An introduction + Finding a motor with Torque

[mpease]

Well fribberty gibbits!!! dogman I am sure glad this came out before I bought the Meridian. Neither the listing at Canadian Tire, nor the pdf Manual that I downloaded mentioned capacity, so I asked on the CT website whether it would hold my weight, and their reply was that it is a “Heavy Duty” trike and 325 pounds should pose no problem. Your real world experience would seem to contradict that assurance.

I guess it's back to Belize. They have an "Industrial" trike that they rate at 450 pounds capacity. It has 24" wheels and uses 11 gauge spokes on heavy duty rims. At $699 it's not unreasonable, just expensive for me. This was what I had looked at initially, until my inquiry at CT, when I started thinking I could do this sooner and have a lower initial outlay.



I did contact cell-man and he has a front T12 kit that with an upgraded controller might do the job. Again more than I wanted to spend, but what can I do. I can put together a half-assed e-bike and end up with a frustrating experience and a piece of junk, or I can save up a little longer and have more fun and a decent e-trike. I know that even with this, I'm going to have to add a hill-climber something like ddk's (or maybe Jeff Peterson's) in order to go everywhere I'd like. Here's a topo map of the area for interest's sake.



Punx0r, my level of knowledge, lateral thinking and mechanical/electrical ability puts me at the competent DIY'er stage, however I have little strength or endurance for physical activity since my lungs crapped out. That said, I have some pretty good friends who would help me when they can, so most stuff is do-able if not immediate, and I don't give up that easily. I am dertainly going to go the hub-kit route initially because it will get me into the madness that is e-biking more easily and quickly, but the terrain here will require extraordinary measures to subdue.

otherdoc I've seen that one and it looks like a good one, but quite outside of my budget, esp with shipping. I'm also a bit unsure about recumbants as I have never had the privelege of trying one to see what they're like. I might not be able to see over my gut!!, but thanks for the input, it's appreciated.

Can anyone tell me how to make use of the performance charts to help choose a wheel size? They show the torque in nm in relation to amperage and rpm for the motor, but how is that applied when it comes to wheel size?

Anyway it looks like I'll have more time to find out now.

 

[Sancho's Horse]

Hey, sorry came off wrong. The "copy as best you can", just meant accomodating for whatever bike you choose. The other parts I stand by. I know COPD. How many other parts of your life do you do differently because of it? Most, I am guessing. I just had a breakdown in the rural hills of Canada, no cellphone signal (ohh no! the hills got me bars again), COPD nightmare scenario running through my mind. So...in my mind, putting the difficulty of fab at the home front (where you can sip beverages and say to hell with it, til tomorrow) would be better than difficulty of blown fet, burnt motor, too small of a battery after your motor/controller/trike choices and... all this discovered on the road. It would be a solid option for your price level, the hills, give you more money for battery, and be more reliable (people do screw it up rarely, but...hey, I am assuming you wouldn't or I wouldn't suggest it).

I like that frame choice though. Looks beefy. I would put the beef in the frame and the battery, and if you want to beef up to a super hubbie and other various bells and whistles, do that later when the funds roll in IMHO. A few weeks of fab, or a few days depends...definitely not a plug and play option, but that better battery is definitely worth it (or better tires would be good).

Hey, just throwing it out there. Besides, I live with my mother-in-law from China for six months out of the year, so, you should consider yourself lucky. She doesn't speak English, but sometimes pushing people's buttons is a universal language. I think quasi insulting your fab skills was the nicest thing I did all day .

Oh yeah, do they have Amish in your part of the world? There is some sort of an event horizon for trikes and amish communities. According to a guy I know who does all of the factory auctions, they buy all of the old worksmans from every factory auction he has given. Usually less than $100 per trike. In ours it was something like $65 per trike. They might be a source, cause $200 would still be a pretty good profit for them.

 

[mpease]

Sancho's not to worry, I didn't take it that way. The crack about my puny mind was not in reaction to your comments, but a general statement of frustration with an aging and oxygen starved brain. I appreciate the info and the link to Jeff Peterson's build thread. It will help me clarify some things as well as find possible sources for materials and parts. I haven't done anything bike related since I was a kid so the more information and ideas I get from the more experienced people here the better. The later explanation of my (probably over-estimated) place in the DIY ladder was for Punx0r, who asked.

