Acid test - Mountain Climb- 3220 motor hv160

[flathill]

Also consider the heat from the bearings at high rpm...
Water or ATF cooling is likely the best solution

 

[Kepler]

The way I see it, Green wants the best of both worlds, high speed capability and reliable serious hill climbing ability. A 2 speed gearbox make lots of sense however it will entail a complete redesign, added complexity and probably a noisier drive system.

Option 2 is for better management of the heat produced by the motors under load. To me this seems like the logical path to take and should solve the problem with out redesigning the drive train.

 

[Whiplash]

I would have to agree, but think of how fun gears would be?

 

[Dieter]

Since Green was not adverse to using two motors, would it be impractical to have one motor geared to run at his commute speed and the other geared for those steeper hills, with the ability to switch over on the move. It may be the work involved would not make it worthwhile.

Dieter

 

[Wheazel]

How much power were you pulling on average across the system?

 

[Miles]

Has anyone out there had experience with a 3220 on serious hills?

You need to specify the gradient, gross weight and wheel diameter then, work back from that to arrive at the gearing that will keep the motor torque at a reasonable level......

 

[liveforphysics]

Has anyone out there had experience with a 3220 on serious hills?

You need to specify the gradient, gross weight and wheel diameter then, work back from that to arrive at the gearing that will keep the motor torque at a reasonable level......

Yep.

That's as simple as this is. No magic, no voodoo.

 

[kevo]

Has anyone out there had experience with a 3220 on serious hills?

Not a 3220, but a ten turn 3210 has worked for my brother and I. Old La Honda, Berkeley Tunnel and Grizzly Peak. My brother did a Canada to Mexico trip along the Cascades and Sierras. Serious hills included climbs like Diablo including Yosemite Tioga Pass (3200ft gain to 9943ft), Death Ride Monitor Pass, Shasta and numerous others. Granted he was going much slower (17 mph ave) but he was concentrating on efficiency including greater than 50% regen. We are using Grinhill's 16:1 gearing. To get the faster speeds on the rollers a change of gears is required of course. Astro motors can climb and do speed. Looking forward to your resolution of achieving both speed and climbing with the 3220's!

 

[SoSauty]

This summer I took a ride in the Sierras with 1 mile+ climbs that provided sorta 1/4mi. level then another mile of 5-9% climb. Ran an 8T Astro 3210 with substantial heat sink averaging 18mph up these climbs. Didn't have my infared thermometer but could tell the motor didn't exceed 160f; could put my finger on it for a second.

The 205f and 270f difference is curious. Could the smoked motor sit in a dead air location near another heat source, the other motor? Analyze your airflow situation for possible easy cooling gains.

An inrunners' temp can change rapidly. Hard to hold back when you need power and it's there with just a twist of the throttle, for 30sec anyway Slightly lower gearing can make a noticeable difference. IMO get the 3220 rebuilt, drill holes in end of motor cans (you can put screen over the openings), install Matts' heatsinks, and gear for 35mph (Thud's 2 speed or a Nuvunci are options). The inrunners will heat up about the same at 25mph as 35mph. A good freewheel will let you fly down Diablo 'an save amp/hrs; Fun

We would be very interested to see the inside of your dead 3220 Sorry about your loss, the Astros are quality, the RC e-bike application is sorta unexplored frontier.

 

[Hillhater]

Have you checked what the failure mode of that motor was ?
Remember the batch of Astro's that someone else had that melted the epoxy ?. maybe yours is similar..

Remember this..
Astro 3220 and HV 160 heat and other issues
http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=29120

 

[Green Machine]

Yes i am going to crack open the case and provide pictures to you guys.

Also i really like the idea of some kind of water cooling system.

Where the motors were located they see very little airflow (under the seat of the trike)

 

[Green Machine]

Ok so i am going to try the same hill with one motor with gearing t0 30mph and matt's new nuvince drive which will help with motor cooling....also adding a wireless thermometer to keep constant tabs on motor temp...

 

[Kepler]

So just one motor now?

 

[remf]

So Pikes Peak will have to wait 'till next year...until then Optibike are still Kings of the Mountain. John S - lowco2 - won in a time of 1.07 on the new R-Series 48V Opti...still think you can beat that???

 

[MitchJi]

Hi Eric,

The hv160 controllers which i have attached to a giant heat sink never reached over 110 degrees. This surprised me because reading up on ES the castle controller is the weak spot in this configuration...the controllers were fine in this case.

Would you mind posting a picture of the hv160 controllers/giant heat sink combo?

Ok so i am going to try the same hill with one motor with gearing to 30mph and matt's new nuvince drive which will help with motor cooling....also adding a wireless thermometer to keep constant tabs on motor temp...

