Adaptto Mini-E/Max-E Owner's Thread
- Thread starter GCinDC
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Merlin said:mh....my BMS is set for 3.2v (lvc) because its only for emergency (cut off) for me.
that a RC charger is different i know. thats why i asked "why" adapttos doesnt do it in the same way since it knows all cell voltages
do you charge through the controller? with a coil or with a 82v charger?
its the charge voltage (= max total pack voltage) and maximum single cell voltage you shold adjust
those are my settings for 20s 25R battery:
charge settings:
charge voltage 82,5V (4,125V/cell)
battery and bms settings:
HVC 84V (4,20V/cell) -> is set higher in order that regen works when battery is fully charged
LVC 66V (3,3V/cell)
max cell voltage: 4,22V -> again set higher for the regenerative braking + a little more room for cell drift
min cell voltage: 3,28V
balancing voltage: 4,15V
regarding balancing voltage:
a new battery, or one that is in good shape, normally doesn't need balancing because it doesn't have a drift (should be below 2-5mV if you measure with a calibrated multimeter)
now, due to the fact that adaptto BMS isn't that accurate (i would say within +-15mV), i do not want that the BMS brings such well balanced battery a little more out of balance.
or with other words: the BMS is there to be on the safe side, but it will not help if there are one or more group of cells in your battery with higher self discharge, because the bleeding current is much to low.
so far no problems with those settings 8)
Merlin said:
I don't think mine does this, I don't sit there and watch it but I know towards the end of my charge the charging watts will drop.
Most of the charge my charging watts are 900
Towards the end of the charge it will slowly fall from 900 watts to zero watts. I didn't notice it starting and stopping hundreds of times?
have i missed something here. , because as far as my charging is concerned (using the adaptto bms system) it does not matter what you set max battery pack charge voltage or HVC to, these are ignored and it is only the individual cell settings that determine the charge process.
I found that by setting the BALANCING voltage of the cells HIGHER(4.16 as example) and MAXIMUM cell voltage LOWER (4.13 as example) then the first cell to reach 4.13 gets bled off much quicker to pull up the other cells rather than having the balance at a lower value which takes forever. The charger automatically flicks between balance and charge mode so you get intermittent amps being pumped into the pack as well as intermittent bleeding of the top runnaway cell.
The weird thing is the lights on the bms board do not light up when doing it this way.... But it works.
I have alao found that i need to have both the hvc AND the max(pack)voltage cutoff settings set slightly higher for regen to work from a fully charged pack (in other words not just the hvc setting).
But again, these are just my observations...
I found that by setting the BALANCING voltage of the cells HIGHER(4.16 as example) and MAXIMUM cell voltage LOWER (4.13 as example) then the first cell to reach 4.13 gets bled off much quicker to pull up the other cells rather than having the balance at a lower value which takes forever. The charger automatically flicks between balance and charge mode so you get intermittent amps being pumped into the pack as well as intermittent bleeding of the top runnaway cell.
The weird thing is the lights on the bms board do not light up when doing it this way.... But it works.
I have alao found that i need to have both the hvc AND the max(pack)voltage cutoff settings set slightly higher for regen to work from a fully charged pack (in other words not just the hvc setting).
But again, these are just my observations...
GmagNeato
100 W
brumbrum said:
I may need to try this, as here is what I've experienced. With max cell voltage set at 4.17 and balancing starting at 4.15, when the cells hit 4.15 it starts balancing and the lights on the BMS light up and flash, BMS status says "balancing", in charge screen it says "current to low" and charger does restart intermittently. But even leaving it overnight to balance there is NO change in the delta the next day. WAY TOO SLOW. My pack at top charge has a delta of between .018 - .021. Throughout the discharge cycle this delta actually becomes smaller (as low as .013). I don't think this amount of drift is that bad, but I am just concerned the the BMS may not be doing it's job at all?
I am a little concerned with the LED's not lighting up though as you say Brum. How long or about how many full charges have you done it this way? Does the BMS get heat up while it's bleeding the top cells? Mine does while balancing and the lights flashing.
If i charge/balance like you do, yes the bms lights flash and the bms unit gets warm.
If i charge/balance like i have stated above, the lights do not switch on and off and the bms stays cold. I checked to see also if the balance tap leads get warm(just incase) but they stay cold too. I have found that in the first 30 to 60 minutes(as long as the highest cell is say 4.10 or higher) it initially bleeds off much quicker and the overall differnces between highest and lowest cells decreases.
