2nd ride ever, tire breaks, fml... what to do.

[lowquality]

So finally got my bike back from the shop, rode a fun 10 mile drive, was great. T
Although its stuck in a permanent low gear so you cant pedal with thr motor once it gets past 15 km/p. All was good thought.

<iframe width="420" height="315" src="https://www.youtube.com/embed/SY8iq0d5Y1o" frameborder="0" allowfullscreen></iframe>

https://youtu.be/SY8iq0d5Y1o

Well today I took the bike on a ride, decided to take an offroad shortcut. Once i got back on the road I noticed a strange noise so I stopped and checked, and noticed my tire was woobleing and qas brushing up against the frame. Then i noticed my spokes were coming off (6 all together i believe) my nuts were still tight on the frame so the tire was not loose. Well regardless im bummed out. $200 to get the thing installed, and 3 week wait due to bad service, only to have the bike die the next day. Sigh, i called lunarcycles but they said i had to email their support -

Anyways the question: should i just try and get my $ back for the battery and motor

Should i just return the motor and buy a better/different brand?

I just hope i can figure out how to install it myself, i will need a freewheel tool thats for sure.

Doubt i could take the motor apart and replace spokes, but does that mean this wheel isnt strong enough for my fat butt? Err


Also, can you hear the rattle sound of the magnets as my tire turns? That wasnt like that the first time i rode kt, or maybe i simply did. Not noticeit.

[youtube]https://youtu.be/5TicsDB-wmQ[/youtube]

https://youtu.be/5TicsDB-wmQ


*** updating info

http://lunacycle.com/motors/conversion-kits/golden-motor-v5-magic-pie-complete-kit/

 

[cev]

Is that the Magic Pie 5 kit?

Who installed the spokes on the motor?

 

[Marin]

I had a noise in my mp5 the other day that I thought was a screw loose in the motor. Turns out a spoke nipple had backed off and is rattling around in the rim. I'll have to take off the tire and tube to put it back right. If you have 6 spokes loose check out the nipples aren't your rattle too.

 

[lowquality]

could easily be the spoke tips. How hard was it to replace them?

 

[Marin]

That's my next project but I need the wheel off one more time to put on fenders anyway. It's on the stand now.



I think I need to be able to do this job as it's just a bit more that fixing a flat, but I only have the one to fix.

 

[John in CR]

lowquality,

Your problems didn't appear out of the blue. Before things got so bad there were lots of warning signs in the form of new noises that you ignored. Then after ignoring them you decided to take the ebike off-road and torture it even worse.

Hopefully at least you've learned a lesson to really listen to your ebike, and immediately investigate and correct whatever issues you discover.

John

 

[lowquality]

I'm actually glad it was my fault.

I had no idea it was even possible to tighten spokes on a tire. And my wheel came in with really loose spokes - combination of those 2 things caused this. But the guys are lunacycles said just mail it back and they will check the motor out and remount if on a brand new wheel.

 

[Harold in CR]

There are threads on the forum on lacing and truing wheels. Even explain how to "dish" (pull the motor to one side or offset the motor), if one needs to center it in the frame. Non of this is difficult if you want to try it.

WHO will pay shipping back and forth to Lunacycle ??

 

[Marin]

If your spokes were loose on arrival you should have let them know right way. Oh well lesson learned. They will fix your wheel and get you back on the road. I'd let them do it for sure even it it costs shipping one way. My 2 cents, we don't even have cents anymore in Canada too expensive to make them.
Magic pie is really fun.

 

[bowlofsalad]

I'm actually glad it was my fault.

I had no idea it was even possible to tighten spokes on a tire. And my wheel came in with really loose spokes - combination of those 2 things caused this. But the guys are lunacycles said just mail it back and they will check the motor out and remount if on a brand new wheel.

That is very generous of them, I am curious as to what they are going to do with this wheel build of yours.

Wheel building is a very mystifying idea to the vast majority of people, even though the wheel is a brutally important idea to much of civilization.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004H1UA9Y/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B004H1UA9Y&linkCode=as2&tag=xbnijgbr-20&linkId=4HOMHUGVFADULVQK I -highly- recommend viewing this DVD and it's part 2 if you are interested in learning the ins and outs of wheel building. You could ask tons of questions on forums, read threads and watch other random videos on youtube for years and not gain the same level of knowledge and understanding as you can with these DVDs in 3 hours or so.

http://www.wheelpro.co.uk/wheelbuilding/book.php I also recommend the book sold on this page. There are some things I liked in this book, like measuring effective rim diameter and calculating spoke length, plus they have excellent guides on making your own wheel building tools.

