Acid test - Mountain Climb- 3220 motor hv160
- Thread starter Green Machine
- Start date
Green Machine
100 kW
I will crack open both motors and post pictures when i set up new nuvinci drive system. I have to drop the battery tray, remove seat etc to take off motors so i want to do all at once.
If its not overheating, what else could cause both motors to fail on long high load climb? Your right i am just assuming overheating but what else could it be?
I noticed that in the first mile temps of both motors went to 170 and held solid for 5 miles. We were stopping every mile to check motor and controller temps.
At the time of the failure, the frozen motor was 270 and the other motor was 205....so i am just assuming heat was the issue. I had 100 miles on the trike on semi hilli terrain (the streets of SF) before this failure with no issues. I guessed motor temps might be an issue because i did notice motors ran hot even on semi level ground.
If its not overheating, what else could cause both motors to fail on long high load climb? Your right i am just assuming overheating but what else could it be?
I noticed that in the first mile temps of both motors went to 170 and held solid for 5 miles. We were stopping every mile to check motor and controller temps.
At the time of the failure, the frozen motor was 270 and the other motor was 205....so i am just assuming heat was the issue. I had 100 miles on the trike on semi hilli terrain (the streets of SF) before this failure with no issues. I guessed motor temps might be an issue because i did notice motors ran hot even on semi level ground.
AussieJester
1 TW
Whiplash said:Green Machine said:So more information on my test....
Today i cut the burned 3220 motor loose and tested the "good" motor. Turns out the good motor is roasted as well. It still turns..but under load it starts clunking...remember this motor only got to 209 degrees during testing. Its possible that one one motor partially locking could have caused the other motor to instantly fry.
So my run up mount diablo cost me $1000 in astro motors...ouch ouch ouch. But i do it for the good of ES RC prosperity.Whats wild is at the start of this test i was very confident in this set up. As goodrum said from feeling how this trike roasted up steep short hills in the city, and the way it accelerated...i thought climbing even a 20 mile mountain would be a cinch. Many people agreed with me. I was kind of suprised that i smoked one motor..now i know i smoked 2 motors.
Miles...how should i figure out the right magical gearing number? i am kind of in uncharted waters and i think the right combination of gearing/cooling etc might work but the only way for sure is set it up and test. Even matt the 3220 expert has no idea what combination might work.
Remember initially when i thought about climbing pikes, multiple people told me the hv160 controller would be the weak link. It turns out the controllers never got over 107 degrees thanks to heat sink (will post pics later). The only way i know this is from this mount diablo test..may turn out on longer climb controllers will burn as well...but only one way to find out the way i see it.
As for the motor i either got to try lower gears or active cooling. A larger back sprocket will cost me $190...active cooling will cost about the same.
Since i dont want to climb the hill at anything slower than 35mph anyway i figure active cooling is my best option.
So the plan now is new nuvinci drive which shrouds the 3220 in heat sink, water cooling going through radiator mounted on battery tray, and a wireless thermometer to keep constant tabs on motor temp. Once motor temp exceed 190 degrees during the climb I will then stop test and invest in larger back sprocket.
I am not to confident on this first test because i will be running a single 3220 motor this time, and failed with dual 3220's. However active cooling and heat sink might be the ticket if my hunch motor temps are the only big issue for failure.
If when geared for 30mph and active cooling the motor still gets too hot its time to give up on 3220's altogether as a hill climbing option like lfp said....rc motors just might not be up to the task no matter what gearing or cooling. I think maybe a giant pletenbourgh predator might hold up, and maybe i will try that next.
In any case I think we will know for sure how solid the 3220 is after this test.
NOPE....
I climb those kinds of grades all the time, its simply a matter of finding the right gear for the job and motor power. I also think you should consider a Bike controller with halls since it will truly limit the current to the motor. I have yet to hurt my little 63/74 Turningy and it will do an easy 25MPH up my local 2000+ foot climb... Oh yeah, and with less than 30 amps continuous...
