distance from rear axle shoulder to rotor mounting face is 15mm. Spacing to any other dimension will complicate brake installation.

vladrov said:

1. Do you recommend lacing the motor myself (I don't have experience) or should I find a nearby workshop to do it for me?

Click to expand...

If you have a nearby bike shop with experience building hub motor wheels, that's probably best. If your local shop builds wheels but isn't experienced building them for hub motors, they will be likely to make common but serious mistakes like using too many spoke crossings, lacing with inadequate lateral bracing angle, or using too thick a spoke gauge.

The Toecutter said:

The Leafbike 1500W cassette models only have room for 7-spd. 9sp mech will not cooperate nicely with this due to the indexing, and you'll have to spend a lot of time playing with this in effort to get it to work.

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Eight sprockets from a 9-speed cassette fit nicely on a 7-speed freehub body. I don't think that's a good enough reason to give up the superior axle of the freewheel version, but it will allow use of the original 9-speed shifting gear.

Some questions answered by the Leaf Team:

Are the differences between the "60V 2000W rear spoke hub motor" and the "48V 52V 1500W rear hub motor" only the kV?

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1. They are no too much diffenece,nearly the same. Both can customize different KV

What is the length of the motor axle?

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2. Total length of cassette shaft is 202mm (After installed, cable side has about 28mm, cassette side has about 18mm) - This cassette motor's dropout reach about 137mm ~ 140mm

How much space is there between the disc brake rotor and the motor housing?

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3. about 18mm

Is there a built-in temperature sensor in the motor?

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4. Default: KTY84-130 temp inside motor , we also have NTC10K

In what kV variants do you sell the motor?

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5. Default: about 14kv @60v (Also, can make other 13kv,12kv....)


They also sent me a better dimensional diagram:

I will ask if they can make the motor with a longer axle. Based on my measurements, what do you think I need?

Measurements:

• Frame width: 11 mm
• Torque arm: 11 mm (but includes 1, 2, and 3 mm washers, if needed)
• M14 Nut: 15 mm or less
• Extra space for washers on each side: 5 mm

This makes around a minimum of 46 mm of shaft needed on each side of the motor.


Can it be true that they can make the motor in 12, 13 and 14 kV variants, like they wrote in the email?

I thought the variants are (or close to):

• 3T: 17.49 kV
• 4T: 13.16 kV
• 5T: 10.49 kV

Chalo said:

Eight sprockets from a 9-speed cassette fit nicely on a 7-speed freehub body. I don't think that's a good enough reason to give up the superior axle of the freewheel version, but it will allow use of the original 9-speed shifting gear.

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I ordered my 3T as a freewheel version precisely because of the axle. I'm going to be doing 80+ mph top end, and while the axle is not what I consider adequate, the cassette version is worse.

My worry with the cassette version was a 200A launch causing things to bend, given the unequal thickness on each side. While it didn't bend the brief time I tried 10 kW/200A phase current on the 4T cassette, I was expecting something to break. Surprisingly, it didn't. I melted some phase wires and fried some Hall effect sensors instead, so the issues were electrical, and not mechanical.

Earlier in the thread it was reported the 170mm cassette version had 16mm axle on the disc side and 14mm on the freehub side:


So why does Leaf feel the need to downgrade the 135mm 1500 watt motor to 12mm on the freehub side?

If the cassette version has 14 mm on one side and 12 mm on the other, how does the hub motor stay straight?

I imagine it like this:

Chalo said:

Eight sprockets from a 9-speed cassette fit nicely on a 7-speed freehub body. I don't think that's a good enough reason to give up the superior axle of the freewheel version, but it will allow use of the original 9-speed shifting gear.

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Chalo...why/what is superior about the freewheel axle version?
Thanks

MAC told me the freewheel version of their motor is stronger "if" you plan to pedal a lot but I don't remember why...perhaps less flexing of the side cover but I can't remember for sure.

Freewheels are so simple, easy, and inexpensive. A cassette does give you more flexibility regarding your gear selection but they can be more of a challenge to get everything working just right. I found that all I need is two or three gears after installing my motor when I am running a Direct Drive Hub Motor like the Leaf but a 7 speed is more useful with a Mid Drive like the BBSHD but only because my speed range varies more widely since I ride off road with the Mid Drive.