Bicycle rims are typically made to be pretty light, not necessarily fully up to the task of withstanding the battering abuse of the speeds and weights associated with an electric bicycle. This is why plenty of people have switched over to using motorcycle rims instead. Aside from that though, this battering means a mildly routine checking of spoke tension and true is probably a very wise thing to do, but knowing how to do it is very important.

To put this another way, even if lunacycle sets you up with a fresh rim and spokes, that isn't going to last forever. You've got to decide if you are going to find a guy to routinely check your spoke tension and true for you, or if you are going to try to do it yourself because if you simply ignore your wheels, it's gonna bite you in the ass (again). The prebuilt stuff that typically comes with hub motors that I've seen appear to be poor quality and usually really badly put together. Something to be wary of in the future, assuming you aren't already.

 

[made_in_the_alps_legacy]

I have had the same motor, i have had the same issue, tall hub, radial lacing: short and stiff spokes ...but i was a bit quicker to fix it : spokes ALWAYS need to be checked at the early lifetime stages of a wheel
(dude... this vid' with the spokes literally falling appart is unique... are u sure the sounds comes from the magnets? thxs for sharing)

 

[USAEBIKECO]

I had a similar problem with spokes. You need to reduce the weight of the bike. Also that's why motors on the front are better. Evenly distributes the weight.

 

[Golden Motor Canada]

Sorry to hear of this. These wheels are built by machine in about 2 seconds. I have seen the video and was amazed by it. At that point the wheel is straight and spokes are all tight and at the same tension. When you first ride the bike it is possible for the spokes to re-seat and some can come loose. Everyone should be checking their spokes on a regular basis especially the first few rides and after hitting hard bumps. Even Grin recommends this and does not warranty spokes. It is well accepted as regular maintenance and up to the rider to take care of.

I just saw your video. The rattling is the loose spoke nipples rolling around in the rim. The loose spokes that are flopping around should be removed so they don't scratch the bike or fly off. If you don't lose any its an easy fix. You could try to fix it yourself as it can be done quite quickly rather than shipping it back and forth. You could be riding again in a few hours rather than days or weeks. There is no reason for a new rim or news spokes if you have not lost any.

I would recommend lo take off the wheel remove the tire and set it back in the frame with the bike upside down. Loosen all spokes until you can see 2 threads on the spoke at the nipple or more if you want but keep it even. Replace the ones that fell out exposing the same amount of threads and watch this video. It really shows how easy it is to fix an issue like this.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBseRk30xMs

Gary

 

[MadRhino]

Never trust a lacing job that you didn't do yourself, Chinese especially.

Always check that spokes are tight before riding a new wheel, then check weekly with all the other things that you need to check on your bike for proper maintenance. Maintenance schedule varies with components and riding style. Riding hard in the mountains requires a daily check up, while the grocery getter could be checked twice a year.

To ignore preventive maintenance, can cost a lot in time, money, skin, bones...

 

[bowlofsalad]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xBseRk30xMs

Can you use a pair of calipers to measure the diameter of the spokes to show spoke diameter? What measurement do you come up with in millimeters?

The reason the lacing of the wheel seems so easy in your build is because the lacing pattern is basically radial. Not to say that various versions of cross lacing is very difficult, but they are superior.

The way the nipple and the spoke appear to sort of bend together with the spoke where they meet implies that the spoke angle is too high in some of the spokes. You should not be able to see threads by the end of your build, this is also likely very bad.

