A whole new level of spun axles - what 10KW does to an X5

[voicecoils]

... because I know clicking a mouse is alot of work for some people :wink:
http://www.sphere.bc.ca/test/fans.html
Chances are you will need to scroll down so hope thats not to much work 8)

Just buy him what he needs and have it shipped to his house, then cross your fingers that his wife doesn't get to the package first...or they'll probably end up in some sort of cooling system for a laser*.

*The hypothetical laser in question is likely to be capable of severing off nutsacks from great distances.

 

[ejonesss]

methods you should have sheared off the spokes with that kind of power.

the right out of the box phoenix brute ( x5305r) with crystalyte 4840 controller and spokes started breaking with torque no where near what your controller did.

 

[voicecoils]

methods you should have sheared off the spokes with that kind of power.

the right out of the box phoenix brute ( x5305r) with crystalyte 4840 controller and spokes started breaking with torque no where near what your controller did.

Your broken spokes were more likely due to not having a correctly pre-stressed and trued wheel and/or failing to maintain proper spoke tension.

 

[John in CR]

I will press it out, knurl splines into it, and press it back in for free for you Methy.

But shipping both ways on a boat anchor would suck.

If he's going to that kind of trouble and expense for the both of you, then while that axle is out either:
1. Make a new axle made with built in torque arm on one side, and set it up for water cooling in addition to passive air ventilation. As part of the new axle setup, increase the diameter at the bearings to accommodate new larger bearings for larger gauge phase wires and coolant flow tubes can pass. Water cooling is the next step anyway because the forced air cooling isn't going to have as much effect as thought. It's not like the element of a blow dryer that is both so much hotter as sees all of the airflow. Only the ends of the winding are exposed.
2. Same as number 1 but using the existing axle, but issues will arise later and wish you had gone with #1.

IOW try to address all of the issues possible at once instead of just fixing one thing just to lead to another issue next week that you already know of now.

Methods,
For your ventilating holes strategy, please try to look at your hub as a centrifugal fan. You want holes for exit vents as close to the perimeter as possible. They will have greater effect, and the air flow will pass across the exposed ends of the windings. Also you will need intake holes near the center of the covers. Raised ribs even higher than exist will help stimulate more flow through the motor as well as increase the turbulence near the windings. I believe these vanes (ribs) will have greater effect if angled. Look at them as fan blades with the leading edge closest to the axle, so the two covers will have opposite angles of the vanes when looking at them with the cover off.

At least that's my 2 cents.

John

 

[methods]

uhhhh..... Did you miss the 30 pictures I just posted where I permanently fixed the problem?
Wont be any axles being pressed out here...

As far as drilling holes - you also must have missed the 30 pictures I posted a month ago where half the holes are on the windings and half are in the middle.

You are batting a thousand for giving me advice on stuff that is already done


Since you brought up the "using the motor as a fan" argument again (which irritates the shit of me) I will repeat my opinion on that -

The motor is not spinning fast enough to cool itself - I dont care how much shit you bondo on there.
Even if you factor in the wind speed - here is the rub ------ THESE MOTORS DONT OVERHEAT AT 40 MPH and 800RPM

They overheat at 40RPM when they are being lugged down.
They overheat while doing slow climbs and technical riding
They overheat from popping wheelies at 5mph

I dont care if you have NASA design fan-blades into this motor - it ain't going to cut it - a few hundred RPM is not moving enough air.

The only way to run uber high power on these motors will be to run active fan cooling like Arlo1 and Markacycle have demonstrated.

Nothing personal John - and sorry if I sound pissed - but I am tired of going around that mulberry bush.
My experience in RC tells me that there is just nothing you can do to the motor to get it to push the kind of air it needs to push to keep it cool at low RPM and high load.

The simple and obvious solution to the overheating motor issue is small 12V fans.

-methods

 

[oatnet]

Since you brought up the "using the motor as a fan" argument again (which irritates the shit of me) I will repeat my opinion on that -

I think the motor would make an excellent fan - just strip off the spokes and rim, then epoxy a 4' prop to one of the covers :lol: :lol: :lol:
Except knowing you it would run at 100v 300a and blow out all the windows in your neighborhood. :lol:

-JD

 

[John in CR]

Methods,

The attitude really isn't necessary. When mistakes repeat, so does the advice. Sorry I didn't feel like reading 6 pages of thread that started only Friday. I don't have a lot of free time. I saw pics of covers with big ass holes placed 1.5"-2" from the perimeter and all at the same radius, so I didn't read any further. If I missed the resolution, I do apologize. I also apologize that my progress has been slow preventing me from leading by example, but my plan is more developed than just drilling some round holes and placing some fans wherever they'll fit.

