4500+ Miles US Ebike Tour - August 2014

[Bike_on]

Troy,

For completeness, what was your organic fuel budget? aka. food.

Good stats.

Dan

 

[grindz145]

Troy,

For completeness, what was your organic fuel budget? aka. food.

Good stats.

Dan

I don't really know, I stopped keeping track. I didn't spend a ton, but I also didn't bother worrying about it much. I would say maybe 10-20 bucks a day average?

I could have penny pinched and done it for less, but I LOVE to eat

 

[grindz145]

I have to get some pictures, but I received a Cycle Analyst V3 with data logger in the mail from Justin! He was nice enough to send me one, just because he liked my trip. The guy is, unequivocally, the coolest guy in biking. It's seriously unreal how incredible generous he is.

It only makes me wish that I had a GPS cycle analogger on my trip! I'm kicking myself now for not having one. In hindsight it is SO OBVIOUS that I needed one. It would have been the most perfect way to record everything for Guinness and it would have saved me a huge headache!

 

[cycborg]

Thanks for sharing your records - I'm probably not the only data junkie who was hoping to see all the numbers eventually!

Day 19 Wh/mi was definitely an outlier - any idea what happened there? My bet is manic pedaling :wink:

 

[grindz145]

Yeah good, catch. I think I'm missing data for that day. There's probably another 2kWh that belong in there that day.

 

[rborger73]

I could swear I replied on this page.. hmm Anyways Troy what was your average distance between charges, and average charge time?
Just round about numbers.

 

[grindz145]

I could swear I replied on this page.. hmm Anyways Troy what was your average distance between charges, and average charge time?
Just round about numbers.

40 miles, couple of hours, might be more mode than mean. I was always looking for a charge location around 40, but there a few times I did 60+ before charging stops. I have a lot more range than I really used.

 

[rborger73]

I could swear I replied on this page.. hmm Anyways Troy what was your average distance between charges, and average charge time?
Just round about numbers.

40 miles, couple of hours, might be more mode than mean. I was always looking for a charge location around 40, but there a few times I did 60+ before charging stops. I have a lot more range than I really used.

Ok that is good to know. I'm probably on par to be able to do that without a lot of worry. I'm probably going to add another 10Ah for a total of 50Ah of 12s before my trip. I have done 50 miles on a charge and still probably had 10 to 15 miles left if I was to run it. My commute I do just shy of 20 each way, and charge at work. I don't like running it down into the lean side of things except in emergencies. I think with the added 10Ah and higher Amp charger I'll be good. Only pushing a little over 6A when charging now. Takes about 130 minutes to charge up fully after 20 miles. NW Pa though so lot of hills on my route. I was concerned you were doing a lot more range between charges. I guess I need to be closer to 12A when charging and I should be close to what I need.

 

[maxwell92036]

On my 375 mile 2.5 day trip I got 60 to 80 miles of range on two 48 volt 15 amp hour batteries. I brought along two 3 amp chargers and used them whenever I stopped or at night. Most places were cool with you charging as long as you told them what you were up to. I too don't like to go to deep into the batteries, so when I got down to one bar I would swap battery connection, That way when you charge you are charging packs from the same rate of discharge so you aren't just topping one off while the other one has a long ways to go. No need to tie the batteries together as it just complicates things.
I did start a facebook page on Electric bike touring but I am pretty busy with some Wattwagon orders, so it may be another week or two before I open it up.

 

[rborger73]

On my 375 mile 2.5 day trip I got 60 to 80 miles of range on two 48 volt 15 amp hour batteries. I brought along two 3 amp chargers and used them whenever I stopped or at night. Most places were cool with you charging as long as you told them what you were up to. I too don't like to go to deep into the batteries, so when I got down to one bar I would swap battery connection, That way when you charge you are charging packs from the same rate of discharge so you aren't just topping one off while the other one has a long ways to go. No need to tie the batteries together as it just complicates things.
I did start a facebook page on Electric bike touring but I am pretty busy with some Wattwagon orders, so it may be another week or two before I open it up.

You'd be much farther ahead to keep both packs together. Charge as one pack. Better for efficiency and life of the batteries. Not to mention less likely to go out of balance. I run about the same with lipo. 40Ah currently of 12s. Having the batteries charge all as one simplifies things greatly for me. I go months now without having to balance anything. I have one plug I plug in and bulk charge. Takes me about a minute to be up and charging. I carry my charger back and forth to work in my backpack, which has helped my abs out greatly. Usually have 20lbs on my back 40 miles a day. hehe

That is a great trip in 2.5 days as well.