You -require- a spoke tensiometer, plucking isn't an acceptable alternative and how difficult it is to turn the spoke wrench certainly isn't either. You made several other fatal mistakes that will make for a very unreliable wheel build that will require basically constant attention at best. I am genuinely not trying to be critical or cruel when I write this, I write this to your benefit an to the benefit of your customers, but I think you should learn how to build wheels before you attempt to teach others in doing so yourself.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B004H1UA9Y/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B004H1UA9Y&linkCode=as2&tag=xbnijgbr-20&linkId=Y56QP56GBAR7PCNN
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00H49Q4KU/ref=as_li_tl?ie=UTF8&camp=1789&creative=390957&creativeASIN=B00H49Q4KU&linkCode=as2&tag=xbnijgbr-20&linkId=GVSFXN6R5WFBYXM3
http://www.wheelpro.co.uk/wheelbuilding/book.php

I recommend you read this book and watch these videos each, twice. Nothing short of taking several classes with a highly experienced will builder will teach you how to build wheels better than something like what I've linked to just above. I know I've already shared all this in this thread, but it's very much worth repeating. Once you watch the videos details surrounding all of what I mentioned will become very clear, it's absolutely worth the cost of those videos.

The reason I asked about the spoke thickness is because the spokes you used look far thicker than 14 gauge, and certainly not 13/14 single butted, it's possible I am mistaken though. It's very common for these hub motors to include spokes that are far too thick for their rim, which is another idea that lends to poor wheel reliability. When I say far too thick for their rim, I don't mean they won't fit through the holes or something like that, I mean that part of what keeps the rim true is the tension on the spokes, but the tension can be lost or change rapidly if the spokes aren't under enough tension and/or the spokes are too thick to stretch. This stretching allows the spokes to wiggle a little bit without losing the friction hold they have on their nipples, in other words the stretching helps prevents the nipples from turning. You cannot attain the level of tension needed to adequately stretch very thick spokes.

I also hope that you misspoke in your video when you said the rim was a 30 hole rim, I can only imagine one or two reasons why someone would do that, neither are good.

 

[Golden Motor Canada]

I guess you are being so critical as I didn't want to continually answer your private messages on this thread and asked you to post them here as it is related. If you watched the video instead of jumping through it, I did miss speak saying 30 spokes but shortly after that said 36 many times. I even counted all the spokes and holes several times in the video. If you watch my videos, most of them are one shot and I don't re shoot anything. I would rather have people experience things as I do. Nothing is polished or even tries to be. I don't have a caliper handy but could look around for one later. There is no need though, they are 14 gauge spokes. I guess when I said "Sorry, you likely think I am an ass now" you came here to confirm it. Your other comments here on spoke thickness just confirm exactly what I told you in the private messages "14. We did use 12 with the first pies but it was a nightmare of broken spokes, The wheel needs to flex." but you are stating it here like I never heard it before. There is also no need to repeat everything you already said in this thread. I already read it. The methods I use as I stated in the video are self taught and they work for me. When I get a wheel from china that has spoke issues I loosen all the spokes and use the method I show in the video and the problem is resolved. I'm just trying to show people its a lot more simple then they perceive and they don't need to read books and take courses or buy expensive tools to fix a wheel that is loosing spokes.

I am genuinely not trying to be critical or cruel when I write this

At least you have a sense of humor, Your whole intent is to slam me, lol. You were much kinder in private messages. Anyway I have a lot of shipping to do and this is eating up time. I would hate to start a back and forth with you and HiJack this thread. Likely we should go back to private messages now.

Gary

 

[Marin]

Well wheel off, tire tube off, spoke fixed and new fenders on. Took me an hour or so and going again. I'm gonna watch for loose spokes more now so it doesn't happen again.

 

[Golden Motor Canada]

Keep plucking those spokes to see if any loosen. It's an easy method to see how things are going before rides. It maybe to late to say but a small piece of tape on the one that came loose makes it easy to monitor that one individually.

Gary

 

[made_in_the_alps_legacy]

You -require- a spoke tensiometer,

@ Marin : if you have an handheld electric screw driver, you could use it as a spoke tensionner since the tightning torque can be adjusted.

 

[rider95]

Easy fix when my Brand new Chinese Alex rim failed with under 50mi of bike path riding I took it to one of our bigger shops they laced a MTX off rd rim to my Mac problem fixed almost a yr not even a lose spoke sometimes its better to let a pro do certain jobs , wheel building is one of them .

 

[Ykick]

Disclosure - I’m one of those “crusaders” who can’t help but inform folks about possibly the most useful skill you can develop/perfect for this technology - wheel building, truing, maintaining.

The average skill home mechanic doesn’t need truing stands, tension meters or anything other than PRACTICE. And I’ll say it this way - PRACTICE makes perfect.

