A123 20Ah cells price down to 17.50$ per cells?

[countermeasure]

I ordered 4 cells from A123rc. Two have made in USA label on them. Two have made in Korea label on them. I planned to make it into a 12V battery for auxiliary system.

Strange thing is all 4 cell voltages are identical at 3.312 V on my meter. The last digit reads steady. I take that to mean A/D in meter wasn't on the fence about whether it should have been 1 or 2. Of course my meter wasn't calibrated with NIST traceable standard, so let's say the cells are 3.31 V.

The serial number stickers for made in USA cells are in the front, on the negative side. The serial numbers are also printed on the pouches.
The serial number stickers for made in Korea cells are in the back, on the positive side. The serial numbers are also printed on the pouches.
Logos and the word "A123" on the cells look different between USA and Korea cells. Korea cells are taller. USA cells are a bit smudged.

I think the cells themselves have the grades (or capacity) coded on them either by the barcode or serial number. Serial numbers probably contain Julian production date.

Someone with an iPhone can download an app to read all sorts of barcodes. Use that app to read the barcode on the cell pouch and see what we've got.
I don't have an iPhone, however.

 

[amberwolf]

What would be nice is if someone had a web-based barcode app that you could just point at an existing photo of a barcoded item, and have it read that code. Then people without smartphones (like me) could directly find out what a code contains, without resorting to either of these workarounds:

1) manually decoding the bars and spaces (whcih is tedious but can be done)
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Product_Code has some info on various encoding schemes

2) copying the barcode off the pic into a photo editor, rescaling/etc. until it is "flat", printing that out in black and white, and scanning it in with a "normal" barcode reader like the CueCat (which is still relatively easy to find, very cheap, and is easy to hack if necessary).

I'm sure it could be done; there are open apps like this:
http://code.google.com/p/zxing/
that someone could probably embed into a web app or a locally-run app that could use a file-browse option for image capture instead of accessing the camera.

 

[Hillhater]

I see ENDLESS FEAR has retained it's nickname very nicely. PAGES of negativity, snarking and sniping from under the bushes. Constant fault finding and negativity. Truly endless fear.

Thanks for the information but not the attitude. I've seen plenty of people get burned on cells here and you yourself have had a hard time finding them too. Must be nice to have so much money to burn to experiment all day and find out

OK - has someone from here ordered these and done REAL tests on them yet?
I watched some of the EVTV snooze-fests and saw Jack blowing them up, casting them in resin and ruining them, but not successfully doing anything with them, so call me skeptical but i'd like to see a trusted forum member take these A123 cells, put them on an EV, go for a couple cycles, affirm they are legit, and get back to us..

Intentional or not, you just confirmed Jacks comments !
Rickard may have some different views ( bottom ballance etc) but he puts just as much time, effort, and enthusiasm into the EV movement as any other ES member ( and more than most !).
To imply that he is not a "trusted member" is unwarranted.

 

[texaspyro]

(I'm personally not going to be testing hundreds of cells,

Unless somebody tests EACH cell, I think you will be doomed to failure (or at least a lot of hair pulling). I have yet to see even a moderate sized batch of cells without some runts, bastards, lazy SOBs, etc in them. And running a single cycle on them isn't enough. You need to compare a few cycles to be assured that the cells MIGHT be up to the task.

 

[sangesf]

(I'm personally not going to be testing hundreds of cells,

Unless somebody tests EACH cell, I think you will be doomed to failure (or at least a lot of hair pulling). I have yet to see even a moderate sized batch of cells without some runts, bastards, lazy SOBs, etc in them. And running a single cycle on them isn't enough. You need to compare a few cycles to be assured that the cells MIGHT be up to the task.

I'm still not going to be testing hundreds of cells.. LOL
But I'm going to be ordering an extra 2 cells above what I personally need, just in case of runt/bastards/whatever..