You're great with the electrical stuff, but you even said you suck at the mechanical, and that keeps manifesting itself as failures. If you don't want to attempt to derive benefit from my work toward trying to do ventilation as effective as possible the first time, suit yourself. I can't get replacement motor covers, so trial and error isn't an option.

Of course at slow rpm the passive fan will be less effective, but it's free and easy so take the most advantage possible, and doing so will also help maximize the benefit of the active fans you want to use. Exhausting so far from the perimeter is counter productive, and it may even cause some blockage to the airflow.

Of course active fans will help, just probably not to the extent you believe.

These hub motors aren't like a ventilated RC motor, because air flow can't get to the windings even close to the same extent. The flip side is that the hub motor has so much more thermal mass in it's stator, but heat transfer is a relatively slow process. The aluminum helps, but the copper must heat up first and then the steel laminations before it can get to the aluminum. That means we're addressing heat dissipation closer to continuous operation rather than the intermittent peaks. Only to the extent that we increase turbulent flow directly across the exposed part of the windings can we bypass some of the heat transfer through the rest of the stator. That's what we need to do to increase the intermittent power limits.

John

 

[Arlo1]

Methods,

I saw pics of covers with big ass holes placed 1.5"-2" from the perimeter and all at the same radius, so I didn't read any further.

I think thats from the 9C motor he drilled out.

Of course at slow rpm the passive fan will be less effective, but it's free and easy so take the most advantage possible, and doing so will also help maximize the benefit of the active fans you want to use. Exhausting so far from the perimeter is counter productive, and it may even cause some blockage to the airflow.

Of course active fans will help, just probably not to the extent you believe.

John

I proved you wrong here see air cooling x5 thread http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=2&t=9791&start=285
I do use the fans to pull the air in from the center holes and blow on the windings then let the air leave the outer dia holes.
You have to remember John these motors ARE OVER HEATING AT LOW LOW RPM where the amps hit hi peaks and the motor has to get alot of weight to move off the line! The centrifugal force on the air in side the wheel does not exsist at these speeds!

 

[methods]

You're great with the electrical stuff, but you even said you suck at the mechanical, and that keeps manifesting itself as failures.

Go back and read the thread John.
I ripped the F'ing stator off the axle with BRUTE POWER

I then drilled it, pinned it, welded it, and glued it.

Nothing that I engineered failed - in fact my engineering forced the weakest link to break - the actual stator of the motor.

Not the drops that I welded up myself.
Not the torque arms that I welded up myself.
Not the controller I built myself.

The attitude stems from the fact that you keep giving me the same bunk advice over and over without reading and it is pissing me off.

You want to prove that your method works - go build it and start a thread - run the 100V 100A controller I am sending you FULL BLAST like I do (100V 100A) and we will see what is up then.

-methods

 

[John in CR]

Bunk advice? Placing your exhaust vents of a spinning housing as close to the perimeter as possible is bunk advice? If so, here's some more for you... Try not riding around with your brakes on.

Please just send my tracking number once it's out the door, so I can register it with my courier service out of Miami.

John

 

[Kiwi]

Comment removed. Nice Fix.

 

[methods]

Bunk advice? Placing your exhaust vents of a spinning housing as close to the perimeter as possible is bunk advice? If so, here's some more for you... Try not riding around with your brakes on.

John

My brakes were not on - they were bled and centered properly.
The motor housing shifts left to right on the axle due to poor tolerances
This shift caused the caliper to drag on the rotor.

-methods

 

[Arlo1]

:

Please just send my tracking number once it's out the door, so I can register it with my courier service out of Miami.

John

John You and methods realy need to calm down this forum is full of great info and alot of helpfull guys and guys like methods we need to keep around!
This whole thing has been beet to death in the propper thread but to say it one last time I had my x5 at 180degC and melted the solder off the hallsensors! I have 2 sets of holes on both sides of the rim and it basicaly flows no air through it centrificaly I overheaed it riding aroud doing little wheelies on my way home after climbing a hill a couple times at a friends house then wound it out to ~80km/h down a hill for about 3 min which should have cooled it off in the 5degC ambiant air temp we had that night. But it just got hotter and I wondered why....... then I realized this ONE BIG REASON the BOTTOM HOLES OF THE WHEEL DONT MOVE in relation to the ground! So all the air flow happens at the top of the wheel. And the other BIG REASON is rpm 10-800 rpm WILL NOT MOVE AIR AROUND AT ALL! the stock turbo on my car spins between
60,000-80,000 rpm! AND GET THIS THERE IS FINS INSIDE IT TO MOVE AIR AROUND. the smooth serface on the inside of the wheel will not do anything even if it had fins 10-800rpm is not enough!

