Another RG250 with Colossus Motor

I plan to fit it with stand-offs from the front frame running with the 429mm top to bottom. The width (128) should fit between the verticals of the frame.

As for the 1000watt cooling I am not expecting my motor to continuously produce 1Kw of waste heat. It may peak that high... but only for short periods under load at low speed. If needed I am planning to put a temp switch in the water line that will turn on fans if the temp of the water goes above 45 degrees or so.

The main thing I am concerned about is the 60 degree upper limit. I am wondering what the limiting factor is.

Next and hardest thing will be to find appropriate fans for use in the external environment.
 
I was curious about standard motorcycle radiators and how large they were compared to what I was going to implement. Now I know the ICE radiators run at a higher temp and higher pressure and therefore are more efficient (well I presume so) however they are not that big....

For example (one of the few I could find) the Yamaha R6 (600cc sports bike) with a motor producing 75kw has a radiator with the following dimensions
03-04 Radiator core:
W: 320mm
H: 258mm
D: 24mm

Swiftech core for my motor with 30kw odd power:
W: 120mm
H: 360mm
D: ~24mm

So ignoring the depth we have the ICE for a 600cc motorcycle at 825.6 cm squared and the Swiftech at 432 cm squared... a little over half the size. Based on this I think it should work. Note the heat from the 75kw ICE must be MUCH higher than the 30kw electric due to efficiencies. However as I said it all comes down to the 60 degree maximum rating, temp difference to ambient and airflow.
 
markobetti said:
nice comparison Splint. You do have a point there..
Click to expand...
Yeh to cool a 75kw ICE you need to get rid of a lot of heat which most ICE engines struggle to get 25% efficiency and the Collossus at ~16kw has ~95% efficiency! So you are comparing a motor that needs to cool up to 75% of 75kw or something that needs to cool 5% of 30 kw (maybe 10% because at 30 kw collossus might be 90% efficient!) But it wont be cooling 3 kw the whole time because you will only be pushing 30kw for short times! And I bet you will be using less then an avarage of 1/3 of the motors peak power so less then 1000watts!
 
Ok I have been working with toolman2 with the Kelly controller. We have been replicating our previous tests on his smaller motor to confirm the Kelly gives us the same numbers as the Infineon controllers. We have now confirmed that the Kelly has no unexpected losses and the external Timing Adjuster works as well with the Kelly as the smaller controllers.

Yesterday we set the controller into torque mode and measure the phase amps. With a load on the motor we were able to sustain approx 60amps (phase) and by applying more load the motor slowed as the controller maintained the amps not the speed. We then did a stress test with phase 150amps with no problems.

Today we confirmed that regen worked and we could control the rate of regen with the additional pot. Max current on regen was 18amps back into the battery pack. One thing we did not like was that once the regen over volts the battery pack the controller goes into fault condition and you have to cycle the power before it will run again. This seems to be a problem if you were going to rely on the regen for actual braking.

We also confirmed that if the timing is set wrong and at high revs the controller detects the timing error, the Kelly shuts down and correctly shows the fault code. The Infineon shuts down because it blows a MosFET.

So far very happy with the Kelly controller. Next steps run up my big motor and try to cause the controller to detect overheat conditions on both motor and controller. This test will then ensure that not mater the treatment my motor and controller should be protected. Also we will run up the water cooling on the motor and check all our figures.
 
AussieJester said:
SplinterOz said:
... Was right about the Infineon so im 1 for 1 so far LoL...

best of luck

KiM
Click to expand...
Click to expand...

You were... but in a strange way... we actually blew the Infineon by shorting the battery leads AFTER we had disconnected the battery. It seemed to hurt it self by discharging out through those leads. At least if you are right about the radiator it is nowhere near the money down the tube :)
 
Byte thanks for the kind comments. I am trying to find the time to work on this build but work and winter are working against me. Early last week we did do some load testing on the motor and controller which was great.

We were able to apply 270amps for a period of about 5 minutes into the motor turning the load at about 600 - 700 rpm. Measurements showed that that was approx 33Nm of torque. At that stage some of the hot glue holding in the hall sensors started to melt. :)
I have re-glued the sensors with high temp glue and need to put the motor back together. During this test we were not using the water cooling ports.

Rough calculations show that we should be able to 16 - 20 kw continuous out of this motor with NO cooling. This means that we should get around 30kw with cooling :mrgreen:
I should be ready for another test ride once I get the motor together again and retest with and without cooling attached.
 
SplinterOz said:
Byte thanks for the kind comments. I am trying to find the time to work on this build but work and winter are working against me. Early last week we did do some load testing on the motor and controller which was great.

We were able to apply 270amps for a period of about 5 minutes into the motor turning the load at about 600 - 700 rpm. Measurements showed that that was approx 33Nm of torque. At that stage some of the hot glue holding in the hall sensors started to melt. :)
I have re-glued the sensors with high temp glue and need to put the motor back together. During this test we were not using the water cooling ports.

Rough calculations show that we should be able to 16 - 20 kw continuous out of this motor with NO cooling. This means that we should get around 30kw with cooling :mrgreen:
I should be ready for another test ride once I get the motor together again and retest with and without cooling attached.
Click to expand...
33 Nm of torque at 700 rpm is about 3.16 hp How were you mesureing the output? If you were running 270 phase amps what was your battery amps? What battery voltage?
 