The COPD rules out a lot of activity for me as I have only about 30% capacity left and that leaves me with very little physical stamina. I can't count the number of times I've set out to do a job around the house and by the time I gather tools and materials I'm done in. Completely.

I don't know of any Amish community nearby. Nor do I often see a bike, much less a trike around here. The truth is, that to find a deal in these parts one needs be "out there" meeting lots of people in the flesh and learning your way around the area. Having an electric trike would definitely get me out there but that's after the fact. By temperament I am a bit of a loner and would rather surf the net than schmooz. Speaking of which, I think I'll do a little research on the MAC T10/T12 and read over what cell-man sent me until I have a glimmer of understanding. Ta

 

[dogman dan]

Let's back up just a bit here.

What I was really trying to say was that the back wheels on the meridian is the weak point. Once you get some better rims on one, it should handle your weight fine. The stock rims will handle your weight for quite some time as long as you don't ride over chuckholes at 20 mph.

I just wanted you to know what to expect from the meridian. The frame itself is quite strong. We did bend an axle on one at work, but we weigh about 200, then put up to 100 pounds in the basket. The condos streets have big speed bumps, so we bent the axle riding over the speed bumps with a basket full of heavy tools and garden soil. One got tapped by a car when it was parked, and it was the one that got the bent axle later.

I think the meridian, or the Izip, or any of the cheaper trikes will take your weight, they just need to not be abused by hitting big bumps at speed, and will need a rear wheel upgrade. The frames are strong enough IMO. Eventually you could bend an axle, but I doubt it will happen right away.

The trike you choose isn't your real problem, the real problem is that you will never be able to afford the kind of battery it will take to drive 350 pounds up hills for very far. Range is going to cost $$, because you won't be riding aroung getting 25 watthours per mile. more like 60wh/mile. So a small affordable RC lipo pack will only get you about 3-4 miles of range.

Will that be enough?

 

[Punx0r]

Whatever the case, RC lipo has to the battery of choice here. Greatest capacity per dollar and easily expandable at a later date, hence lost up-front cost.

At least your speed requirements are modest, so hopefully one of the geared-hubmotor will be able to recommend something capable of handling the hills. If you wanted hill-climbing and high speed you'd need a monster motor...

 

[dogman dan]

Re reading, the question about the small wheel. It won't have more torque, but it will be torque geared lower. So the motor won't fry turning too slow going up the hills. That's why I was saying the 26" wheel on the meridan is not ideal.

I just got to thinking about something. You can get trike kits, that basicly turn a bike into a trike. 20" bmx bike, with a trike kit? Something to consider. Small wheels are strong too.

 

[mpease]

dogman, you raised some valid points. I am your two hundred pound rider with 125 pounds of cargo every minute of every ride - a bent rim looking for a place to happen. The vague assurance from CT allowed me to continue looking at that, but I was still a little uneasy. I just needed to “hear” some real life experience. Don’t forget that a major part of my situation is my inability to breathe, not my weight only. If a wheel bends very far (or downhill) from home, I'm screwed. I can't walk far, wouldn't be able to push a damaged bike and don't have a cell phone as they only ever work part time here. If both wheels got replaced over time, and I'm sure they would given our divot filled roads, I'd end up paying about the same price and still have something less well suited to my needs. So the Industrial trike is the better bet.

With the Tri-Rider Industrial, I get a heavier hi-ten steel frame, thicker axle, coaster brake, heavy rims/spokes, a cushier seat, and I'll even be able to carry a little cargo if need be. I hate to under-buy, but do it far too often and end up spending more that way.

