Acid test - Mountain Climb- 3220 motor hv160

[Green Machine]

So we have finished building a matt shumaker drive dual 3220 kmx trike. It has dual 3220's delta wound and 2 hv160 controllers.

It is geared down for hill climbing and is way under geared for suvivability. It has one 30ah pack built in to a battery tray and one external pack 30ah.

Edward Lyon tried to time it and claims it goes 0-30 in about a second.

The question to me is will it hold up...are the controllers and motors as reliable as some people they are? A lot of 3220 proponents live in flat lands and don't have a good testing evironment...we built this thing to climb mountains! I believe the systems will hold up...but as Richard Fechter says one word is worth a thousand opinions.

So we are definitely testing before committing to a 20 hours drive to pikes. If all goes well today we are off.

Our first serious test run will happen later today...up mount diablo here, the steepest climb here in bay area. 3500 feet in about 9 miles...a 5-7 percent grade. Its about half of what pikes peak is and the same grade.

Before we leave i am going to buy a temperature sensor at home depot to monitor temps of motors. The controllers since they are attached to giant aluminum heat sink dont seem to be an issue on initial testing..they never get over luke warm.

However just drag racing the thing up and down small hills around my house the motors get warm/hot quick. I am hoping it is just racing to standard operating temp and then will hold at this level. It feels like 100 degrees to touch.

Here are pics and videos of the trike:

https://picasaweb.google.com/104144013429797166196/Kingfish?authkey=Gv1sRgCJus-cmCtIqHfg

 

[GGoodrum]

Matt would probably be the best one to answer this, but my gut says you will probably be okay. Two 3220s is a lot of power. I'm a big guy and one of these on a 20" folding bike will flip me on my ass, every time. Anyway, I'm guessing the motors might get to about 200F, but that's fine. They can run all day there. The magnets are good for about 300F, I think.

The nice thing about these motors is that they are inrunners, albeit large diameter inrunners, but that's a good thing. Anyway, with the stators on the outside, the heat transfer is more efficient than a similarly sized outrunner, like the big Turnigys.

The only caution I would have is maybe taking it easy off the line, so you don't put too much stress on the HV160s. I see that you have Mattls torque limiter on there, so I think this maybe won't be an issue.

Looking forward to more reports.

-- Gary

 

[rodgah]

excellent to see it going Eric!

I would have to say climbing a steep hill would be no more abusive on the system than accelerating over and over again on flat ground, especially if you are doing a constant speed or not coming to a dead stop all of the time. Doing some testing should give you a good idea either way.

Cheers

 

[Green Machine]

Ok so I am back from mount diablo. Not the best day although it was freaking beautiful up there. Nice to hear back from gary and rogah! Thanks guys! I am going to figure this out but had momentary set back.

I smoked one of the 3220's at the 7 mile mark...i had climbed 2500 feet and averaged 22mph on 5-8 percent grade. I burned a total of 8.67 amp hours which isnt bad considering i was climbing the entire time. I held back a lot on the speed since this was test run and didnt want to smoke on a warm up lap..oh well for that.

The trike is geared for 40mph....seems way low enough for 2 3220's.

These are dual 3220's delta motors 6 turn.

I used a thermometer and spot tested the temperature of the 3220 cases on the way up.

They went right up to 170 at the beginning of the ride and hovered there through every spot check.

Before the motor blew the grade turned a bit steeper. when i measured temperatures after the motor blew it was 270 degrees for the smoked motor and 205 degrees for the other.

The hv160 controllers which i have attached to a giant heat sink never reached over 110 degrees. This suprised me because reading up on ES the castle controller is the weak spot in this configuration...the controllers were fine in this case.

I have the option of running the same hill tomorrow with one motor and see if it was a defective motor that shot me down...i am thinking about it. Matt has recommended i dont do it unless i gear the trike down to 20mph which i could not stomach.

I want to come up with a 3220 configuration that can climb mount diablo which is i figure half of what pikes peak is.

I am lost on whether i should try again tomorrow with the same gearing with a single 3220 motor instead of 2....

 

[liveforphysics]

RC motors are honestly a bad pick for hill climbing IMHO.