Addendum: I'll tell ya what tho.. If anyone wants, I'll test out each of their cells (for as many cycles as they want) but don't expect me to do it for free OR quickly... LOL

 

[bigmoose]

Amber you can upload a picture of a barcode here and the guy's software will try to read it
http://www.mperfect.net/barCode/

 

[toolman2]

(I'm personally not going to be testing hundreds of cells,

Unless somebody tests EACH cell, I think you will be doomed to failure (or at least a lot of hair pulling). I have yet to see even a moderate sized batch of cells without some runts, bastards, lazy SOBs, etc in them. And running a single cycle on them isn't enough. You need to compare a few cycles to be assured that the cells MIGHT be up to the task.

out of about 200 of these cells that we've from chinese dudes, there was only one with a problem, it arrived real low voltage, it came good -now works perfect a year on.
all you need is to check is that they arrive over say 3v, have no punctures and they will all be fine, spares are good but they dont appear to be prone to failure..
-and thats something people seem to be struggling to come to terms with, i spose ive built plenty of packs from other types of cells that have 2-4% failure rates on arrival and even worse some later on, but so far even from these kinda shady suppliers ive had 0 failed a123 cells.

all the hair pulling and doomed to failure type stuff constantly spoken of here seem to be a feature of peoples minds more than actual problems with the cells.

 

[jrickard]

I don't KNOW they are made in Korea, and I don't know they are NOT made in USA. In fact, the trader insists they ARE made in USA and come from there. I find this extraordinarily unlikely. But it could be so.

I was told by someone who should probably know that all the 20Ah cells are actually made in Korea. But I have no way of knowing any of that.

In testing, we are seeing 18.5-19.5 AH which seem to be in line with their spec sheet and the American concept of almost meeting one. I have a little difficulty accurately measuring at those levels consistently. In groups of six, they seem to average better over 19 Ah and I suspect it is my measurement accuracy as problematical.

They will REALLY do 23C. We did a string of three in series at 475 amperes for OVER 30 seconds. I found it astounding.

My THEORY is as some of you have surmised, an Intellectual Property problem. As a result of Fisker shortfalls, A123 is abrogating manufacturer contracts in Asia, and the factories are simply selling them where they can then. Basically, they've lost control of their own battery manufacture.

The CEO of A123 has predicted the price of Lithium cells to drop in half by 2016. We have found his cells have dropped from $50 to $17 each since November so we think things are dropping faster than he apparently does.

We are doing an almost weekly attempt at a battery module from these cells as they have fallen through the $1 per AH level. I must say in all modesty that it is mostly comical. My packaging skills are truly embarrassing. But it's gotten to be a bit of a gig.

Jack Rickard
http://www.EVTV.me

 

[Hugues]

....

We are doing an almost weekly attempt at a battery module from these cells as they have fallen through the $1 per AH level. I must say in all modesty that it is mostly comical. My packaging skills are truly embarrassing. But it's gotten to be a bit of a gig.

Jack Rickard
http://www.EVTV.me

Hi Jack,

I just finished to watch your youtube video where you are packing A123 cells into your own mould, congratulations ! The final product looks pretty good to me ! And the technique is relatively simple !

For those who have not seen it:
http://www.youtube.com/user/marionrickard?feature=mhum#p/u/0/wlDJhpiqL_Q

demonstration starts at about 27:00

enjoy !

 

[docnjoj]

Thanks Hugues. I just cross posted info on this Rickard video on the other link. Very informative stuff.
otherDoc

 

[ohzee]

Yea just watched that I am very impressed. So since they are always paralleled do they all stay balanced ?
That part of it had me somewhat confused.. Still I like that idea.

 

[CNCAddict]

multiple cells in parallel are identical to one big cell.

 

[Joseph C.]

I don't KNOW they are made in Korea, and I don't know they are NOT made in USA. In fact, the trader insists they ARE made in USA and come from there. I find this extraordinarily unlikely. But it could be so.

I was told by someone who should probably know that all the 20Ah cells are actually made in Korea. But I have no way of knowing any of that.

In testing, we are seeing 18.5-19.5 AH which seem to be in line with their spec sheet and the American concept of almost meeting one. I have a little difficulty accurately measuring at those levels consistently. In groups of six, they seem to average better over 19 Ah and I suspect it is my measurement accuracy as problematical.

They will REALLY do 23C. We did a string of three in series at 475 amperes for OVER 30 seconds. I found it astounding.

My THEORY is as some of you have surmised, an Intellectual Property problem. As a result of Fisker shortfalls, A123 is abrogating manufacturer contracts in Asia, and the factories are simply selling them where they can then. Basically, they've lost control of their own battery manufacture.

The CEO of A123 has predicted the price of Lithium cells to drop in half by 2016. We have found his cells have dropped from $50 to $17 each since November so we think things are dropping faster than he apparently does.