As to the batteries, I should be able to get 4 5S packs for 10Ah @ 36v. (haven’t checked the shipping cost yet though) I’m not likely to go more than 3 or 4 miles initially anyway, even that will wear me out, and in a couple of months, if all goes well, I should be able to get more. I might also sell my old ‘91 Jetta diesel for scrap and get more batteries right away. I had planned to use the jetta for an HHO experiment because it’s the last year before VW added a computer, but the COPD changed that. The car has been sitting in the yard for 3 years unused and decaying away. It ought to be worth a few battery packs.

There is also the fact that for every up-hill there is a downhill with 0 W/km. so I might eek out another mile or so there. I could get to the store or post office, etc (about a mile) for virtually no watts, but the motor would work hard coming home and that hill is probably less than 10%. It’s too bad the MAC didn’t have regen.

Mark

 

[mpease]

Punx0r, I totally agree about the Lipo being the most cost effective battery available. They may take a bit more fiddling, but that is fine with me. I like to know what's going on in any case. I guess part of me would like to have a monster motor and blow the wheels off the gas quad bikes, but that isn't going to happen.

dogman I've looked at the Higley Metals kit for around $400 landed. It is the best quality/price point I have found. Utah trikes has one for around $600 + shipping for use with a Terra Trike (I've looked at the TT Rover too). The kits I've seen on ebay.ca have the aura of cheap to go with the price.

I've sent a few more questions to cell-man to see if he can put a 12T in a front hub, his quote was for a 10T but he did not specify front kit.

Even if wheel size doesn't change the torque, it does affect how it's applied, so there must be some sort of formula to calcuate the relative power where the tire meets road. Since I have no experience to get a feel for this sort of thing, I need calculations to help inform my choices. At this point I don't have the right questions to find those calculations.

Mark

 

[mark5]

Even if wheel size doesn't change the torque, it does affect how it's applied, so there must be some sort of formula to calcuate the relative power where the tire meets road. Since I have no experience to get a feel for this sort of thing, I need calculations to help inform my choices. At this point I don't have the right questions to find those calculations.

Not calculations if you wanted strictly that but as a way to visualize--have you tried the ebikes.ca simulator: http://ebike.ca/simulator/

Try comparing System A vs System B, BMC V2 Trq motor should be close to Cellman's Mac motor, and different wheel sizes to see torque curves.

 

[Sancho's Horse]

Ok, I spoke with a guy from Maynards auctions. They do most of the auctions around the northeast U.S., Canada, well most everywhere they have time for really. The Amish guy is out of Pennsylvania. This guy eats up every large inventory of Worksman trikes out there. I will see if I can get ahold of him, he is a pretty connected dude, by any standard. However, smallish numbers of trikes he won't necessarily come out for. It just depends if the metal guy is there, they may work together, don't know for sure. Anyways, the site is:

http://www.maynards.com/home/

The trike you are looking at is pretty good, but if you get a used worksman, it will likely be as good or better and cheaper. They usually give a pretty good idea what is being auctioned at each site, but sometimes small stuff like a trike just doesn't make it over the miscellaneous category. You may give a call. A lot of their auctions happen online, so you could do it from home. If it is online, they give a listing of everything. I spoke with an old coworker, and they said the trikes went for more like $35 a piece. Not sure, but I remember it was dirt cheap, but they sold the whole lot 100+. The amish would rather pay more for some things and kill off the will of their competition early. But being online may be better. However, you need to check if the tires are solid or not. Solid tires are common in factories and have no real place in the bumpy world (unless, I suppose you have killer suspension). That alone would require $250+ to replace if you went with solid magnesium, 20" kevlar tires, but you would get a drum brake, and some seriously rugged wheels.

IT is all luck of the draw. I see they have a GM auction that has been postponed. Good one to look at. If scouring is your thing, this might help. If you can score the trike at auction price, brushed gear reduction motor/controller, and heavy on battery... $1000 is doable, but otherwise you better consider the layaway option.

One thing is, all this stuff can and usually does take longer than you expect, so sometimes piecing it together ain't so bad. By the time you finish wrestling with one part, you can afford the next. And you can get what you actually want, instead of some compromise.

