20kw continuous motor enough for small 2000lb 40-45mph car ?

LOL! good find on that video. That water cooling unit looks next to useless - basically wicks heat off the case.

Did you see that guys' youtube videos? he installed 300AH of 72V lifepo4 into a renault espace minivan ( >3,600lbs stock ) and was trying to move the entire thing with just one motor. Must have weighed like 4,000lbs, at least..

[youtube]huhPUXAU6gA[/youtube]

And you guys looked at me like i was crazy when i brought this up... :lol:
 
OK.. some dude is selling a 2001 Honda insight with a dead IMA battery for $2,000.. O_O I might pounce on that, and this project might change..
 
neptronix said:
OK.. some dude is selling a 2001 Honda insight with a dead IMA battery for $2,000.. O_O I might pounce on that, and this project might change..


What KW motor is in the insight ? can it be hacked to do 50 ish mph ?
 
10kw unfortunately.
 
o00scorpion00o said:
neptronix said:
OK.. some dude is selling a 2001 Honda insight with a dead IMA battery for $2,000.. O_O I might pounce on that, and this project might change..


What KW motor is in the insight ? can it be hacked to do 50 ish mph ?

Rated at 10kW. An ORNL report shows that it can do more more power and higher speeds
It's an earlier model of this motor. http://www.ebay.com/itm/06-10-Honda-Civic-Hybrid-IMA-Integrated-Motor-Assist-Electric-Engine-OEM-/390387178899?pt=Motors_Car_Truck_Parts_Accessories&hash=item5ae4e39d93&vxp=mtr
 
Neptronix, this guy has one with a bad engine for $1500 http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=1&t=44692&p=662040&hilit=honda+insight#p662117

Also here is more info on a similar IMA motor (slightly newer than the insight motor) that is pretty much the same motor
http://www.osti.gov/bridge/servlets/purl/891260/891260.pdf
 
Peak power rating of 12kw? that's pretty putzy!

The guy i know locally who has a geo metro + lifepo4's on a 12kw continuous ME1003 motor is overheating the motor with his geo metro.

Thanks for the heads up on those cars, but Wisconsin is a bit far away. The nearby one for $2,000 will do for me.
 
Looks like it's a 3 phase brushless motor though! Maybe it could be repurposed as an eBike motor later on, if i do a full conversion :lol:
 
neptronix said:
Looks like it's a 3 phase brushless motor though! Maybe it could be repurposed as an eBike motor later on, if i do a full conversion :lol:

Maybe, but its a very large diameter. It is also very efficient, peaks at 95%. Would be fun to run one at 300V and a bit more peak current. Read that report and it will show you the potential that the motor has.

I would totally go for a $2000 Insight. I want to run one in Hybrid form for awhile until new motor options come out and then convert it to all electric.
 
Yeah, 95% efficiency rocks! I bet you could find one for $200-$300 used if you looked hard enough tho.

It would be a fine bonus to pull one of those outta the car, if you could find a proper controller for it. Would be a tire smoker if hooked up to an ebike :mrgreen:
 
Damnit, someone bought the car just hours after i left.
Kinda hate my life right now, i should have pounced on it, but i didn't come prepared with a way to take it home etc.
 
Hi Neptronix,
bummer you missed out on that buy.
have you considered an air cooled 10k-20k golden motor? you could get a turbine / impeller and suck the air through it. like a vacume cleaner motor but with a dc conversion or a small airconditioner turbine. 3 stage thermostats? stage 1 - low cooling , stage 2 - cooling kicks in with first thermostat on, stage 3 - over heat alarm second thermostat.

good luck
 
I know this is an old thread but it seems doable( I want to convert an old 850 spider(I don’t have one yet) but I am most curious about the heat shedding 3000 watts per hour. Two things that’s 3 out of 20 kw of the total power lost to heat, correct? And is there any simple/easy/cheap way to recapture that energy? I mean if you could recapture 15% of the total energy, that sounds great. Forgive my ignorance, I seem to have it by the dump truck load.
 
I know this is an old thread but it seems doable( I want to convert an old 850 spider(I don’t have one yet) but I am most curious about the heat shedding 3000 watts per hour. Two things that’s 3 out of 20 kw of the total power lost to heat, correct? And is there any simple/easy/cheap way to recapture that energy? I mean if you could recapture 15% of the total energy, that sounds great. Forgive my ignorance, I seem to have it by the dump truck load.
If you have a way to convert spread-out heat from all the various parts generating it (cells, controller, wiring, motor) back into electricity you could use it to stick back into the battery pack.

The problem is recovering that energy in a way that doesn't cause it to be trapped within any of those components (so you can't just enclose them in something to catch it), or else they could be (probably would be) damaged by the heat.