If i charge/balance like i have stated above, the lights do not switch on and off and the bms stays cold. I checked to see also if the balance tap leads get warm(just incase) but they stay cold too. I have found that in the first 30 to 60 minutes(as long as the highest cell is say 4.10 or higher) it initially bleeds off much quicker and the overall differnces between highest and lowest cells decreases.
GmagNeato
100 W
brumbrum said:
The more I think of this the less I understand it. It appears that your BMS is not activating at all. Which would make sense because the Balancing voltage you have set is not being reached and therefore should not be triggering the BMS to begin balancing. So I wonder what is balancing your pack? Or what is bleeding down the first cells to hit your specified max cell voltage?
GmagNeato said:
What actually might be happening is the other cells intermittently still see some charge but the top cell that is effectively full just stays there. The charging goes in and out of balance and charge mode when i do this so it is the other cells that are just catching up, hence the voltage difference between top and bottom cells reduces.
Again, this is just what i have observed by doing this.
Allex suggested setting the balance voltage higher than the max cell voltage, but went on to say that once the top cell reaches the set max voltage then to change the parameters in the bms settings by making the balance voltage the same as the lowest cell in the pack , so the cells 'balance down' to the lowest cell rather than balance up like most others seem to do in their bms settings. I hope that makes sense?
better we see the BMS as safety device and i shit on the balancing function..
If one has a LiIon battery like 20s10p, balancing is not necessary and due to the inaccuracy of the voltage sense inputs, the BMS "believes" it brings or it should bring the pack back into balance, whereas the battery already is or was in perfect condition.
Thats the reason why you should set the balancing voltage HIGHER as the charge voltage.
If one has a LiIon battery like 20s10p, balancing is not necessary and due to the inaccuracy of the voltage sense inputs, the BMS "believes" it brings or it should bring the pack back into balance, whereas the battery already is or was in perfect condition.
Thats the reason why you should set the balancing voltage HIGHER as the charge voltage.
Allex
100 MW
I did notice that in the latest firmwares,, if you set balancing voltage higher than cell voltage, it would start the balancing. This should not be the case. Because when you do set balancing higher than max charge voltage this means that you dont want the BMS to balance the already perfectly balanced(from the factory) li-ion pack
mhh that works maybe for 18650.
but iam a lipo guy
its no question for me to balance them from time to time with my junsi, but all i want is a normal charge and normal "end of charge"
i dont get it how it could be work when i setup 4.20v cell max and maybe 4.19v balance voltage.
the charger will try to reach 4.20(84v)
the bms wants to bleed the cells down to 4.19 (83,8v)
the charger see: oh battery has only 83,8v...and start to charge again.
this game goes on till i stop the charge....
if i setup charge to 84v 4.2v and balance to 4.21 it will never be balanced(ok its a small range) but its only for example.
i think i will email oleg and see what he think about.
till i got an answer i will go madins way. 83,8v charge and 4.22 balance.
but iam a lipo guy
its no question for me to balance them from time to time with my junsi, but all i want is a normal charge and normal "end of charge"
i dont get it how it could be work when i setup 4.20v cell max and maybe 4.19v balance voltage.
the charger will try to reach 4.20(84v)
the bms wants to bleed the cells down to 4.19 (83,8v)
the charger see: oh battery has only 83,8v...and start to charge again.
this game goes on till i stop the charge....
if i setup charge to 84v 4.2v and balance to 4.21 it will never be balanced(ok its a small range) but its only for example.
i think i will email oleg and see what he think about.
till i got an answer i will go madins way. 83,8v charge and 4.22 balance.
Allex
100 MW
Yes, this is how it works, shuts of the charge when it reaches the set voltage and starts again with small current(bout 0,5-3A and not 30A like in your case) when the BMS did a bit of bleed.
A hobby charger does the same(at least my hyperion) it stops the charge once a cell hits 4.2 - bleed it down and slowly charge the others.
A hobby charger does the same(at least my hyperion) it stops the charge once a cell hits 4.2 - bleed it down and slowly charge the others.
What i have stated above i only do because i have my no.1 cell in the bms sequence that always charges faster than the other 19 cells lower down the pecking order. This cell always goes 1.00v above the others by time it gets to the maximum cell voltage, then the charging continues and the other cells begin catching up and within one hour there is only 0.50v difference between top and bottom cells, which for me is reasonable enough for my lipo pack. Usually when in use the bike under load makes the pack cells quickly balance each other out and at rest the voltage differences are 0.17v or similar.
Allex said:
i will make a video....
its full, it "ends" with current to low message, wait for 2-3 seconds and start charging with up to 1500w....
that happens maybe 15-20 times and each time it pushes a bit less on start charging.
maybe
charging with 1800w
stopped at 84v
starts again....up to 1700w
stopped
starts .......