Very very well suited towards intermittent high power bursts. Hill climbs kinda tend to separate the men from the boys as far as motors go though. It's really hard on them to have constant high load.

 

[Whiplash]

Were you running flat out the whole time? Truly, most motors would have a hard time @ WOT up greater than a 8% grade... that being said, I am still very surprised that a twin drive died, I have run my setup at about 25mph up 8+ miles of that kind of climb, mine is about 6-8% the whole time and climbs over 2000' . But I am running a single little 63/74 Turningy, and it did fine...BUT, I have several gears to choose from.. sorry to hear it, must have been a bad motor??

 

[Green Machine]

Whiplash,

I was on cruise control..taking it easy up the hill the entire time. And remember this hill was paved..imagine if i was offroad how hard it would be on the motor/controller.

RC motors are honestly a bad pick for hill climbing IMHO.

Very very well suited towards intermittent high power bursts. Hill climbs kinda tend to separate the men from the boys as far as motors go though. It's really hard on them to have constant high load.

You really have seemed to hit it on the head there.

Excellent for cruising around the city or high speed runs on flat lands but not the best choice for a grueling climb.

I will try the same hill again with different configurations of 3220's and keep a close eye on temps with a wireless thermometer...but for the most part my hopes are pretty bleak.

If possible i would like to find one (not dual) rc motor/controller combination that will make it up the 3500 feet mount diablo climb..if you see the hill its really not that bad..just a long gradual climb. THere were many guys pedaling up it today. I want to go back and conquer this blessed hill and do it geared at a reasonable speed (lets say 30-40mph).

What 3220 configuration would you guys suggest for this (delta or wye and how many turns)?

Any other RC motors out there you guys would suggest? Maybe platenburg predator?

Also as easy as this hill seemed..it seemed difficult for any bike...hub motor bikes included. I wonder how a big crystallite bike could take on this hill...i thought my trusty bmc 600ts would just smoke half way as well. Its just a 9 mile hill but it seems like an ebike killer. Makes a great test track and i want to use it.

Forget about pikes..i got a beast right in my back yard to conquer before i can even utter the word pikes again.

 

[Whiplash]

How fast do you want to travel climbing things like that? If you are geared for say, 40 and only traveling say 25, therin lies your problem. These motors like rpm, not load. If you want to do well up a grade, you need to be geared for the rpm that your motor is the most efficient, and you will be able to climb a LOT better. That is why I am working on my drives, if you want climbing power, you need to be able to select a gear that fits the grade at will. If I tried to climb my local hill in top gear (40mph), I likely would not make it a mile.. it would burn up. But by shifting down, and keeping the rpm closer to peak where it is efficient, I am able to "make the grade"!

 

[Green Machine]

Whiplash,

i would like to climb and average 30mph. It is a gradual ascent...5-7 percent. I figure my bmc can cruise up this thing and average 15...if i got the money, hassle and expense into a rc motor it should double that. That is just what i am figuring. Especially with 2 3220's and 2 castle 160's. I think i am being gentle by just asking for 30.

Yes I agree multiple gears would be a real nicety in a situation like this.

I was wondering if holding back is what caused the failure.

So if i keep the bike geared for 40mph, would you try tomorrow for a full speed full throttle attempt with one 3220 motor and one controller? That is something i would like to try if given some encouragment from you guys.

Because gearing down to 20mph is something i decided i dont want to do. Maybe gearing down to 30....

I have a wireless barbecue thermometer coming tomorrow from amazon and could keep a tabs on operating temps on the fly

 

[Whiplash]

I think a 3220 Wood handle 30 miles per hour If you geared for that speed. It's possible that holding back contributed To the failure but did not cause it. I suggest you gear it down to 30 and try it while monitoring it closely. That's a much more powerful motor than mine so it should be fine..

 

[Hillhater]

Have you checked what the failure mode of that motor was ?
Remember the batch of Astro's that someone else had that melted the epoxy ?. maybe yours is similar.
Trying the same climb again with less motor/power seems foolish. At least gear it down and do a few test runs to see if you can hold optimum motor rpm and practical current load, before you commit to the full climb again.
Any bike for hill climbing (powered or not) need a selection of gears to cope with different grades.