 

[tostino]

Well now that everyone has cooled down ... I went and looked for a fan that may be what you're looking for Methods.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811999701

It's the same diameter, but much fatter, and higher pitch/rpm.

 

[Arlo1]

Well now that everyone has cooled down ... I went and looked for a fan that may be what you're looking for Methods.

http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.aspx?Item=N82E16811999701

It's the same diameter, but much fatter, and higher pitch/rpm.

Looks good and almost dubble the cfm mine are rated at. I think 2-3 times my cfm will be enough what I have works but I need more to be able to do my 10 ah rolling smokeshow this weekend!
PS My 40mmx40mmx10mm cooling fans are a tight/perfact fit the way I installed them. SO a 40x40x28 will require some work. One thing I must say is I would not be afraid of machining in the stator to open it up.

 

[enoob]

just caught up on this thread . lol . im really starting to like your style methods .

as a carpenter all i have to say about your fix is ...... wait for it ...

you NAILED it.

Fantastic. ida done the same but with clear jb weld or epoxy so i could show it off more.

now ima have to buy one of your controllers just to support the R&D your putting in.

 

[methods]

I am sure you wont be surprised to hear that I actually pounded those nails in with a hammer too.
I was positive I would screw the pooch and nick the windings but I did alright.

Got about 50 hard miles on it now including quite a few drops and jumps
It is solid.

-methods

 

[Ypedal]

Just about due for a video i think..... :wink:

 

[methods]

I agree.
I know just the place
That gully where I made the now infamously lame video...

I ride my bike like Captain Bad-ass now so it should make for a more interesting vid :wink:
I have a drop and a jump that I hit 4 times a day (to work, to lunch, back to work, back home)

Now where is that camera and tripod.....

If you guys are lucky my pride will get me to do something really stupid that may or may not end with me dragging the bike home.

Eeeeeeeevery body loves a video that ends with Patrick dragging his bike home

-methods

 

[AussieJester]

Just about due for a video i think..... :wink:

+1...Most importantly..advise the better half too keep video camera pointed in your direction AT ALL TIMES !! we don't want too be looking at lil fury cat when Methys front hub parts company with the fork......again

KiM

 

[mwkeefer]

Methods,

Couldn't you just drill a few runs into the stator, through the "sleeve" and divit the axle? Then you could thread the hole and add set screws in several points... wouldn't that hold up better and avoid the need for a fancy machine setup?

-Mike

 

[methods]

If I had the tools and patience, sure. It is worth pointing out though that it is hard to get the angle given the location of the windings.

ME's at work said that I should have drilled out the aluminum and tapped the steel to just drive in 3 fasteners.


Bad news?

The stator was not true to the axle.... The small rotation has put the assembly out of round and now the magnets scrape on the stator at one location when it gets hot.
I put it in the test stand for an hour to "cut it down" and now the resistance is tolerable.

Basically if you turn the wheel by hand it moves fine till one point and gets fairly well stuck.
Whatever. . .

-methods

 

[gogo]

The stator was not true to the axle....

Do you think the "wedge" had something to do with that? Like maybe they drive that wedge and then machine the axle/stator as an assembly afterward?

 

[methods]

I dont even want to think about how they manufacture this stuff :?

I just cant wait until we get out of this pimple-face, cracked-voice, raging-hormone, awkward teenage growing phase of the Electric Revolution.
I cant wait for the day when high quality EV components will be for sale at the local EV store.

-methods

 

[Arlo1]

If I had the tools and patience, sure. It is worth pointing out though that it is hard to get the angle given the location of the windings.

ME's at work said that I should have drilled out the aluminum and tapped the steel to just drive in 3 fasteners.


Bad news?

The stator was not true to the axle.... The small rotation has put the assembly out of round and now the magnets scrape on the stator at one location when it gets hot.
I put it in the test stand for an hour to "cut it down" and now the resistance is tolerable.

Basically if you turn the wheel by hand it moves fine till one point and gets fairly well stuck.
Whatever. . .

-methods

Hey methy.
I found the side covers on my x5 only have one spot that they can be placed to make it true. I actualy staked a indexing mark to know for future refernce to line it up again.