We are doing an almost weekly attempt at a battery module from these cells as they have fallen through the $1 per AH level. I must say in all modesty that it is mostly comical. My packaging skills are truly embarrassing. But it's gotten to be a bit of a gig.

Jack Rickard
http://www.EVTV.me

By any chance have you tested to see how well the cells retain their voltages? They should be able to keep their capacity for months at a time.

Your method for packaging and protecting the cells is very clever and more importantly, easy to replicate. For that you deserve praise.

 

[999zip999]

There top level of big costumer sale concept has failed and over loaded the market, and the pallets are backing up. Gas prices are going to make these look good.

 

[docnjoj]

In the other thread there was a suggestion to use copper bars. I kinda had a DUH! moment but out on my 20 mile ride it dawned on me that Jack did the easier thing by paralleling 6 cells. We still gotta figure a way to get series of 6 or 8 cells, which to my way of thinking involves many more clamps ands some insulation to protect adjacent cells. It really is too bad that regular solder can't be used with a bit of one side plated circuit board. A couple of slots with a dremel and that would be it for each series connection. It would be just as easy to remove a bad cell by unsoldering that connection.
otherDoc

 

[CNCAddict]

Haha...he really lets us "kids with bicycles" have it at 33mins in

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RVh47P4h6PY&feature=g-u-u&context=G2ce3ff7FUAAAAAAAAAA

 

[ElectroSurf3r]

I'm not wasting another second of my time watching his videos. The small amount of useful info that could be communicated in <5 minutes is somehow stretched and fluffed into 2 HOURS of rambling.

 

[999zip999]

I turned the knicks game on at half time and forgot, it was still playing when the game was over. I forgot again.

 

[CNCAddict]

Yeah, you just have to let the video play in the background and jump in when things get interesting. If you are in a browser, just leave it running in a tab. Lots of industry gossip and other things that might be valuable in these videos.

 

[Hillhater]

I'm not wasting another second of my time watching his videos. The small amount of useful info that could be communicated in <5 minutes is somehow stretched and fluffed into 2 HOURS of rambling.

Thats fine, but dont expect others to waste their time answering questions that you may ask when the information can be gleaned from watching this type of video, or reading long tech articles , and test reports.
Life isnt always instant information, even if it is just watching a simple video.
You probably never had the pleasure of doing research papers before the internet age !

 

[neptronix]

Thats fine, but dont expect others to waste their time answering questions that you may ask when the information can be gleaned from watching this type of video, or reading long tech articles , and test reports.
Life isnt always instant information, even if it is just watching a simple video.
You probably never had the pleasure of doing research papers before the internet age !

..hm.. have you ever watched evtv before? i used to watch it here and there but found what hillhater is saying to be spot on. As a bonus, i can use it to make my girlfriend leave the room :lol:

 

[IBScootn]

I find all the JRickard basting distasteful. If people just want the readers digest version of his videos, they can simply read his blog quickly instead of watching his videos. Others might enjoy his videos. I guess I don't understand all the negativity. Please let's keep things technical and informative.

 

[mistercrash]

I loved those clamps in the EVTV video for the A123 cell tabs. Loved them so much that I made a scale drawing of a 16S1P battery I could make for my scooter. They work great for connecting in parallel then in series as Mr Rickard shows in his video but they can be made to just connect in series also. Thank you for the idea EVTV. Maybe the price of these cells will go down enough for me to get a few. I ain't too rich see. I'm hoping that it is possible to order just 20 cells or less for $15 each shipped by the end of 2012.

 

[docnjoj]

Hey mistercrash
I have been looking for a series connector for the A123 pouch cells and also thought Jacks connectors would work for series. I believe that they should be made out of copper and about 1/8" thick bars for better conductivity in less space. What do you think? I think Jack's parallel ones are too thick for safe series connections.
otherDoc

 

[dnmun]

imagine a big clip that jammed over a central copper bus conductor with the tabs sandwiched in between it and the outer plates. instead of a screw and nut and norlock washer, a simple sheet of copper, cut into strips long and wide enuff for the tabs with a tab on the end to solder the connections to for the series connection, and then put the tabs for 2 or 3 cells on each side of this piece, so there would be maybe 6 tabs, put the copper piece on the outside, and then if there was some spring metal clip that you could pry open and slip that tab sandwich inside, then when the clip was released it would squeeze all the tabs onto the central strip of copper, no soldering or spot welding just pressure from a spring clip, which could be spring steel since it doesn't have to conduct, just squeeze.