 

[mlt34]

No need to tie the batteries together as it just complicates things.

yea you'd get more energy out of your batteries, equalling more range, if you used them in parallel for discharging. It would cut the C-rate in half which would give you more useable energy from the packs. Charging that way could be complicated, as you said. For my own XC I'll keep two packs in parallel for discharging, then split them up for charging.

 

[maxwell92036]

Both batteries have BMS so I don't see a problem not tying them together. I don't stress the batteries at all in the assist levels I use and that way I can take two chargers so I effectively have 6 amps of charging power without spending a ton of money and IF one charger bites the dust I still have a backup. Of course there are a million different ways to skin the cat but I find out this works best for me since usually I just run one battery and only add a second one for longer rides or touring.

 

[rborger73]

Both batteries have BMS so I don't see a problem not tying them together. I don't stress the batteries at all in the assist levels I use and that way I can take two chargers so I effectively have 6 amps of charging power without spending a ton of money and IF one charger bites the dust I still have a backup. Of course there are a million different ways to skin the cat but I find out this works best for me since usually I just run one battery and only add a second one for longer rides or touring.

More capacity in a single pack =s less sag. Not to mention if you are running one pack and only doing shorter trips you will age your packs differently. Separate packs might be easier for you to charge but you are losing a lot of life and efficiency. I know all my cells are pretty close in cycles. Which means a more reliable pack with longer life. Even with bms on the packs it is still far better to run your packs as one, unless it is a weight issue for short trips. I had planned on having separate packs like that in the early stages. Changed my mind later after looking at the hard data.

 

[maxwell92036]

Both batteries have BMS so I don't see a problem not tying them together. I don't stress the batteries at all in the assist levels I use and that way I can take two chargers so I effectively have 6 amps of charging power without spending a ton of money and IF one charger bites the dust I still have a backup. Of course there are a million different ways to skin the cat but I find out this works best for me since usually I just run one battery and only add a second one for longer rides or touring.

More capacity in a single pack =s less sag. Not to mention if you are running one pack and only doing shorter trips you will age your packs differently. Separate packs might be easier for you to charge but you are losing a lot of life and efficiency. I know all my cells are pretty close in cycles. Which means a more reliable pack with longer life. Even with bms on the packs it is still far better to run your packs as one, unless it is a weight issue for short trips. I had planned on having separate packs like that in the early stages. Changed my mind later after looking at the hard data.

Many people only have an e-bike with one pack and seem to do well with life cycles. That is all I am doing. I have 3 e-bikes for my bike tour business and as demo bikes so I need the extra batteries anyways. To add a pack to my Wattwagon is simple and no big deal. They all use the same connector so it is easy to swap out batteries on a tour. Sag?? Not an issue since I am not stressing the batteries beyond their intended use and I do not go too deep into them before I recharge. If I had a choice of one 30 amp hour battery vs. two 15 amp hour batteries I would take the two 15 amp hour batteries for more flexibility. I don't use throttle on the Wattwagon and rarely with my mid drive motors so I am not drawing a lot of amps.
But hey this is the way I roll and it works out well for me and my purposes.

 

[maxwell92036]

I find long distance bike riding and e-bike riding to be fascinating. I get glassy eyed on all the posts with people trying to make a bike something that it is not, mainly a motorcycle. If you want high speeds, range and safety then get an electric motorcyle!
For me e-biking is staying within the speeds that a bike is designed for. Over 20 to 25 MPH you have safety issues and range issues.
I like hearing about long distance rides and people actually getting out there and cutting the use of their car down considerably through e-biking. How many people get an e-bike and once the new wears off never use it again? I hazard a guess that it would be similar to the numbers of people who buy regular bikes and after a while never use them. We all drive by open garages with bikes hanging from the rafters with flat tires and cob webs.
Another issue is that overpowered and illegal e-bikes will hasten the regulation of them and that would be sad. Right now 750 watts is plenty and we are lucky to have that limit vs. what Europe has to deal with.

 

[grindz145]

As far as paralleling battery packs are concerned, I like to be able to very simply charge the whole pack at once, and due to the pukert effect, as already mentioned, one big, bad battery pack can be better, but as you have mentioned, not entirely necessary. To be able to pull out one cable and immediately start charging, is ideal.

I totally agree with you with respect to chassis design. Traditional bike frames are not cool with higher speeds without being designed from the ground up, and I hate nearly every chassis on the market for ebikes.

 

[rborger73]

As far as paralleling battery packs are concerned, I like to be able to very simply charge the whole pack at once, and due to the pukert effect, as already mentioned, one big, bad battery pack can be better, but as you have mentioned, not entirely necessary. To be able to pull out one cable and immediately start charging, is ideal.