Edit: Nix the Maynards, I searched, did not find one. If it happens, going to need a call and description fo circumstances. They prefer to sell them to the Amish guy, because who has time for a bunch of old trikes? I knew there was one guy. I think it is this Peachey guy who is sucking up all the trikes. He motorizes them. http://amishamerica.com/taste-of-pinecraft-5-book-giveaway-and-interview-with-author-sherry-gore/ If you sniff around you can probably find the guy. They are pretty shrewd businessmen though. Oh well.

 

[mpease]

mark5, I haven't been to the simulator for a while and I see they had added a few motors since then. I tried what you suggested using the BMC V2 torque model, the 36v 14Ah li-ion battery, and the 25A controller a 10% grade and changed the wheel size in successive simulations. I got surprisingly good results. The 20" was the fastest at 14.5 kph, then the 24 at 13.0 and 26' at 12.8. Next I tried a couple of DD hubs and got the results that kind of discouraged me a few months ago, i.e. The Golden 500W on 20" got 3.4 kph and for the 26" the line was to the left of 0. Goin' backwards on WOT! The biggest surprise was how much difference a 35A controller made. 20" got 17.7 kph and the 24" got 19.0 kph, actually faster! I think (hope) I'm getting a better handle on this stuff now. I do have to keep in mind that a trike + me at around 175 Kg won't get as good performance as a MTB at 150kg. Using the 200kg setting @35A dropped me down to 12.7 on the 24" wheel so I can hope for better than that.

Also I don't know how close the BMC is to the 10T or 12T MAC, so I'd still like a formula.

Sancho's Horse, Did your name come from the book somehow? Anyway I am really not much of a scrounger, wheeler dealer, however you want to say it. I used to be, when I was younger and healthier, but to tell the truth, I just don't have the energy or inclination anymore. I appreciate your efforts though and it makes sense to do some online sniffing to see what's there.

 

[dogman dan]

Those sim results show why your driving wheel needs to be as small as possible. Another reason why the meridian and other 26" wheel trikes are not your first choice.

It could be possible to get a fork that would allow a 20" wheel to be used, or even have one made from scratch by a good welder. But keep looking for a trike, used on the cheap if possible, with a smaller wheel for sure. You definitely see why you need a very slow winding too, those sims show how poorly a fast winding 26" hubmotor does on a hill, unless given 5000w or something.

I still like the idea of finding something in a chain drive trike, then lowering the gear ratio, then adding a front hub later. What you need to do is really not hubmotor territory. It's too bad the 9c 2812 isnt avalialbe from methods anymore. I climb 15% easily without pedaling with one, but many pounds lighter of course. But the 2810 in 20" wheel IS avaliable in ebikekits trike kit!!!!!

I can relate some to the copd. I have chronic post viral fatique after a bout with west nile virus last year. I don't have the strength to ride an ebike to work anymore, and only ride short distances now. If I break down and have to pedal, I'm not far from being as screwed as you would be. I will make it home, but then pay the price for it for about 72 hours afterwards.

My employer has been very understanding so far, but they are about to get rid of me if I fail to get better soon.

Back to reliablility. If you are going to go hubmotor, the most reliable would be a dd motor like the ebikekit trike kit, then use a controller that has both sensored and sensorless operation. That way if you blow a hall sensor from running a hot motor, you still ride home in sensorless mode.

A 2810, in 20" wheel, with 48v 40 amps is going to climb a lot. You'd still of course have to avoid certain roads if at all possible, and go the long way if it's less steep. One thing about the dd's is that you can get away with a bit more overwatting them, for short periods at least. Expect to spend some time cooling off any hubmotor you choose. BTW, a dd motor will help you descend those hills slower. A gearmotor will let you build up a much faster speed coasting down those hills. Dd can get you regen braking too, which could be very helpfull on those decents.

Unfortunately, I keep talking about shit that is bound to cost more than a thou. What you need to find is a broken down chain drive trike for dirt cheap. Then a new motor or new controller and some big gear sprockets would not eat up that much budget.

 

[mpease]

Life intrudes once more.

I went to Home Hardware to see if they could order the Belize Industrial trike if I wanted it. Once before one of the senior staff stated that if their supplier had it they could order it, even if it wasn’t on the HH web site. The person I dealt with before wasn’t in, so… an almost wasted trip. Bought candy for the wife’s “stocking” though. WooHoo!