Rc Cycle analyst could also be used to limit current.
KiM
John in CR
100 TW
Geared for 0-30 in about a second sure sounds like it was geared low enough to me. What do these controllers do at partial throttle, because that seems the likely culprit to me. I'd certainly expect just one of those motors to be able to handle that grade unless it's somehow not getting any cooling air flow. Partial throttle on a significant hill is more stressful on the system than WOT, though I'd expect the controllers to go before the motors like they do on mine. Partial throttle + significant hill = controller death, and if the controller survives, it and the motor are always hotter at the top than at WOT as long as critical speed can be maintained. Don't ride an EV like an ICE....babying them is more stressful on the system and they thrive on WOT.
Hillhater
100 TW
Green Machine said:
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=29120
GGoodrum
1 MW
Actually, Matt's new drive is a DaVinci. The Nuvinci is the CVT hub that many of us are starting to play with. Come to think of it, though, one of these might solve your gearing problem in that it has a 350% ratio range, from .5:1 underdrive, to 1.75:1 overdrive. It is rated for 7hp continuous (around 5kW...) and can take torque bursts of 96 ft/lbs.
-- Gary
-- Gary
John in CR
100 TW
GGoodrum said:
But Gary, don't you think he was probably geared plenty low if he had that kind of power launch and a fairly limited top speed for dually's? For normal riding NuVinci inefficiency may pay for itself, but for a 9 mile climb all you've done is increased the load by what?...a minimum of 10%, the NuVinci losses? They're not going to hold up to high power. Why do you think they're finally selling them so cheap? Otherwise 6 pounds is nothing for every lightweight EV to gain over a 3:1 CVT.
Kurt
10 kW
Just last Sunday I climbed the local 1000 - 1500 ft hills in my area testing 60v on my trike. Although not as high they are very steep climbs as the roads just go straight up. My trike did 25 - 28mph using Matts reduction drive but a single Turnigy 80-100 and ebike controller limited to 45A. Pulls about 30 - 35amps . Motor temps were warm at the top "as in you could hold your hand on the motor indefinitely.
Like others have mentioned the gearing on the dual motor kmx looks ok judging by the acceleration in the video and the 40mph top speed. Just a shame testing is so expensive when you start braking things.
Keen to see what the inside of the Astro's and finding out were things went wrong.
Kurt
Like others have mentioned the gearing on the dual motor kmx looks ok judging by the acceleration in the video and the 40mph top speed. Just a shame testing is so expensive when you start braking things.
Keen to see what the inside of the Astro's and finding out were things went wrong.
Kurt
GGoodrum
1 MW
John in CR said:
I don't think it is necessarily geared right if he was averaging 22 mph. If the top speed is around 40, the motors aren't going to be at their most efficient speed, which is the main reason they are heating up. I'm guessing he was losing a lot more than 10%. With a Nuvinci, you can always have the motors closer to their sweet spot, so they should run cooler and a lot more efficient.
Another possibility is that there may have been a mechanical issue with the coupling between motors. Maybe this was binding, or too tight.
-- Gary
John in CR
100 TW
Gary,
Very true if 22mph was the target speed. My impression was that gearing was fine, but babying that throttle was the killer. However, if any of my bikes were "geared" for a top speed of only 40mph, I'd feel perfectly safe hitting a 7-8% hill stuck behind slow traffic at only 22. Sure I've got more surface area for cooling, but also a greater load and lower efficiency. That RC controller must be doing something different at partial throttle.
300lbs total load up a 9% grade at 22mph takes less than 1600 watts with a trike like that, and split between 2 great motors. Something is wrong, way wrong, and without the brakes being on or something like that, either the motors are just plain faulty or that RC controller does something strange at partial throttle and significant load.
Very true if 22mph was the target speed. My impression was that gearing was fine, but babying that throttle was the killer. However, if any of my bikes were "geared" for a top speed of only 40mph, I'd feel perfectly safe hitting a 7-8% hill stuck behind slow traffic at only 22. Sure I've got more surface area for cooling, but also a greater load and lower efficiency. That RC controller must be doing something different at partial throttle.