 

[Kepler]

I think the solution to your problem is some active motor cooling. These motors lend themselves to a very straightforward water cooling setup. I am thinking it would be as simple as wrapping some small bore copper tubing around the motors and connect this to a small pump and radiator setup. The pump could be from a windscreen washer setup and the radiator could be say an auto transmission cooler or even just a power steering cooler.

 

[GGoodrum]

If you reconfigured the 3220s for wye, it will lower your top speed by a factor of 1.73:1, without having to change the gearing. I think the major problem is that you are trying to run it at too low of a partial throttle.

One other potential factor might be that the tension on the belt drive between the two motors is not "optimum", causing one motor to have to work harder than the other?

Which turn motor are these? What is your current gearing?

-- Gary

 

[GGoodrum]

What would also help is a couple of Matt's heat sinks, or something similar.

 

[AussieJester]

I would take Matts advice and gear it down he knows these motors better than anyone here...

Alternatively, speak nicely to ThudSTeR and see if he has any 2 speeds left, i have no doubt whatsoever i could climb that hill without issue in first gear on my cruiser...


KiM

 

[liveforphysics]

If you reconfigured the 3220s for wye, it will lower your top speed by a factor of 1.73:1, without having to change the gearing. I think the major problem is that you are trying to run it at too low of a partial throttle.

One other potential factor might be that the tension on the belt drive between the two motors is not "optimum", causing one motor to have to work harder than the other?

Which turn motor are these? What is your current gearing?

-- Gary

WYE does NOT act like gearing. It slows it down, but it's still the same amount of heat for the same amount of torque produced by the motor, this is true if its delta-wye, 1 turn or 100-turn.

Mechanical gearing changes can actually mean greater sustained torque at the wheel for a given amount of motor heat, at the sacrifice of speed.


For any race/climb/performance setup, you always want to find peak mechanical RPM of the motor, then gear it to be there as much as possible. So, if the motor can handle 10,000rpm without flying apart, then you want to setup your gearing so the motors operate as close to 10,000rpm at possible. This will result in the best performance climbing the hill, the least load on the controllers, and the lowest possible torque production needs on the motor to hold a given climb rate.

 

[motomoto]

I have been running some smaller astroflight motors on my downhill mountain bike and have been frying them
right and left. I have decided to cut some slots in the cover end and see what that does. Yeah, so some dirt might get in there,
so what. There is some super heated air in there that needs ventilation in my book. I think heat kills the bearings more than
dirt anyways. I have a 3210 that is half baked but still runs fine, I am going to cut some slots and see what happens. I bet it
will solve my constant overheating problem.

 

[Green Machine]

Thanks guys a lot of good info here.

I think i have been pretty much talked into staying home and not trying to climb Mount Diablo again without changing gearing. I want to think the 3220 that i smoked today was somehow defective and the 2nd one will be just fine. I guess i wont know for sure without testing. I dont have any huge sprockets handy to change gearing to 20mph.

Also got a lot of great stuff from matt on the phone today. According to Matt i am in unchartered waters...that he hasnt known anyone to really tackle huge hills with a 3220. Most of the people who are running 3220s are flat landers.

Has anyone out there had experience with a 3220 on serious hills?

Some suggestions matt had.....lower gearing, heat sinks, computer fans in series, What it comes down to me is that these astro 3220 motors really need to be run through some kind of gear box before they will be effective hill climbers and fun machines. If your machine is geared for 20mph its not going to be a fun commuter....i think ebikes should do both...especially when you live in a hilly region like i do. I guess what i would really want is something that can go 60mph and climb big hills...for that it seems like i will need gearing. I am not sure how the larger hub motors (even 9c) have accomplished this without gearing. I saw a 9c climb huge steep hills and do 50mph on flats obv without any gearing change.

I wonder if anyone has run a 3220 through a rohloff or a nuvinci with success.

 

[Thud]

Hey Green,
Sorry to hear about the loss. If your going to climb mountains you need to face the reality of compromise.

It seems the Astro's are just motors after, subject to the laws of phyisics when it comes to thermal overlaod. RWP cooked a pair of em & now your getting into the fire pushing the performance limit.