The Belize ia a 24 inch wheel, a slight improvement over the 26, but my real hope is hung on the assumption that the BMC-V2T is on par with the 10T MAC. The 12T delivers 20 to 25 percent more torque, and with a 40A controller it would easily handle a 10% grade. I spent several happy hours today playing with the simulator, and more reading up on the MAC here on ES. I am duly impressed what that little motor will do. As a refresher one might watch the HighTekBikes hill test of a MAC 10T in San Fran

https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=RIHJPOL3_HQ

dogman, feel free to suggest anything you like. While I am still budget limited, it doesn’t hurt to mull different options over, and one might just strike a chord, or I might win a lottery!!!! or grow wings or something.

As to a chain drive trike, that isn’t ruled out for later, but I want to begin with something that doesn’t involve too much physical labour. I don’t even have the trike yet, so I don’t want to base complicated plans on something I haven’t seen even a decent photo of. What ddk has done (and documented so well) on his tri-rider could help me greatly, but the Industrial trike frame and drive train are quite different from his, so the first thing I have to do is get the trike, or a trike as I’m not 100% set on that one.

- - - - - - - You might want to skip the pity party - - - - - -
Purchasing a trike at a distance, sight unseen, isn’t an option I want to persue and there are none close by. Without an agent who knows what I want/need on site, it’s too risky. I can’t afford to buy someone else’s trash and ship it too. Even going to Halifax, the nearest city in NS, is a 3 hour drive and an all day trip for 2 people. I also have eye trouble and can’t drive that long, and with meals, it would run close to $80. I know that most people don’t seem to factor that kind of expense in, nor do they count taxes or sometimes the shipping. I’m sorry for the drama, but I just do not have the luxury of telling myself it doesn’t count. That said, I do look when I travel for medical appointments, but nothing yet.
- - - - - - - O. K. it’s safe - - - - - - - -

In any event, I feel safest purchasing a new trike for my first build and that limits the field. I have opened a dialog with Jason at ebikekits, He answered the frist round quickly, but the second round was sent in after the office closed, so I’m waiting to hear what he has to say. At this point I am still leaning toward the MAC.

I’m sorry to hear of your experience with the west nile, dogman. For me the fatigue strikes quickly but fades fairly quickly as well. It may be a few hours before I can do much, but three days is a long long time to wait for recovery.

The MAC appears to be able to handle about 1500 watts from what I’ve seen here, I would consider 36V 30A, or even 40A. I have questions in to Paul about his reccommendations, but price is a factor, as always.

Considering the performance of any DD hub I can afford, and/or afford to power, not having the regen is a risk I’m willing to take. The Belize trike has a V brake in front and a rear coaster brake (and I have the weight to use it). If that’s scary, I’ll lay low and save for a disk brake as the MAC is compatible.

Anyway, despite my nagging negativity, I really do appreciate all that you folks have given me here, not the least of which is acceptance. So, Thank you. (gets hankie, wipes eyes and blows nose) No no, It’s just the bright lights making my eyes water.

TTYAL

 

[dogman dan]

I don't have hard data what a 9c 2810 like the ebikekit trike kit has will do in a 26" wheel with a really heavy rider.

But the data I do have, is for the same motor on a 100 pound frankenbike. 20 amp controller, 48 v 15 ah pingbattery. 180 pound rider. so thats a fairly healthy 280 pounds total, plus plenty of wind resistance.

It climbed 8% with no particular problems at all. so 36v 30 amps oughta do similar for you. Question is, can you get where you need to, climbing only 8-10% grades?

Looking at the topo, I definitely see a few streets you might need to avoid.

I never get tired of showing my longtail, so here it is again.

 

[dogman dan]

The trike kit motor in 20" wheel would rock.

The problem would be getting a longer front fork to make up the difference from the smaller wheel. then a welder could add the brake bosses to your fork, also adding a cross brace to strengthen the fork if needed. So the brakes don't tend to just spread the fork.