300lbs total load up a 9% grade at 22mph takes less than 1600 watts with a trike like that, and split between 2 great motors. Something is wrong, way wrong, and without the brakes being on or something like that, either the motors are just plain faulty or that RC controller does something strange at partial throttle and significant load.
GGoodrum
1 MW
Even one of these motors is crazy powerful, but two? I have a really hard time thinking these don't have enough power, whatever the gearing, to get a 100 lb trike up this mountain. If it were an HV160 controller problem, they would've fried, for sure, but they were lukewarm. I still think a mechanical issue with the coupling of the two motors is the likely cause.
-- Gary
-- Gary
Green Machine
100 kW
Yes I agree there could have been some wierd issue thats why i am thinking its just not some gearing thing.
i was very suprised there was any issue based on how well this trike was performing before the big race day. At 40 mph this trike was way under geared. There is a giant steep hill by my house and the trike would blast up it close to 40mph. Rich Fechter actually rode up that hill and was impressed.
It had so much power that you couldnt apply it all at once or the back tire would start slipping.
We were having belt slipping issues and I had just installed a new belt..and we had torqued the motors to get the belt as tight as possible.
So it is possible the two motors had become unaligned. We had not tested the trike at all on level ground after installing the new belt.
I agree something does not seem right. Maybe it was the alignment maybe the partial throttle.
Also the rider was 110lbs (my wife) and pedal assisting up the hill so rider and trike was just over 200lbs.
the down side is the rider was getting use to the trike so was not riding it properly (fast enough)
Basically she was riding like a girl...not getting past 25mph. But the controllers seemed fine so we continued to grind up the hill.
I want to try the whole thing again this time with matts new davinci and me driving.
i was very suprised there was any issue based on how well this trike was performing before the big race day. At 40 mph this trike was way under geared. There is a giant steep hill by my house and the trike would blast up it close to 40mph. Rich Fechter actually rode up that hill and was impressed.
It had so much power that you couldnt apply it all at once or the back tire would start slipping.
We were having belt slipping issues and I had just installed a new belt..and we had torqued the motors to get the belt as tight as possible.
So it is possible the two motors had become unaligned. We had not tested the trike at all on level ground after installing the new belt.
I agree something does not seem right. Maybe it was the alignment maybe the partial throttle.
Also the rider was 110lbs (my wife) and pedal assisting up the hill so rider and trike was just over 200lbs.
the down side is the rider was getting use to the trike so was not riding it properly (fast enough)
Basically she was riding like a girl...not getting past 25mph. But the controllers seemed fine so we continued to grind up the hill.
I want to try the whole thing again this time with matts new davinci and me driving
.
MitchJi
10 MW
Hi Eric,
). If you engineer a proper solution the testing process should be verification and minor tweaking rather than blowing two motors per run. Can you imagine if bridges were designed and built that way (but the only way for sure is set it up [build it] and test)?
Maybe even if you do turn up a mechanical issue it might be a good idea to ask Miles to help with some ballpark calculations to see if it should work.
That seems like a reasonable theory, so checking all the possible mechanical issues and very careful testing is probably a good first step.GGoodrum said:
Miles said:
Miles said:
But if you don't turn up a mechanical problem it sounds like Miles is willing to help. If that's correct IMO you should take him up on his offer and then carefully test the system based on engineered results. That is very likely to be a much more efficient and much less costly approach and we can all learn from the process (selfish motive hereGreen Machine said:
). If you engineer a proper solution the testing process should be verification and minor tweaking rather than blowing two motors per run. Can you imagine if bridges were designed and built that way (but the only way for sure is set it up [build it] and test)?Maybe even if you do turn up a mechanical issue it might be a good idea to ask Miles to help with some ballpark calculations to see if it should work.
recumpence
1 GW
One thing I have learned about these RC motors is; gearing is super critical. I mean, gearing is always important. But, with small, high RPM motors, gearing seems even more critical. Even with RC cars, I would gear up one tooth at a time on the motor gear untill the motor got too hot. Then I would gear back down one tooth.