33 Nm of torque at 700 rpm is about 3.16 hp How were you measuring the output? If you were running 270 phase amps what was your battery amps? What battery voltage?
Click to expand...
Ok see if I get this right... the heat in the motor is due to the current level. Hence we needed to find the max continuous current the motor could take without overheating. Based on our tests that is not far under 270amps without the water cooling. We have not been measuring the load... however with an electric motor you know the kt if you know the kv... (http://www.ezonemag.com/pages/faq/a405.shtml -- kt = 9.57 / kv Metric--) hence we know the torque produced by the motor.

This motor has a Kv of 75... therefore a Kt of 9.57/75 = 0.127
At 270amps that means 34Nm.

Now the Kt(and Kv) stays constant right up to the efficiency point of the motor....
Like this...
AC12_chart.png

Note this is not this motor but a 3 phase brushless inrunner..

Now power is linear function of torque and RPM...
Power [kW] = Torque [Nm] x Speed [1/min] / 9549

All we need to know is the efficiency point where the back EMF due to high RPM's stops the increase. Let's guess that at 5000rpm
power = 33Nm x 5000 / 9549
power = 17.27Kw
If 6000rpm is the point then...
power = 33Nm x 6000 / 9549
power = 20.7Kw

Hence the 21 Kw we think this motor is capable of.

Battery voltage was low, just a 48 volt pack and current was also quiet low at that point... around 30 to 40 amps from memory. You have to remember what the controller does is limit the average voltage to match (or determine) the speed of the motor. This means it has to multiply the current to the motor so the total energy in equals the total energy out (minus small losses in the controller).

-- BUT like you I am awaiting the dyno tests from the guys in Croatia.

We have validated this by measuring the torque required to turn the load we are placing on the motor. Note we do not have the equipment to directly measure the power or torque. Once on the bike I will be taking it to a Motorcycle Dyno to test it out.
 
What you posted above makes sense to me Splinter. 20kW continuous with or without cooling makes me :shock: I dont even want to think about the 5 sec current this thing could handle, maybe 400A!
 
Nuts&Volts said:
What you posted above makes sense to me Splinter. 20kW continuous with or without cooling makes me :shock: I dont even want to think about the 5 sec current this thing could handle, maybe 400A!
Click to expand...

Thanks... I did a lot of reading and re-writing of that entry to try and get it right.
I have bought a 500amp peak controller just to be sure :)
 
Ok with some continuous testing (with no water cooling) we have come up with the following information.

Phase Amps Continuous: 125 amps (average*)
Motor Temp Stabilized: approx 140 degrees C
Controller: getting a bit too hot and starting to limit

Note our biggest concern is the the phase wires out of the motor are a little small and were getting quite hot. We cooled the wires via a small fan while protecting the motor from the breeze so as not to affect the test.

The reason for the Average was a concerning measurement we performed. The three phases had different amps flowing... 150, 105, 127 amps.
This, of course, is not good. We are doing some more tests tomorrow to see if it is related to the phase windings, hall positions or the controller.

Wish me luck.
 
Ok so we have uncovered the problem. One of the hall sensors is really out of position since I re glued them into place. 2 are spot on.

This causes the unbalanced current. We have figured out a failsafe way of testing the positions and will work on the motor in the next few days.

We will redo the temp test and retest the Timing advance to ensure the right settings and then do a water test (confirm we don't have leaks).

This means that I won't be doing a ride until next weekend :(
 
Sounds like you guys are the main beta testers for this motor/controller arrangement. Hope you get the motor cheap as a result :)
 
Ok so after repositioning the Halls and checking them we redid the heat soak test today.

140 degrees C on the motor
Just under 80 degrees on the controller
120amps on the phase wires (all now withing 5 amps of each other)

So that means around 15nM continuous from this motor. Note that is with ZERO cooling! no airflow nothing. We should be able to double that with cooling.


[youtube]jshIudpMvEs[/youtube]
 
Ok so today I put the motor back on the bike... put the controller on, set to 50% motor amps (250 amp max), and took my life into my own hands.

Here is the photo record, video soon.

First Ride0 by Splinter, on Flickr



First Ride1 by Splinter, on Flickr


First Ride2 by Splinter, on Flickr


Now during the rides the BMS was cutting out the battery due to high amps (it is set to ~50amps). After a few runs I changed the kelly to only pull 20% battery amps and that stopped that. Tomorrow I will up that value until I find the highest value that does not shutdown the BMS.

I will also wire up the throttle and some switches to replace the control box.

Video up now...

[youtube]28W7udn2Nzg[/youtube]
 
Your battery pack looks rather close to the front wheel - is it just a bodge-up until a better arrangement comes along?

Looking forward to the video :D
 
Nice! :D I love the sound of it! What's the max RPM again? Sounds like it would wind out quite nicely :D
 
Congratulations on the test ride. Bike is looking great. But sounds friggin' awesome. :twisted:

- Adrian
 
You must log in or register to reply here.

Similar threads

Arlo1
Fuji 1MBI800U4B-120 IGBTs new for sale DISCOUNT! Updated September 9 2023
Replies
3
Views
1,738
Arlo1
Arlo1
N
Hi! I am new. There is a small problem with the ...
Replies
2
Views
1,311
amberwolf
amberwolf
mickyd
Can I replace my BBS02 motor core / rotor with a BBSHD?
2
Replies
27
Views
6,860
sp1n4d0
S
EVGator
EEB Mid Drive Bike - Complete or Part out
Replies
3
Views
1,959
skeetab5780
skeetab5780
B
Question to frame builders.
Replies
0
Views
2,390
BalorNG
B
Back
Top