A 20" wheel trike would be the ideal of course. I've poked around on the net some, but all I see is weak looking folders in 20" wheel. That's why I thought mabye a trike kit on a BMX bike could work.

Trike kits are $400? Same shit is bolted to the back of a meridan. You'd have to do some custom welding on the rear of a steel bmx frame to use the meridan parts.

I keep having ideas here. What about buy the meridan or whatever. Buy the trike kit 9c motor in 20" Add the brake bosses to have brakes for 20" wheel by hiring a good welder. Relace the rear wheels to 20" as well. Smaller wheels will be strong compared to the meridian 26" wheels. Last step, replace cranks with short bmx cranks if they actually drag the pavement. Not that you'll be pedaling anyway.

Now you have a 20" wheel trike for nearly the cost of a meridian.

 

[Punx0r]

I know you said there aren't many cycles around your way, but do you have a cycle club or even a decent cycle shop within easy driving distance? Just thinking that if your explain your situation and desire for a used trike someone may have a lead. Or even an old-fashioned wanted ad on the board in a local shop, church etc?

Someone must have a trike going spare somewhere...

 

[Sancho's Horse]

Before I forget. Try calling Maynards. They have several auctions going in Canada right now, and they almost always have some worksman trikes somewhere, tell them your story. They try to help people if they can, probably because they are in the going out of business business.

I found out the price I quoted was right on. I also found out that the Amish guy is out of Lancaster, PA, but that pinecroft or whatever is an Amish retirement village type thing in Florida. The metal guy is from around the same area, and they often share moving expenses/space. Both of these guys are worth looking into if you are in the ebike business. The metal guy buys up all of the "remnant" metals from factories all over the eastern U.S.. If you are interested in contacting them, I bet you can google them. Peachey was easy to find, and he will know how to get ahold of the metal guy. I also know that the people at Maynards would know who I am talking about.

Sorry, promise this is the last I will drop in. Just seemed the best place to park this info for posterity.

Good Luck!

 

[mpease]

dogman is the long-tail the aforementioned frankenbike? and is it something you put together yourself? It looks sturdy and well used, LOTS of cargo space. Glad you showed it. I like the woodgrain. ?:^) I once thought of using wood to build a trike or quad, but wasn’t sure I wanted to have the extra weight it would need considering the burdensome weight of the rider. I guess whatever I get will have to be fairly heavy anyway to hold me.

I spent a couple more hours with the simulator running various combinations of 36V 14Ah and 48V 10Ah batteries, 25, 30, 35 & 40 Amps, 20 & 24 inch wheels and grades of 0, 5, 10 & 12%. The constants were BMC-V2T, 200 Kg (440 lb.), WOT, and MTB (it had the highest drag and I have no idea how to estimate drag coefficients). The results were impressive on grades up to 10% and fell off sharply after that. Still they were  better than expected. I suspect the true weight will be down a little while the drag will be higher. The 20" wheel performs better than the 24", but it was the 40A controller that made the biggest difference, followed by the voltage increase and then the 20” wheel.

I will be able to plan routes using an inclinometer to estimate the grades. Some places will not be attainable, but I think I will have enough to get the e-bike grin started. I can get by without travelling on most of the long steep hills,. Also given the fact that on the shorter hills I'd be coming in at speeds above what the simulator shows as sustainable, there shouldn't be a problem (I hope).

So… I'm sighting on the MAC 12T with a 40A controller ($34 more), Will start with a 37V 15Ah lipo pack, which can be reconfigured as a 55.5V 10Ah pack if needed, and I will retain the 24” wheel to circumvent extra costs and work associated with moving to a 20” wheel. Later, in the summer or fall or winter I can put together a rear drive. Apparently ebikekit.com is going to be getting a rear trike motor kit in the spring, details unknown, If that is beyond my means, there’s always a BLDC motor and Magic controller v2 from Gary at GM Canada, or a brushed Unite scooter motor/controller combo