These motors are sensitive to being perfectly geared for their application---- when they are being pushed really hard.
This is all guess-work, however, because Green is running into the unknown.
Matt
These motors are sensitive to being perfectly geared for their application---- when they are being pushed really hard.
This is all guess-work, however, because Green is running into the unknown.
Matt
Which is why I keep trying to tease an objective out of him.....recumpence said:
Heat generated in the motor is related to the torque it produces. Torque at the wheel needs to match load. Load, for this case, is predominately determined by weight and gradient. Wheel size is a factor in the matching of motor torque and load.
Let's have an example:
For GM's 200lb weight figure, using a 26" wheeled bike it would take about 10Nm, at the wheel, to maintain 25mph on the flat - going up a 10% gradient this would increase to 39Nm. Max. cont. torque for the 3220 (with no special heat dissipation measures taken) is around 5.2Nm.
For GM's 200lb weight figure, using a 26" wheeled bike it would take about 10Nm, at the wheel, to maintain 25mph on the flat - going up a 10% gradient this would increase to 39Nm. Max. cont. torque for the 3220 (with no special heat dissipation measures taken) is around 5.2Nm.
Whiplash
1 MW
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Miles said:
OK, but wouldn't you need to take into consideration the torque multiplication from any and all gearing? I mean if he had a 5:1 gear, then that 5.2Nm is now approx. 26 at the wheel RPM (not taking any frictional losses into consideration). I still say this is a simple gearing problem. gear it down and wind it higher and you will be fine. I have to admit though, the coupling of two motors, that could be slightly different KV's or getting slightly different amps and they will create a lot more heat....
Of course it's a gearing problem. I'm just trying to ground it a bit.
If you need 40Nm at the wheel, then you need to divide the 40Nm by the 5Nm that the motor can sustain which gives you a required reduction of 8:1
If you want to go up a steep hill (16%), you'll need a minimum reduction of about 12:1.
If you want to increase your speed to 40mph, you'll need a minimum reduction of about 15:1.
Anyway, it gives you a place to dive in for empirical work..... That has to be better than "Astricide"....
If you need 40Nm at the wheel, then you need to divide the 40Nm by the 5Nm that the motor can sustain which gives you a required reduction of 8:1
If you want to go up a steep hill (16%), you'll need a minimum reduction of about 12:1.
If you want to increase your speed to 40mph, you'll need a minimum reduction of about 15:1.
Anyway, it gives you a place to dive in for empirical work..... That has to be better than "Astricide"....
Green Machine
100 kW
Hi Miles, i really appreciate any help you could offer. I could dig up all those numbers you need.
The problem is i have no easy way to change gearing rather than ordering a $180 sprocket, so i am kind of commited on my current path which is to run up the same hill this time with a single motor and a cooling system.
I am not riding to the top of this mountain every day, but it is great testing ground to see how delicate this system is.
What i want to know is how bulletproof is the 3220...what it will handle in day to day use.
If i want to go to the top of mount tam, one of my favorite rides on a bmc hub motored bike that i do 5 or 6 times a year...i want to know if my 3220 powered bike will make it without having to change rear sprockets and limit my max speed to 30mph. Forget changing sprockets i would never take the time to do it unless planning to race the trike...i want something i can just go out and cruise with no worries of breaking down. That is important factor for me on my bikes. I thought the 3220 system was the answer but it may not be.
I want to know if a 3220 system could even dream of off road trail riding.
Is the 3220 160 combination a delicate combination that you have to worry riding off road etc...or can you pound the hell out of it and it just gets warm.
Those are the questions i have.