Practice doesn’t (and perhaps shouldn’t) be limited to motor wheels only. In fact, any old bicycle wheel, tie wrap and spoke wrench is your opportunity to PRACTICE and understand how spoke wheel truing/tensioning works.

And once you’re proficient about truing/tensioning go ahead and dismantle any old junk bicycle wheel and re-lace it. Once you’ve done that a couple times I can assure you probably won’t ever buy those poorly laced Chinese hub motor wheels again.

I’m 220lb person and when initially using stock Chinese wheel builds suffered constant tensioning and eventually broken spokes, etc. No thanks, I’ll just do it myself…

The difference is truly startling. Every motor wheel (over a dozen) I’ve ever built using good components has never, ever required truing/tensioning beyond the initial build.

 

[made_in_the_alps_legacy]

words of wisdom ...or common sens

 

[bowlofsalad]

if you have an handheld electric screw driver, you could use it as a spoke tensionner since the tightning torque can be adjusted.

I had the same idea a while back. What I was told and learned was that there can be variables in details like the threads and even their coatings that will inhibit any sort of degree of accuracy with this approach. Think of paint or dirt between the threads giving you a false sense of torque. Torque on a nut is not the same thing as tension in a spoke.

Wheel building without a tensiometer is less than ideal for two reasons. First, as noted, it's important to reach a specific level of tension, this can only be achieved with a relatively accurate measurement of spoke tension. Second, you want as uniform spoke tension as possible, another detail which is, at least, radically more easily achieved by using a tensiometer through out a wheel build.

I am no expert, I am merely a student of several experts acting as a conduit for information. I've read a blinding number of opinions/anecdotes, several books, seen videos and tried/seen a bunch of stuff. I really like the techniques noted in those videos I linked to and the ideas surrounding them are covered by sound information of logic and science. It's likely hard to accept my statements

without having seen these videos

, but because they aren't freely available it's not likely many are going to see this information I am basing my words upon. But for that same reason, it is also difficult to argue against the ideas proposed when they haven't been observed and explained to a similar degree.

Every motor wheel (over a dozen) I’ve ever built using good components has never, ever required truing/tensioning beyond the initial build.

"Ignorance more frequently begets confidence than does knowledge" I think you'd be surprised in what kind of variances in spoke tension your wheel likely has. I could be totally wrong, the wheel building experts could be silly quacks that I've pointlessly followed, I wonder how we can look at this from another point of view. "A man with one watch always knows the time, a man with two watches is never quite sure."

The bottom line here is that I am hoping more folks gravitate towards whatever is most reliable rather than what is cheaper or convenient. I know certain tools and materials have an added cost, but often these added costs come with certain features and benefits. If it works for you though, what can I say? But I think it's worth considering that there might be methods and ideas that are more than worth their cost. If we depend on our electric bicycles to get us to where we are going on time as many of us do, I think it's worth looking into how to make an ebike as reliably as is achievable.

 

[Marin]

Thanks for the tips and yes it's too late for the piece of tape but I'm keeping an eye on these spokes now. I put this bike together to ride but also to learn and tinker about as that's fun too. I found a park tool bike stand used that has a wheel truing jig on it so that will get some use over the winter months, but I'm not taking the wheel off my bike for a while as I want to ride it before the weather really turns. For now the plucking will suffice with this wheel, with the size of this motor on a 26" wheel with really thick spokes it just is what it is. Fun to ride, less expensive and a good starter project. I plan to practice wheel truing and building on some wheels this winter to get the hang of it and also use the books and videos too.

as always this is a great community and thanks for the info...

 

[dogman dan]

FWIW, I like to just squeeze pairs of spokes to get a third world guess as to the spoke tension. The pairs are each set of spokes that cross each other. I grab them halfway between the cross and the rim, and first of all try to get the feel of each pair close, before doing any truing at all.

Then start truing, never moving any nipple more than 1/4 turn at a time. Lastly, look at tensions again, trying to identify any super loose, or super tight spokes. If any are really out of whack after the truing, you have a badly bent rim. That bent rim will doom you to many broken spokes in the future. Till you get a new rim, it could be better to run the wheel out of true, but balanced in spoke tension, more or less. Obviously you can't get them accurately close by this method, but it serves to keep you from riding on a wheel that is doomed by half the spokes loose, the other half over tight.