Punx0r - I should probably admit that I don’t get out much. We have a small population that varies depending on the source but the largest number I’ve seen is 835. Even though there are bikes, anyone I’ve talked to about getting an adult trike, here or in nearby towns, just gives me a blank look, including the store where I will probably get it. It may be partly due to shock(imagining me on a bike) and partly that they’re not sure if I’m having them on, but I still end up explaining what I am looking for. There are quite a few places where I suppose I could put up a want ad, including a local buy/sell/trade rag, the mall (said with tongue jammed into cheek), grocery stores, etc. but there's no bike shop. All good ideas though. I personally am not comfortable getting a used bike at this point. It takes far more energy than I have to track a good one down and the distance from here to everywhere and back adds expense quickly. A new one is no guarantee of perfection, but it comes with a warrantee, and ddk has illustrated that Belize will honour theirs.

And Sancho’s Horse has reminded me that though I started the thread, It’s really here for everyone to benefit from and so please don’t stop making suggestions, even though I am close to figuring this out. Even if I resist your suggestions, I appreciate your efforts on behalf of me and others who may benefit from them.

Given that, it is most likely that I will get the Belize Tri-Rider Industrial trike with 24” wheels (I’m sellin’ m’ car Martha!!), The MAC 12T geared hub with a 40A controller, and 6 - 5S1P lipo packs (plus wire, switches, connectors, etc.). Still room for suggestions though.

 

[dogman dan]

12t mac will be a good choice for sure. Low speed so you'll be able to grind up a steeper hill than indicated in the sim for the bmc.

Hope your budget can stand it, but it's about all you can do to get started if you can't find a used and or cheaper rear drive trike. New Mexico is kind of similar to where you are in a way. Low poplulation, so the odd stuff is impossible to find. I see a used adult trike for sale here at most once a decade.

The belize trike looks like it should be better than the schwinn for sure.

Yeah that's the frankenbike. bits of various bikes assembled in a frankenstien manner. I insisted on needing full suspension on my cargo bike, so I had to wait till a full moon and create it. It really turned out well. If you dig for it in pictures, there is a build thread on it. At first I put a slow 2810 9 continent motor on it, and was thinking about doing the dual motor thing. But recently I got a currently unavaliable used crystalyte 5304 motor for it. The 5304 was the "standard" cargo bike motor for a long time. VERY powerfull motor, so now the frankenbike flies up hills. Not efficiently though, It eats batteries like popcorn with the big motor if I give it 100%.

Someday, I want to ride the rocky mountains south to north on that bike, but given the current medical deal, it's just a dream for now.

 

[mpease]

The budget is trashed. I really am going to have to sell my Jetta (probably for scrap) to pay for the trike and motor, about $1300. I just hope that I can scrape together enough baksheesh by April or May to complete it so I can go for a ride now and then.

After that I might keep my eyes open for a good disc compatible rear hub motor to use as a mid drive. All it would really need would be a fixed gear on the left side to connect to the rear axle. Perhaps I could find or design an adapter for both disc and gear (or maybe that's just the drugs kicking in). Using a hub motor like that is the only way I'll get regen without replacing the MAC.

Question: would 12C lipos be up to the job of powering an ebike?

 

[chisixer6]

here is a link to some pics on trike conversions

http://www.gngebike.com/apps/photos/photo?photoid=156812915

 

[mpease]

Well, haven't I had fun!!! Over a week of tonsillitus.

Sorry I didn't reply earlier, but the above turned my brain to mush and I have only just started to return to my usual self. Thanks for the link. I knew I had seen those trikes somewhere before, but couldn't place it. GNG looks like it might be a good supplier for trike kits and other difficult to fit bikes.

This is a massive thread on mid drives and GNG in particular: http://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=28&t=42785 and it looks like a good way to go. I haven't finished the thread yet so read for yourself.

I am going to start out with a MAC motor from cell_man and see where that takes me ...Literally ?:^)

Cheers

BTW, I've ordered the trike!!