In essence i want my machine to do 40mph and climb 2500 foot hills at a minimum with the gearing i have now. If it not capable of that with some cooling modifications then i dont know what to say. I like cruising around the big hills we have around here with my bmc powered bikes with no fear of smoking anything...and if i do smoke something its just a 200 dollar incident.
Also i really agree with the sentiment that something else went wrong such as belt alignment etc. This is over 20hp in this set up it should not have any problem on this grade at this gearing.
The problem is i have no easy way to change gearing rather than ordering a $180 sprocket, so i am kind of commited on my current path which is to run up the same hill this time with a single motor and a cooling system.
I am not riding to the top of this mountain every day, but it is great testing ground to see how delicate this system is.
What i want to know is how bulletproof is the 3220...what it will handle in day to day use.
If i want to go to the top of mount tam, one of my favorite rides on a bmc hub motored bike that i do 5 or 6 times a year...i want to know if my 3220 powered bike will make it without having to change rear sprockets and limit my max speed to 30mph. Forget changing sprockets i would never take the time to do it unless planning to race the trike...i want something i can just go out and cruise with no worries of breaking down. That is important factor for me on my bikes. I thought the 3220 system was the answer but it may not be.
I want to know if a 3220 system could even dream of off road trail riding.
Is the 3220 160 combination a delicate combination that you have to worry riding off road etc...or can you pound the hell out of it and it just gets warm.
Those are the questions i have.
In essence i want my machine to do 40mph and climb 2500 foot hills at a minimum with the gearing i have now. If it not capable of that with some cooling modifications then i dont know what to say. I like cruising around the big hills we have around here with my bmc powered bikes with no fear of smoking anything...and if i do smoke something its just a 200 dollar incident.
Also i really agree with the sentiment that something else went wrong such as belt alignment etc. This is over 20hp in this set up it should not have any problem on this grade at this gearing.
You need to start thinking in terms of torque. "Gearing for 30mph" doesn't mean a lot, unless you specify the motor speed and wheel size, as well. Once you've met your minimum reduction requirement for weight, slope, speed (air resistance) etc., in order to keep the lid on motor torque, you can then start thinking about the motor speed....
This? http://www.climbbybike.com/climb.asp?Col=Mount-Tamalpais&qryMountainID=11333Green Machine said:
It says here that the max. gradient on Mt Diablo is 22%............
http://www.climbbybike.com/climb.asp?Col=Mount-Diablo---North-Gate&qryMountainID=7713
wojtek
100 kW
I'm getting Davinci 3220 for the next off-road trike build. 20'' wheels, HV160, 60t rear ring.
I imagine off-road is quite challenging for setting astro up properly. You get plenty of low speed riding / some high speed riding on better quality firetracks and roads, steep hills, muddy terrain where the back wheel spins, get stuck while climbing a steep hill and trying to start up again.
+ the fun factor which is doing some crazy sh*t stuff
Plenty of vibration, mud, water, dust, little rocks around.
[Now im using sealed stock xlyte 3540 for offroad. so far so good but starting to hear rubbing inside the motor] But what i want to say, each time i get back home, the trike is covered with plenty amount of dust and mud. pretty much all over the place.
I imagine off-road is quite challenging for setting astro up properly. You get plenty of low speed riding / some high speed riding on better quality firetracks and roads, steep hills, muddy terrain where the back wheel spins, get stuck while climbing a steep hill and trying to start up again.
+ the fun factor which is doing some crazy sh*t stuff
Plenty of vibration, mud, water, dust, little rocks around.
[Now im using sealed stock xlyte 3540 for offroad. so far so good but starting to hear rubbing inside the motor] But what i want to say, each time i get back home, the trike is covered with plenty amount of dust and mud. pretty much all over the place.
Hillhater
100 TW
Anyone going "off road" , or "hill work" with an ebike, is a fool if they dont plan to use a "through the gears" or some kind of system to change gearing to suit the changeable conditions.
GM.. that is one of the main reasons why Opti were so effective at Pike's P.
GM.. that is one of the main reasons why Opti were so effective at Pike's P.
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