Hopefully with Matt's heat sink on the exposed portion of the 3220?

If the improved heat sinking doesn't fix the problem I think gears should be next on the list.

 

[Green Machine]

So Pikes Peak will have to wait 'till next year...until then Optibike are still Kings of the Mountain. John S - lowco2 - won in a time of 1.07 on the new R-Series 48V Opti...still think you can beat that???

Yeah optibike just won the pikes peak yesterday with a bike capable of 35mph max while climbing. It averaged somewhere in the high 20's. They had 7 bikes enter, 7 bikes finish,and took 1-7th places.

Pretty impressive.

I expected the otptibike to beat its own last years record by a large margin.

Thats a big reason why i didnt want make a 40 hour round trip drive with a bike geared for under 40mph. 20 -30mph would not be enough so i decided to pass. But yes if i wouldnt have waited until last minute to acid test this machine, I am sure with another week to get the motor heat issue in line it would have crushed the opti....for one thing i am sure the opti does not have this type of swing your neck back acceleration....40mph in about 2 seconds.

That being said the biggest challenge for a machine like a 3220 hv 160 is to finish without something frying. Its impressive that all 7 optibikes finished the race with no incidents. Hats off to opti for building a reliable and strong hill climbing machine. Also the optibike looks really slick for a machine capable of such feats.

Its about time someone brought a 40mph electric bike to market which opti is announcing today...today is a big day and i am happy that it is an American company making this advancement.

 

[CraigT]

I am sure with another week to get the motor heat issue in line it would have crushed the opti..

Chessmonster, I hope we don't have to spend the next 12 months listening to what "would have beaten the Optibike" if you had only shown up to the starting line.....

Seriously though, We would love to see more E-bikes there next year- as supporting this type of event is critical to increasing exposure for all types of E-bikes.

The promoter of the event is all about expanding the E-bike class. We had an absolute blast, with stellar weather and lots of good peeps.

Craig Taber
Optibike

 

[Green Machine]

Climbing pikes is no easy feat for a bike that weighs less than 100lbs. Finishing 7 bikes out of 7 is simply amazing. Also those bikes looks like bikes..not electric monstrosities. That makes it even tougher to win pikes on bikes that looks like a bike...another reason i wasnt too interested in entering a tadpole trike in pikes.

Craig I am assuming the bikes that finished were under 100lbs with external packs? My trike with 60amp hours 48volt is still a tad under 100lbs.

Anyway i am forgetting all about pikes which is a 40 hour round trip drive and focusing on a half-pike (mount diablo) which is a 40 minute drive from my house.

If i can climb diablo 3 times i might consider that drive to pikes next year but i will bring a bike and not a trike.

Congratulations once again to optibike not only for winning pikes but having the balls to release to the public a 40mph machine that any ES guy would (secretly) love to own.

 

[itchynackers]

Would love to hear some of the consumption stats on those optis, if they keep track. How many wh consumed per bike?

 

[CraigT]

Thanks Chessmonster.. for me, the real challenge on Pikes Peak is the sheer size of it- ~8000 vertical foot is alot- and for the last 3000 ft or so, I was just sucking wind- the air is thin, and the route emerges onto a completely exposed ridge above tree line with howling wind. The hardest part of the ascent is without question the last few miles- as the pitch of the road gets STEEP and sustained for 8+ miles.

I used APPROX 1300-1600 wh for the climb. this is an ESTIMATE, we will publish the actual WH used later on this week, with GPS data and heart rate info for our top rider.

Craig Taber

 

[kfong]

What if you replaced the back with one that can be water cooled, this can be easily done on a CNC. The other option is a water jacket surrounding the case. Wrapping the motor with copper tubing would be an easy way to do this. Not sure how to make such a part on a CNC without a rotary table. You would need a small radiator and good pump to be effective.

Yes i am going to crack open the case and provide pictures to you guys.

Also i really like the idea of some kind of water cooling system.

Where the motors were located they see very little airflow (under the seat of the trike)

 

[Miles]

Excuse me for going back to this again but, unless you have in mind the amount of torque you want the motor to provide, how can you design an effective cooling system?

 

[Green Machine]

So more information on my test....

Today i cut the burned 3220 motor loose and tested the "good" motor. Turns out the good motor is roasted as well. It still turns..but under load it starts clunking...remember this motor only got to 209 degrees during testing. Its possible that one one motor partially locking could have caused the other motor to instantly fry.