Bullfrog said:

I found that all I need is two or three gears after installing my motor when I am running a Direct Drive Hub Motor like the Leaf

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Which 2 or 3 cogs do you use with your leaf bike 1500w?

Also what is your tire diameter and chainring size?

ebike4healthandfitness said:

Which 2 or 3 cogs do you use with your leaf bike 1500w?

Also what is your tire diameter and chainring size?

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I am running a SCHWALBE PICK-UP 24x2.6 rear tire, 22T rear gear, and a 32T chain ring.

Bullfrog said:

Chalo...why/what is superior about the freewheel axle version?
Thanks

MAC told me the freewheel version of their motor is stronger "if" you plan to pedal a lot but I don't remember why...perhaps less flexing of the side cover but I can't remember for sure.

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The axle end that passes through the motor's splined freehub is much smaller than the one on the threaded freewheel version. This means not only is the axle weaker and less rigid on that side, but the faces of the axle shoulder that bear on the frame (or on a washer used to protect the frame) are much smaller and more likely to indent the mating parts or to become mushroomed, thereby effectively loosening the axle nut.

I noticed Justin mentioned that there were a number of through axle geared motors at the show . Curious as to what they will be.

For Leaf, at what lower Kv / high turn do you reach the point of now return with a 20” wheel? I have been looking at various Leaf 5T adjusted configurations in the motor simulator vs the GMac 10T, SX, Grin Fat slow and Bafang G6X. the simulator is certainly a great tool for looking at different controllers, voltages and current affects on the different motors. I seem to get glitches every now and then, so I wasn’t certain changing the Kv on the 5T is giving me accurate numbers. Probably user error.

Bullfrog said:

I am running a SCHWALBE PICK-UP 24x2.6 rear tire, 22T rear gear, and a 32T chain ring.

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Are there other rear cogs you are using?

Chalo said:

The axle end that passes through the motor's splined freehub is much smaller than the one on the threaded freewheel version. This means not only is the axle weaker and less rigid on that side, but the faces of the axle shoulder that bear on the frame (or on a washer used to protect the frame) are much smaller and more likely to indent the mating parts or to become mushroomed, thereby effectively loosening the axle nut.

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Regen did that to my KMX velomobile, even with a Grin v3 torquearm installed on the cassette side. That almost damaged my dropout and I lost the axle nut. I'd expect for this never to happen with a properly installed Grin v7 torquearm, but the v3 was not up to the task. The non-drive side got a clamping torque plate, which is what kept the rear wheel on the trike and prevented further damage. Now with a 3T freewheel motor with a Grin v7 torquearm on the freewheel side and a torque plate on the non-drive side, that axle's not wiggling itself out.

One thing that concerns me about the Leaf 1500w motor is that while it is able to run cool and efficient at 2000w (with the appropriate sized wheel) I don't think the average shark battery pack from EM3EV will be cool and efficient if used with such a combination.

For example, Samsung 35E cells are rated at 8 amps max continuous current. Since the largest shark pack from EM3EV holds 70 cells for 14S 5P that puts the pack's maximum continuous current of 40 amps (re: 5 x 8 amps = 40 amps) and yet going 40 mph with the typical bike from this thread will pull more than that thus pushing the BMS into its burst mode of 55 amps maximum.

Even the EM3EV Triangle battery pack at 14S 6P looks inadequate for the average bike build in this thread:



So if a person wants to push 40 mph with the chassis commonly found in this thread the battery should likewise be much bigger in order to match the efficiency of the motor. Pushing small batteries to max continuous power draw is hard on battery efficiency as well battery life.

Best to choose a bigger battery in order match discharge efficiency with motor efficiency. What is the point of having a motor with 90% efficiency at speed if the battery is simultaneously poorly efficient. In some cases (e.g. chassis limiting battery size) perhaps it is better to have a motor with less efficiency but with higher torque per amp when using certain small batteries.

Just to clarify, velomobile is not what am referring to in the previous post.

Velomobile's EM3EV battery would run cool as a cucumber (and likewise be very efficient ) not only at 40 mph but at speeds over 40 mph as well.