Advice for a recumbent build - please

[chooks42]

I bought recumbent trike 2nd hand in the mid 2000’s, and I loved it so much. I’m now 54, and want to set it up for the next half of my life. I live in Australia.

As it is now:

• Greenspeed X5 folder.
• 16” Wheels.
• Cyclone 500w motor from china (10 years old), set up as a mid drive underneath the seat (large gold chain). Apparently the specs are: motor is 80kv, gear ratio 9.33:1. 8 poles.
• Cyclone Controller (i think)
• Nuvinci 360 rear hub
• It has 3 ring gears - 52/42/30 (on first count) on the BB (hence the jockey wheel cage setup that I built near the motor- and also because the trike is a folder, I need that flexibility from the front chain)
• Gator Brakes

Pictures enclosed. (dusty from lack of use)

Obviously tech has increased hugely in this space. I need some advice. I’m very flexible and happy to throw money at it.

I chose this initial drivetrain setup because:

1. Less stress on the full chain on a BB motor
2. Cleaner to have motor underneath the seat, and there is room
3. As its a 16” i don’t want the normal cassette derailer systems - its too close to the ground.
4. I prefer mid motors and the gearing on the hub rather than hub motor - but am open to other suggestions

I never had this setup going properly, due to the business that I ran that ran me - if you know what I mean!, but in the testing it worked well - not quite enough top end gearing though. I changed the outer one way sprocket on the motor to the smallest possible - still not quite enough.

This is what I’m looking for:

1. Pedalec with torque sensor
2. Ok with Top Speed of around 40-50 km/hr. Any more on this, and it's uncomfortable.
3. Good computer
4. Brake sensors
5. 500-1500 watt motor
6. Light as possible
7. Don’t need as many gears as without the motor
8. I’m not attached to the Nuvinci
9. Less wires the better

Would love:

1. Electronic shifting
2. Prefer hub gearbox at this stage, though recognise that tech is getting better with hub motors
3. Am loving the gearbox /motor units that are on the horizon (Intradrive etc). Not available yet, I believe
4. Reverse gear
5. Walking mode or starting with torque settings like the CYC motors
6. DC- DC converter (to run lights etc on system battery)
7. A rear belt drive (with the required frame modification). Anyone tried this?
8. To add fairings one day.
9. Potentially add solar panels for long distance touring

Use:

1. Daily ride
2. To do some longer camping trips / touring

Questions:

1. Would a BB motor and large chain handle the length of a recumbent chain?
   1. If so, then a BB motor (like CYC?)
2. gears
   1. Is there a gearbox available that I could use in the place of the mid motor?
   2. Nuvinci probably doesn't have the ability to handle the power?
   3. rohloff? (don’t really need 18 gears???)
   4. Other internal hub gearbox
   5. Motor / gearboxes like Intradrive - they seem awesome - not available yet but Any comments?
3. Chainwheel
   1. Mountain drive?
   2. Modify it to a 2 or single chain wheel?
4. Have hub motors increased in quality to make them an option? Which one?
5. FreeGen from GRiN looks amazing! Would that work in any setup?
6. The Gator brakes.
   1. They have never been good and they look to be out of business.
   2. Can I still buy pads for them?
   3. Or should I look at replacing the brake calipers? Suggestions?
   4. Or hub brakes?
7. Should I abandon this project, sell it and buy a newer recumbent that's more suited to what I like. Greenspeed was the ‘rolls royce’ of recumbents. I’m obviously happy to spend some coin on this and am a mechanic so can do the work.

There is a lot in this - Thanks in advance.

 

[offGridDownUnder]

Hello. Check out the trike in my sig. I'm working on the final build for the motor mount now.

 

[chooks42]

I can’t see the signature on the mobile.

 

[offGridDownUnder]

Here:

Greenspeed Magnum Big Wheel with 'stoke monkey' motor and Gates Belt drive

There's more to do, but this works well now.

endless-sphere.com

 

[offGridDownUnder]

Also, for many mobile browsers, there is a menu option to show the desktop version of a web page. That might be useful some times.

 

[neptronix]

I think 16 inch wheels and no suspension could be rickety at high speeds so i'd design for lower speeds for sure.

If i could build this up, i'd use a small direct drive motor. This would cut mechanical complexity, mechanical efficiency losses, and be close to the same weight as before.

I would not recommend running a geared hubmotor on this bike as they're designed for much larger wheels and tend to be inefficient with really small wheels.

The grin all axle motor does good in this condition, you need to supply a lot of voltage and run the fast winding. You could go cheaper and get a 27mm 9C clone motor but it would be 3-4lbs heavier and require torque arms, which complicate changing a flat tire in the field.



& if you want to hot rod it, this motor will take more amps and lay down some serious torque.. you have a massive torque advantage with that 16" wheel that will shine.

 

[chooks42]

I think 16 inch wheels and no suspension could be rickety at high speeds so i'd design for lower speeds for sure.

If i could build this up, i'd use a small direct drive motor. This would cut mechanical complexity, mechanical efficiency losses, and be close to the same weight as before.

I would not recommend running a geared hubmotor on this bike as they're designed for much larger wheels and tend to be inefficient with really small wheels.

The grin all axle motor does good in this condition, you need to supply a lot of voltage and run the fast winding. You could go cheaper and get a 27mm 9C clone motor but it would be 3-4lbs heavier and require torque arms, which complicate changing a flat tire in the field.