You can use, for instance, liquid cooling in the controller, battery, and motor, each with their own loop, pump, and recovery system (because they will be at different temperatures and you don't want to heat up ones that are cooler, with the heat from hotter ones).

Then the liquid loop of each one is pumped to some device that creates electricity from heat. None of the methods I know anything about are very efficient. Peltiers, Stirling engines to operate a generator, etc.

At the least, the system would have to generate enough electricity at the endpoint after all losses to make up for the energy used up in the pumps, etc. I don't know how much that would be.

A fair bit of the heat is going to be "lost" to the environment before it can be captured; so I don't know how much you'll have to work with for energy salvage.
 
Thank you! It sounds like on a small motor (20kw) even though a heat loss of 15% seems like a lot, getting any appreciable amount of those 3 kw back into usable energy without expending more energy waste, and doing it in cost effective way is unlikely.
Related question, while I am picking your brain.
If I take 52 hp fiat ice motor out , which has what a 60% energy loss to heat, meaning I get to use about 21hp to move the car down the road, and replace it with a 20kw golden motor with the 15% energy/heat loss so it is at a little over 27bhp- 4hp loss or 23 hp, it would be given nothing else changed weight, aerodynamics, etc. probably faster and stronger by nearly 10%. Am I missing something (besides the fact the ev would probably weight at least 10% more due to even a small battery pack…
 
I don't know what actual power you would get out of a specific engine; a dyno could be used to find out for sure how much it produces under various conditions.

But you can guesstimate power required if you can get or measure a weight and CdA figure for the vehicle, and then use the specific driving conditions you have there, weather, terrain, road / etc conditions, in motor or trip or other simulators / calculators around the web to find out how much power it takes, worst case, to do a specific job (speed, acceleration, etc).

Once you know the required power, then you can start looking for electric systems that can do that job. Make sure the battery you choose can easily supply the worst case power demands and capacity required even when it is nearly empty or when it's older; sizing it 25-50% bigger than needed can do that depending on the cells chosen.

As for the actual energy loss in the electric system, that'll depend on where in the powerband the motor is being used most of the time, how efficient the specific motor chosen actually is vs whatever claims are made for it (almost none supply a real dyno chart), how good the battery itself is (voltage sag under load is lost energy), how good the controller is, etc.
 
OK.. some dude is selling a 2001 Honda insight with a dead IMA battery for $2,000.. O_O I might pounce on that, and this project might change..

Based on decades as a gearhead, I've found that buying something close to what you want to end up with is cheaper than making massive changes...no matter how cheap your donor is.

I'd buy a Leaf with a worn battery long before I'd put a kit in an ICE donor....those tire Leafs go for under $4k around here.
 
The closest thing to what i want is the stick shift Mazda 2 i own.

I ended up buying that Honda Insight but hated it's low power, poor visibility ( too many murder attempts from tall trucks in that vehicle ) and an intolerable ride quality on 14" wheels on our crappy roads.

With some hypermiling ( 65-70mph, utilize neutral whenever possible ), car lightening, and light aero modding, i can get into the low to mid 60mpg's on the highway.. only a little short of what i got with the Honda Insight.

They have yet to make a vehicle more ideal for me, although the new Prius is a close match.


Leaf would be a good project car for someone willing to build a replacement battery. I would prefer a smaller car than that myself.
 
If I take 52 hp fiat ice motor out , which has what a 60% energy loss to heat, meaning I get to use about 21hp to move the car down the road, and replace it with a 20kw golden motor with the 15% energy/heat loss so it is at a little over 27bhp- 4hp loss or 23 hp, it would be given nothing else changed weight, aerodynamics, etc. probably faster and stronger by nearly 10%. Am I missing something (besides the fact the ev would probably weight at least 10% more due to even a small battery pack…
Your first premise there is flawed in at least two ways:
  1. ICE is approx. only 20% efficient, with nearly 70% of the potential energy in the fuel is wasted as heat (mostly thru the radiator).
  2. The ICE HP rating is measured after the excess generated heat is disposed of. Meaning your 52 HP Fiat ICE is theoretically generating 52 HP, but wasting 70% of the consumed fuel along the way as waste heat.

 
Your first premise there is flawed in at least two ways:
  1. ICE is approx. only 20% efficient, with nearly 70% of the potential energy in the fuel is wasted as heat (mostly thru the radiator).
  2. The ICE HP rating is measured after the excess generated heat is disposed of. Meaning your 52 HP Fiat ICE is theoretically generating 52 HP, but wasting 70% of the consumed fuel along the way as waste heat.

Thank you, so to compare it to an ev, it makes closer to 200 up and wastes 150 or so? Wow! That’s a lot of power from a 903cc engine. But I e we observed as hho us described as power after friction and other losses.
 
I don't know what the numbers are. I used your 53 HP number for the Fiat in the example.
 
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