I totally agree with you with respect to chassis design. Traditional bike frames are not cool with higher speeds without being designed from the ground up, and I hate nearly every chassis on the market for ebikes.

I was planning on having 2 packs on my bike, the rear one being removable, but it just didn't end up making sense to use one pack as a primary and run it way further down per cell, plus removing and storing the second pack will wind up in a mistake at some point. Forgotten after a long vacation, spouse gets preggers, family member sick, at some point a valuable battery will end up sitting longer than it should. Then the whole idea of the second pack having less cycles than the primary pack, which of course leads to more sag in one pack or the other, which of course can lead to failure of cells more quickly. I'm the same with a single plug setup all charge as one, and check balance once or twice a week. Just makes sense to me. Even use across the cells will result in less risk of failure due to different amounts of cycles.

 

[maxwell92036]

As far as paralleling battery packs are concerned, I like to be able to very simply charge the whole pack at once, and due to the pukert effect, as already mentioned, one big, bad battery pack can be better, but as you have mentioned, not entirely necessary. To be able to pull out one cable and immediately start charging, is ideal.

I totally agree with you with respect to chassis design. Traditional bike frames are not cool with higher speeds without being designed from the ground up, and I hate nearly every chassis on the market for ebikes.

I was planning on having 2 packs on my bike, the rear one being removable, but it just didn't end up making sense to use one pack as a primary and run it way further down per cell, plus removing and storing the second pack will wind up in a mistake at some point. Forgotten after a long vacation, spouse gets preggers, family member sick, at some point a valuable battery will end up sitting longer than it should. Then the whole idea of the second pack having less cycles than the primary pack, which of course leads to more sag in one pack or the other, which of course can lead to failure of cells more quickly. I'm the same with a single plug setup all charge as one, and check balance once or twice a week. Just makes sense to me. Even use across the cells will result in less risk of failure due to different amounts of cycles.

Ya pregnancy really puts a crimp on things!

 

[maxwell92036]

Wattwagon goes 74 miles with over 7800 feet of climbing over some tough terrain to boot. Took along 35 amp hours of batteries at 48 volts and they were up to the task. No recharging necessary.

View attachment 4

View attachment 2

 

[grindz145]

Nice! 1.5kwh is really all you need for a long day. Of course if you have to do 3x that in a day... you would need to charge

 

[dnmun]

you guys were talking about charging batteries in parallel.

if you charge identical packs with the same charger, then the packs have to be disconnected from each other at the P- lead on the BMS if the BMS uses a separate mosfet for the charging.

some designs use just the one spot to charge and discharge, with two sets of mosfets back to back through the tabs, and those can be charged in parallel without being disconnected.

but if there is a C- spot and separate charging mosfet then the drains or P- spot on the BMS have to be disconnected from each other. you can just disconnect one of the leads, don't have to separate both from the controller when you do it.

 

[grindz145]

you guys were talking about charging batteries in parallel.

if you charge identical packs with the same charger, then the packs have to be disconnected from each other at the P- lead on the BMS if the BMS uses a separate mosfet for the charging.

some designs use just the one spot to charge and discharge, with two sets of mosfets back to back through the tabs, and those can be charged in parallel without being disconnected.

but if there is a C- spot and separate charging mosfet then the drains or P- spot on the BMS have to be disconnected from each other. you can just disconnect one of the leads, don't have to separate both from the controller when you do it.

Both configurations can be charged without being disconnected.... Seriously, why would you want to reconnect a bunch of shit. ugh.

I guess we just all love tinkering a bit too much.

 

[rborger73]

No bms for me, and the only time anything gets unhooked is for balancing once a month if that. 96 cells stay within a .03 variance from high to low after thousands of miles. The key to battery health is more capacity than you need. I check balance weekly and am amazed every time how close everything stays.

 

[grindz145]

No bms for me, and the only time anything gets unhooked is for balancing once a month if that. 96 cells stay within a .03 variance from high to low after thousands of miles. The key to battery health is more capacity than you need. I check balance weekly and am amazed every time how close everything stays.

I couldn't agree more, although A BMS is a good idea...

 

[rborger73]

No bms for me, and the only time anything gets unhooked is for balancing once a month if that. 96 cells stay within a .03 variance from high to low after thousands of miles. The key to battery health is more capacity than you need. I check balance weekly and am amazed every time how close everything stays.

I couldn't agree more, although A BMS is a good idea...

Ideally I agree on a bms being a good idea. As soon as a few more options become available to allow for large capacity packs with lots of cells and has a blue tooth to show me all the cell levels at will, I'm there.