 

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I received a PM from kentlim26 and thought it might best be added to the thread in case it might be found useful for someone starting out, so...

kentlim26 said:
hi. ,my input a suggestion for you.

sorry!. my suggestion if your weight is 147kg, My thoughts will be a cyclone kit for you, the Motor cyclone 500watts + huatong 18fets 48v 2000watts ( cost around ) quite really cheap, i forget the price is around SGD60+ , though they might be a china made controller but they are not poor quality. i have been using them since few years ago.
I will not recommend a cyclone controller that is for sure. But their motor I won't say no good, they are not bad.
ok, what is the slowest speed you can get from 48v 2200watts for the cyclone 500watts ? it is 30km/h if the motor is put at 26inch wheel. Lets say you go for a smaller wheel say 20' inch, im sure the troque will be alot more . But im not sure it will work for you. ONE thing I can confirm is that the cyclone torque is indeed powerful. that is why dogman says " chain drive "

i do have hub motor run with different types of cells from 13cells to 23cells, 48v ~ 96v. compare cyclone output for torque is indeed powerful 48v Look like a 60v or even more. Let say the pick up power.
last time the price for cyclone motor was cheaper, but price has been up a lot recently this year.

I wish you all the best for finding a right motor. cyclone do have problem but setting a gearing at rear 32t will reduce stress for the motor to work, so I think it will work for you. dogman has a better experience in ES a very good guy here to help. luckily he is at your thread and giving better suggestion.

have a nice day.

My response

Suggestions are always appreciated kentlim26. You may not be as experienced as some, but you are far more experienced than I. There is so much information and so many choices, that it is difficult to decide what to do.I have bought the trike now, a 24" indistrial single speed, so that is final. I will almost certainly be getting a geared MAC hub from Paul (cell_man) and that is mostly because he took the time to answer my e-mailed questions and because he has a reputation for being fair.

I wanted to start with something easy to get going because my health is so poor. There are a number of roads I can ride with the MAC and I am hoping that my health will get a little better if I am outside riding instead of hunched over a computer all day long as I am now.

I know that I will be adding a second motor at some time in the first year to assist with the steeper, longer hills here, and for this, I am looking at both Cyclone and GNG motors. If one of these can do the whole job alone, then the hub will go on another bike so my wife and I can ride together.

Would you mind if I put your PM and this answer out on the thread? Others may benefit from your knowlege too.

and finally

kentlim26 said:

im okay with my pm out in your thread. i have also read about the GNG motor is a 20amps controller does has a good advantage that can work out with lifepo4 cells. as you might have read most of the lifepo4 cells are rate as 1 - 2 , It will work with lifepo4 but not cyclone controller have been said to draw 50amps output at peak. one thing about 20amps controller is something is also interesting. lower power means can go more further distance, Higher power controller distance is shorter. so km per watt ?? or miles per watt ?? I saw the thread of GNG end up one guy from a Belt type run convert to a chain type. things like converting a belt driven to a chain type , i think is not a simple task for everyone , that is for sure.

I do have lifepo4 cells vpower 48v 20amps, im do worry if they will work properly with cyclone or not. My cyclone controller didn't work out with me, it had blew/ the 24v, 36v and also the 48v type of controller. That is why cyclone came out a New product is kelly + cyclone . I do appreciate cyclone taiwan do have some improvement . cyclone motor can work with many controller, the only i saw it didn't work with is Conhismotor controller., test all the 36 combo phase and wall wires = nil will work with cyclone motor. but greentime usd30 - 50 , the 45amps will work with cyclone. currently my 1st ebike is cyclone motor + huatong controller 48v 2000watts . 2nd one is hub motor conhismotor 48v 1000watts

45amps controller is best to go with lipo cells to what I have read, so alot of people have gone lipos . myself have also shift to join the lipos players ! ha.. One lately thing i have learnt , that battery medic will not work properly with charging and got one guy into trouble. BOMB! I do have bought battery medic , I do abit regret because it cannot do much. It does do very little help to improve the balance. here a famous charger is bC168 which can be found in ebay. Myself use a hobby king charger is cost $22+ it can charge 5cell x 20amps. i balance the cells every time when i do charging, it is very dangerous if cells are not properly balance says one is 3v and the other one is 4v.

wish you the best

I hope this is useful for y'all