So my run up mount diablo cost me $1000 in astro motors...ouch ouch ouch. But i do it for the good of ES RC prosperity. Whats wild is at the start of this test i was very confident in this set up. As goodrum said from feeling how this trike roasted up steep short hills in the city, and the way it accelerated...i thought climbing even a 20 mile mountain would be a cinch. Many people agreed with me. I was kind of suprised that i smoked one motor..now i know i smoked 2 motors.

Miles...how should i figure out the right magical gearing number? i am kind of in uncharted waters and i think the right combination of gearing/cooling etc might work but the only way for sure is set it up and test. Even matt the 3220 expert has no idea what combination might work.

Remember initially when i thought about climbing pikes, multiple people told me the hv160 controller would be the weak link. It turns out the controllers never got over 107 degrees thanks to heat sink (will post pics later). The only way i know this is from this mount diablo test..may turn out on longer climb controllers will burn as well...but only one way to find out the way i see it.

As for the motor i either got to try lower gears or active cooling. A larger back sprocket will cost me $190...active cooling will cost about the same.

Since i dont want to climb the hill at anything slower than 35mph anyway i figure active cooling is my best option.

So the plan now is new nuvinci drive which shrouds the 3220 in heat sink, water cooling going through radiator mounted on battery tray, and a wireless thermometer to keep constant tabs on motor temp. Once motor temp exceed 190 degrees during the climb I will then stop test and invest in larger back sprocket.

I am not to confident on this first test because i will be running a single 3220 motor this time, and failed with dual 3220's. However active cooling and heat sink might be the ticket if my hunch motor temps are the only big issue for failure.

If when geared for 30mph and active cooling the motor still gets too hot its time to give up on 3220's altogether as a hill climbing option like lfp said....rc motors just might not be up to the task no matter what gearing or cooling. I think maybe a giant pletenbourgh predator might hold up, and maybe i will try that next.

In any case I think we will know for sure how solid the 3220 is after this test.

 

[Whiplash]

So more information on my test....

Today i cut the burned 3220 motor loose and tested the "good" motor. Turns out the good motor is roasted as well. It still turns..but under load it starts clunking...remember this motor only got to 209 degrees during testing. Its possible that one one motor partially locking could have caused the other motor to instantly fry.

So my run up mount diablo cost me $1000 in astro motors...ouch ouch ouch. But i do it for the good of ES RC prosperity. Whats wild is at the start of this test i was very confident in this set up. As goodrum said from feeling how this trike roasted up steep short hills in the city, and the way it accelerated...i thought climbing even a 20 mile mountain would be a cinch. Many people agreed with me. I was kind of suprised that i smoked one motor..now i know i smoked 2 motors.

Miles...how should i figure out the right magical gearing number? i am kind of in uncharted waters and i think the right combination of gearing/cooling etc might work but the only way for sure is set it up and test. Even matt the 3220 expert has no idea what combination might work.

Remember initially when i thought about climbing pikes, multiple people told me the hv160 controller would be the weak link. It turns out the controllers never got over 107 degrees thanks to heat sink (will post pics later). The only way i know this is from this mount diablo test..may turn out on longer climb controllers will burn as well...but only one way to find out the way i see it.

As for the motor i either got to try lower gears or active cooling. A larger back sprocket will cost me $190...active cooling will cost about the same.

Since i dont want to climb the hill at anything slower than 35mph anyway i figure active cooling is my best option.

So the plan now is new nuvinci drive which shrouds the 3220 in heat sink, water cooling going through radiator mounted on battery tray, and a wireless thermometer to keep constant tabs on motor temp. Once motor temp exceed 190 degrees during the climb I will then stop test and invest in larger back sprocket.

I am not to confident on this first test because i will be running a single 3220 motor this time, and failed with dual 3220's. However active cooling and heat sink might be the ticket if my hunch motor temps are the only big issue for failure.

If when geared for 30mph and active cooling the motor still gets too hot its time to give up on 3220's altogether as a hill climbing option like lfp said....rc motors just might not be up to the task no matter what gearing or cooling. I think maybe a giant pletenbourgh predator might hold up, and maybe i will try that next.

In any case I think we will know for sure how solid the 3220 is after this test.

NOPE....

I climb those kinds of grades all the time, its simply a matter of finding the right gear for the job and motor power. I also think you should consider a Bike controller with halls since it will truly limit the current to the motor. I have yet to hurt my little 63/74 Turningy and it will do an easy 25MPH up my local 2000+ foot climb... Oh yeah, and with less than 30 amps continuous...

 

[Hillhater]

..Turns out the good motor is roasted as well. It still turns..but under load it starts clunking...remember this motor only got to 209 degrees during testing. ..

You know, figuring out what ACTUALLY failed in these motors, rather than assuming it was overheating... may help you sort out a working bike.
When are you going to strip them down ?