1600
1500
1400
1300
...
did your hyperion really STOP the charge?
never had one..only junsi and powerlabs...but they reduce the charge without stopping.
like all china chargers also do....(CC-CV)
like i said.
this 1200wh pack is really quick up to 95% with that eltek psu. lets say 20-25min
and if i want 84v, i have another HOUR till ->I<- switch of the PSU to end the charge.
did the adaptto charging "mode" end by himself? or does it "cycle" between balance and charge all the time?
Allex
100 MW
Hyperion does gradually lower the amps and then stops and balance it.
my adaptto does charge a small pack so I only have 9A charge current.
When it gets closer to full it reduces the curent to 8,7,6,5 and down to 0-0,5 then it stays there about when topping of the last. Maybe your lipo drops the voltage by a lot when it stops the charge and that is why it starts with such high power again?
Adaptto cannot fully stop the charge, this is because the PSU(eltek, eaton, cherokee and others) continues to push unlike regular chargers where they switch off.
my adaptto does charge a small pack so I only have 9A charge current.
When it gets closer to full it reduces the curent to 8,7,6,5 and down to 0-0,5 then it stays there about when topping of the last. Maybe your lipo drops the voltage by a lot when it stops the charge and that is why it starts with such high power again?
Adaptto cannot fully stop the charge, this is because the PSU(eltek, eaton, cherokee and others) continues to push unlike regular chargers where they switch off.
GmagNeato
100 W
@Brum might have an issue with channel 1 cell. Could be going up in voltage quickly due to reduced capacity. Then when the charge current stops it comes down quickly to meet the others due to high self discharge. May want to check the internal resistance and overall health on that one. Is it in an older pack?
Also wanted to say that with firmware 9G2 my BMS continues to balance after the charger has completely charged the battery and I've unplugged the charger from the wall. I'm assuming it will do so until the top cell reaches the BMS balance voltage I've got set? Nice that it just quietly continues to balance until I go for a ride and bring the voltage down. I've left it this way for about 2 hours now and the delta has gone from .021 to .018. I hope this function hasn't changed on 9G4 which I'll be flashing to once my SD card arrives tomorrow.
Also wanted to say that with firmware 9G2 my BMS continues to balance after the charger has completely charged the battery and I've unplugged the charger from the wall. I'm assuming it will do so until the top cell reaches the BMS balance voltage I've got set? Nice that it just quietly continues to balance until I go for a ride and bring the voltage down. I've left it this way for about 2 hours now and the delta has gone from .021 to .018. I hope this function hasn't changed on 9G4 which I'll be flashing to once my SD card arrives tomorrow.
Merlin said:
if you set balancing voltage to lets say 4,00V, it only means the BMS will START to eneable the balancing at this voltage, but it should not bleed the cells down to 4,00V
the lower the value, the sooner the pack will be equalized.
RC chargers normally do balancing from the beginning on.
GmagNeato said:
Thanks for the heads up, the cells are actually pretty new, so i will keep an eye on things.
What do you mean when you mention 'delta' , is this a term for the cell voltage difference or is it a measurement for something else that i can find in my adaptto display?
GmagNeato
100 W
brumbrum said:
A bad cell may not be the case at all, but it might exhibit that behavior if it were. Def good to keep a close watch on it.
Yes, delta is referring to the difference between the maximum and minimum cell voltages. This measurement is shown on the BMS graphic display screen on the left between the highest and lowest cell voltages. Another useful tool for checking this as well as individual cell voltages is in the BMS Setup menu. If you are on the BMS graphic display screen and press down, you can then select BMS Setup and then Battery Monitor at the bottom. It shows the individual voltages for each cell in their respective bank, and at the bottom it displays the delta first, then highest and lowest cell voltages in greater detail. I've been watching this and it's a good way to see what the cells are doing.
So I've left my bike to balance today with the charger completely removed. BMS is still working and delta has gone down so far to .013!
This is from .021 to .013 over a period of maybe 5 hours. Whereas in the past with my charger plugged in all night long, which I've done 3 or 4 times now, there has been almost NO change in the delta when I check it the next morning, even though it reached the balancing threshold and the BMS is functioning before I even go to bed. The best I've seen doing it this way is about .019v delta. This is confirmation to me that the charger is impeding the balancing process, at least in my case. So from now on I will be using the charger to get it up to 100%, and then removing it and letting it balance overnight. This is actually a much better method IMPO anyway, as the charger doesn't continue to stay plugged in and running all night.I believe that these small discrepancies in voltage change are more to do with inaccuracies and poor quality in the balance tap leads. I dont have much trust in them since after a few years of charging using a RC balance charger where the charger would mess me around due to bad connection or even temperature change, and it was always the balance leads that needed unplugging and replugging to fix the issue or error message.