View attachment 360080

& if you want to hot rod it, this motor will take more amps and lay down some serious torque.. you have a massive torque advantage with that 16" wheel that will shine.

View attachment 360082

Thanks so much for your help. So a direct drive hub motor. What would you suggest for a transmission?

 

[neptronix]

A direct drive hub motor doesn't need a transmission

 

[chooks42]

Thanks so much for your help. So a direct drive hub motor. What would you suggest for a transmission?

WOW. That second controller pumps! Where do you source those controllers? Doesn’t look like a Grin one?

 

[chooks42]

A direct drive hub motor doesn't need a transmission

Oh ok! Enough power from 0-45km. Nice. Would you go the CA3?

 

[chooks42]

A direct drive hub motor doesn't need a transmission

To clarify- why then does the motor fit a normal cassette? What gearing would I be looking for the front and rear gear?.

 

[neptronix]

Those controllers are old infineons. Today i'd be using a VESC or a phaserunner depending on the application.
I don't like the CAv3 because it is a piggy back controller & this can introduce latency and other artifacts that i'm intolerant of.

To clarify- why then does the motor fit a normal cassette? What gearing would I be looking for the front and rear gear?.

I don't understand this question.
Hub motors for rear wheels can take a freewheel or cassette.

I have no idea what your bike looks like btw. When you say transmission, i wonder if you're talking about the bike's chain + gears?

 

[offGridDownUnder]

hy then does the motor fit a normal cassette?

'transmission' is between the motor and the ground. A hub motor is the hub of the wheel, and it's a motor. The part that attaches to the bicycle does not turn (just like any bike wheel, the axle does not turn, is fixed) and the outside of the hub attaches to the spokes, then to the rim, then to the tire, then to the ground.

A 'hub motor' is just like any bicycle hub, but bigger so there is also room for a motor inside. Sometimes there is also a fixed gear reduction (small electric motors like to turn fast), and in a few rare examples, there is a motor and a changeable gear set inside.

All inside the hub of the wheel, and then spokes, a rim, and a tire on the outside touching the ground. For a hub motor, that is all that is between the motor and the ground. The 'gears' (sprockets, actually) on the bicycle/tricycle are the transmission for your legs, but not for the motor.

The cassette is for the same purpose as any bicycle - to match your pedaling to the turning of the wheel. High cadence (pedaling rpm) in a 'low gear' going up hill while the bicycle is slow, perhaps the same cadence in a 'high gear' when going down hill fast.

If the motor grossly overpowers what your legs can do, pedal as you like. If the motor power is closer to what you can do (about 250 watts for a fit amateur) then your legs will contribute more, and the motor just helps. In that case, you want to set your 'gears' (actually ratio between pedal and cassette sprockets) to let you pedal at a cadence you like, so you can contribute more without tiring as easily.

 

[chooks42]

Those controllers are old infineons. Today i'd be using a VESC or a phaserunner depending on the application.
I don't like the CAv3 because it is a piggy back controller & this can introduce latency and other artifacts that i'm intolerant of.



I don't understand this question.
Hub motors for rear wheels can take a freewheel or cassette.

I have no idea what your bike looks like btw. When you say transmission, i wonder if you're talking about the bike's chain + gears?

Thanks. So. The phase runners can use the CA3-WP display, which, please confirm, gives a display but allows the phaserunner to control the motor.
Any tips on the phaserunner or VESC?. The second graph that you gave me was impressive power, but in reality the range is not enough.
Yes, I was using the word 'transmission' as interchangeable with the chain and gears. I'm trying to keep away from the cassette system; as its too close to the ground, but I'm assuming that, as I don't want a throttle - not legal here - that I will need some gears for peddling. Any ideas?

 

[chooks42]

'transmission' is between the motor and the ground. A hub motor is the hub of the wheel, and it's a motor. The part that attaches to the bicycle does not turn (just like any bike wheel, the axle does not turn, is fixed) and the outside of the hub attaches to the spokes, then to the rim, then to the tire, then to the ground.

A 'hub motor' is just like any bicycle hub, but bigger so there is also room for a motor inside. Sometimes there is also a fixed gear reduction (small electric motors like to turn fast), and in a few rare examples, there is a motor and a changeable gear set inside.

All inside the hub of the wheel, and then spokes, a rim, and a tire on the outside touching the ground. For a hub motor, that is all that is between the motor and the ground. The 'gears' (sprockets, actually) on the bicycle/tricycle are the transmission for your legs, but not for the motor.

The cassette is for the same purpose as any bicycle - to match your pedaling to the turning of the wheel. High cadence (pedaling rpm) in a 'low gear' going up hill while the bicycle is slow, perhaps the same cadence in a 'high gear' when going down hill fast.

If the motor grossly overpowers what your legs can do, pedal as you like. If the motor power is closer to what you can do (about 250 watts for a fit amateur) then your legs will contribute more, and the motor just helps. In that case, you want to set your 'gears' (actually ratio between pedal and cassette sprockets) to let you pedal at a cadence you like, so you can contribute more without tiring as easily.

Ah. Ok. I used the word 'transmission' for any changeable gear reduction. And I was thinking for my legs. If I was to go for a wheel hub, I'm trying to move away from a cassette, as it's very low to the ground, being a 16" wheel, I wonder if I have any other options?