Compairing them to a hub motor is apples & oranges. There is twice the copper in a hub motor & the unit you refer too was running at how many volts? how many amps? how long? Since you realize no Hub motor will offer the performance your looking for, the next logical step is to add multi range gearing to keep your motors from being overloaded.

I have never owned an Astro, but will say there is a very fine line with total motor out put in a real race senario that is applicable I think in your situation. You need to really re-gear for a 30mph top speed & test some more.
my outrunners are bullet proof for race abuse geared for 40mph.....push the gearing to 45mph & I can smoke em at will.

 

[wojtek]

i was climbing on my velokraft e-vk3 with turnigy motor with secondary drive to Rohloff [much less efficient so more heat] with a single fan in a hot day in Pyrenees - i mean PYRENEES highest road peak. Many kilometers up the mountains with fully packed bike [me 75kg + luggage probably another 25kg]

yes i was scared to blow the motor. But with the fan , and some breaks inbetween, i had NO problem whatsoever. The temperature in the motor wasn't anywhere close to 50C [not sure where the sensor is placed in the motor though]. OK I WAS NOT RACING :wink:

I think the problem with 3220 is that it is much harder to cool as it is pretty "sealed". But the quality is so much better than turnigy. If you make the gearing right and find a way to cool the beasts, there should not be a problem.

Now waiting for a full suspension trike to be built by velokraft with 3220 single motor... cant wait testing it !!!

Maybe for the race, you should consider AWD with 5405 motors

 

[flyinmonkie]

gears, gears, gears!

The more we push things, the more apparent it is gears keep the system happy. If you want to climb hills easily and go fast with a small high rpm electric motor, then you need gears to do that.

There is so much talk about a huge operating range and torque from zero with electric motors. It is true, but that does not mean every electric motor will pull you up a wall at any rpm and shoot you along the flat at mach 1. They still have an operating range they like to be in. Especially the RC motors we use. Think of what they were designed for. To turn a propeller on a plane or a blade on a chopper at basically a constant rpm. The range of rpm used in flying stuff is even smaller than the range used in cars.

So to keep the motor happy, use gears. It doesn't take 5 like a manual car, 2 or 3 will work. But it does take gears to give you an all around machine that you can commute with during the week and thrash on the trail or the hills on the weekend.

Clay

 

[Bluefang]

Everyone talks about gears etc and Luke talks about gearing the motor to be held in its best mechanical rpm, wouldnt this be the perfect situation for a CVT drive? Cut up a CVT from a 50cc scooter, they are often built up for 20hp with kevlar belts etc and pretty much all have a 300% gear range. They also have a gearbox at the back thats like a 7-1 ratio and you can pick them up for $50 from wreckers.

Motor would then rev up to say 10,000rpm then the belt would climb with the motor holding the same rpm. Ironicaly with a trike having pretty much the same sized wheel you could do away with your current reduction drive and just stick the scooter CVT in there, with all the excess crap removed i would say it weighs 5kg or less for a CVT capable of handling 20hp+ in a 300% ratio and a 7-1 gearbox.

 

[Miles]

It all comes down to the amount of torque you expect the motor to provide and for how long. That's it........

 

[GGoodrum]

I wonder if anyone has run a 3220 through a rohloff or a nuvinci with success.

There are several of us that are about to find out. Check out the Nuvinci developer kit thread. Anyway, I'm going to marry up one of Matt's v4 drives (the new Davinci won't fit the space I have...) with an Astro 3220-7t and his heavy duty belt drive with the torque limiter. The output of this will drive a Nuvinci on a 20" wheel. The Nuvinci specs say it'll handle 7hp continuous, with torque bursts to 96ft/lbs. It has a 350% ratio range, from .5:1 to 1.75:1.

-- Gary

 

[snowranger]

Eric,

Nice to hear you pushing the envelope with these RC motors and taking one for the team. At least we can get an idea of what they'are capable of.

I think more motor mass and gear flexibility are key. I wouldn't be surprised if a lowly stokemonkey setup could handle mt. diablo, albeit at a slow tank-like pace.