madin88 said:
hmm,
all my RC Chargers have the option where to start balancing.
default out of the box a junsi 4010 starts at 4,0v with balancing.
i have understand and tested, if i setup balance voltage to 4.0 in the adaptto bms, it starts on 4.0v
BUT
it DOES bleed the cells down to that set voltage.
if all cells are well balanced and your balance voltage is for example 4.0v (80v)
and you setup charger to 84v
the charging process pushes full Power up to 84v
the bms starts at 80v to bleed the cells to 4.0.
for sure charging is stronger....so as you mentioned it is not that accuracy measuring from the bms in a "perfect example" lets say all 20 cells are in real 0,000v complete even.
BMS will bleed down to 4.0v (in a week maybe and 100°c hot bms
)so bms itself doesnt "communicate" with controller, it just powered on by the controller and you can setup on your display what balance voltage do you want.
its more an equalizing and not balancing like rc charger do.
beside longer cycle life facts....
if you want a 4.20v balanced pack, you have to overcharge minimum 4.21v
OR charging current have to be very low that the bms bleeds minimum with same current.
if the gap is to big between charge(end) voltage and balance voltage.
bms will need alot of time(days) + getting really hot. example: 84v charging voltage, 4.0v balance voltage
and here it looks like again for me that i have to go your way with setting balancing higher as charge voltage and using this bms only as a safety feature.
atm these are only tests with my 80mΩ lipos in a 3P config.
will check this out with my 28mΩ lipos in 6P config.
maybe it will less overshoot as allex mentioned.
mir first tests at 200battery amps was with only one circuit breaker.
i'll ask oleg if one will be ok because manual said using 2.
maybe his answer is interessting for your max-e guys:
Hello,
it is absolutely right, one circuit breaker is sufficient.
However we faced an increasing number of controller failures because of faulty or incorrectly operating breakers recently.
Considering this it is worth installing two circuit breakers (of different brands if possible) in order to ensure more protection.
Best regards,
and if you go with 2, use them in series, not parallel
i'll ask oleg if one will be ok because manual said using 2.
maybe his answer is interessting for your max-e guys:
Hello,
it is absolutely right, one circuit breaker is sufficient.
However we faced an increasing number of controller failures because of faulty or incorrectly operating breakers recently.
Considering this it is worth installing two circuit breakers (of different brands if possible) in order to ensure more protection.
Best regards,
and if you go with 2, use them in series, not parallel
Merlin said:Hello,
it is absolutely right, one circuit breaker is sufficient.
NO NO NO
if you use one C63 breaker at 200A, it could be that it takes 1min or only 10sec until it breakes the connection
(they work with a bimetal cut off)
However we faced an increasing number of controller failures because of faulty or incorrectly operating breakers recently.
Considering this it is worth installing two circuit breakers (of different brands if possible) in order to ensure more protection.
Best regards,
and if you go with 2, use them in series, not parallel
How often did i say it's better do use a normal fuse instead of those house breakers and safe the money??
now we hear the controller could get damaged if the circuit breaker cut off when overloaded, which would stand to reason:
if the controller suddenly loses the connection to the battery at very high load, there will occur large voltage spikes because of the inductance and the FET's could blow.
Merlin said:
i never did balancing for a longer time because my batteries simply had no noteworthy drift by now, but if you say the adaptto bms will bleed all groups down to the set voltage, i believe you.
But in my opinion this is bullshit and makes absolutely no sense.
the bleeding should stop if all cells are lets say equalized within +-10mV
Well damned if i know how this balancing business works.
Today i left my pack to balance down. Top cell 3.900v which was maximum cell setting, bottom cell was 3.840 with balance setting at 3.840. After about 8 hours not only had the top cell come down but so had the bottom cell, and the bottom cell was lower than the balance setting at 3.835 ,, :? I just cant figure it out
Today i left my pack to balance down. Top cell 3.900v which was maximum cell setting, bottom cell was 3.840 with balance setting at 3.840. After about 8 hours not only had the top cell come down but so had the bottom cell, and the bottom cell was lower than the balance setting at 3.835 ,, :? I just cant figure it out
Allex
100 MW
This usualy means that your buttom cell is most probably dud, it does self discharge even when you do not put any load on it. Also it does self discharge faster than BMS can even out the rest of the cells.
You can also connect this cell to another board on the BMS just to make sure that the BMS itself is not a culpit.
You can also connect this cell to another board on the BMS just to make sure that the BMS itself is not a culpit.
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