Anyone tried EM3EV new bottle mount batteries?

[nukezero]

Ran into a big problem.

Guys, this case requires a Special BMS. I have not seen a BMS with this. NOw i know what EM3EV means when he says the BMS requires special remote power on.

You see the power on/off switch, usb functions, discharge, and a bunch of other crap goes to the BMS board. There is no other BMS board on the market with these functions. Without it, a lot of features of this case is not going to work. It will not be possible to use the toggle power on/off switch on the outside of the case.

Secondly, sticking a mini BMS isn't going to work. Most of the mini-BMS is only good for 15-20A max. For those of oyu planning to pull 30A like me, this could be a problem.

Lectric-cycles has managed to find a mini-BMS supplier with a 30A draw. But I don't think he will share with us the supplier details, that is fine.

THe only other solution is to not run a BMS and rig the power switch to a automotive relay, so that it will switch on power that way.

 

[gedong]

Ran into a big problem.

Guys, this case requires a Special BMS. I have not seen a BMS with this. NOw i know what EM3EV means when he says the BMS requires special remote power on.

You see the power on/off switch, usb functions, discharge, and a bunch of other crap goes to the BMS board. There is no other BMS board on the market with these functions. Without it, a lot of features of this case is not going to work. It will not be possible to use the toggle power on/off switch on the outside of the case.

Secondly, sticking a mini BMS isn't going to work. Most of the mini-BMS is only good for 15-20A max. For those of oyu planning to pull 30A like me, this could be a problem.

Lectric-cycles has managed to find a mini-BMS supplier with a 30A draw. But I don't think he will share with us the supplier details, that is fine.

THe only other solution is to not run a BMS and rig the power switch to a automotive relay, so that it will switch on power that way.

from voicecoils pictures, it seems that his pack using the standard BMS like this below..

though, i couldn't find whats underneath the metal case..

anyway i found this BMS, which claimed to has on / off switch, notice the 2 holes at the bottom left ( beside the screw). maybe this is the on / off switch ?

this BMS also rated @40A, and from the looks, the size is quite small. maybe around 4" length.

as for USB charging, i think you can just buy DC-DC converter ( LM2596HVS ) and connect to the USB module inside the case, which required +5V supply.

can someone confirm whether this batterycase required special BMS ( on / off switch ) ?


actually, i found more interesting picture from google, it seems someone manufactures special controller built for this case.. though its only rated 36V @15A max.


thanks

 

[nukezero]

sorry gedong but that is far from being the right BMS. That solder job looks hideous! Plus, let me re-iterate. The power switch has 5 pins! 4 wires according to your diagram all run to the BMS. Even if there was a power switch, that's only 2 wires. Yes, we can live without the USB board. I don't really see a function for it.

Also, based on voicecoil's teardown of em3ev's bike and NMEbikes schematics.... there are two ways to build this battery:

nmebikes
row1 = 8 cells
row 2,3,4,5 = 11 cells

em3ev
row 1: 6 cells
row 2: 6 cells
row 3-6: 10 cells


the reason why em3ev managed to run 6 rows instead of nmebikes 5 rows is that he uses a "staggered" setup so that the cells fit into each "groove" or two-inbetween cells. This allows him to squeeze in the 6th row.

Right now, I'm not sure which option is the best. Also, I have a couple of spare 18650 batteries and it turns out that the spacers NMEBIKES uses are also creating some gaps. These gaps could be eliminated by not using the spacers.
Also, if we run Sony VTC5's like i'm planning to, these cells are shorter. That means it would be POSSIBLE to run a LARGE BMS and mount it sideways against the topcells of the batteries. I verified that there is 4-5mm of spacer between the case and the topside cells of the batteries. With the Sony VTC5 cells, we'll gain a few more mm. That means, using a large BMS would make sense.

The fuse that came with this box is 30A. I don't think this box can take more than 30Amps like voicecoils mentioned. The discharge pins are quite small. Since my application is 30A continuous, I think I might be able to get away with it. The only thing I wish they did was when the idiots who designed this case, should have made it a little bit bigger (wider) so that one could accomodate their electronics or even their controller boards. There is not a very efficient use of space inside the case. A lot of screw ports are like in the way of the cells. They made it good looking/compact but could have made it 1cm wider and 2-3 cm longer. I'd rather have that one.

 

[nukezero]

Edit. I confirm that it is possible to put a full size BMS in there. This is doable because we don't have the USB board and switch board. So EM3ev runs 10 cells per row right? Well, if we run 11 cells... thats 44 total. Then on row 5, we can put 6 cells. That's 52 cells now. However, we still have row 6 ! Row 6 is atleast 4-5 cells wide. That allows us to fit a full BMS board in there. A good 30-40A BMS board as you please!

I verified this using my three 4x18650 flashlight batteries and just kind of aligned and eyeballed it.

So looks like I will be moving forward with this build. Then figure out a way to rig that power switch.

Another issue is the battery indicator LEDs. It's got a black and green wire. It has it's own tiny circuit board. I reckon we could just hook that up to the +/- on the 48v pack total.

To answer somebody else's question, the lock key mechanism doesn't do anything else other than to lock the pack to the rail. It serves no on/off feature. Every on/off feature is controlled by the power on/switch.

Edit again: i figured out the power switch. IT's 5 pins. +/- (possibly just for LED). and then 3 pin toggle. Off mode, two outside pins are shorted. Push the on toggled, and the two left inside pins are shorted. Very simple. Haha. If you don't care for the LED light on the power switch, then forget the first two bigger +/- pins.

 

[gedong]

sorry gedong but that is far from being the right BMS. That solder job looks hideous! Plus, let me re-iterate. The power switch has 5 pins! 4 wires according to your diagram all run to the BMS. Even if there was a power switch, that's only 2 wires. Yes, we can live without the USB board. I don't really see a function for it.

Also, based on voicecoil's teardown of em3ev's bike and NMEbikes schematics.... there are two ways to build this battery:

nmebikes
row1 = 8 cells
row 2,3,4,5 = 11 cells

em3ev
row 1: 6 cells
row 2: 6 cells
row 3-6: 10 cells


the reason why em3ev managed to run 6 rows instead of nmebikes 5 rows is that he uses a "staggered" setup so that the cells fit into each "groove" or two-inbetween cells. This allows him to squeeze in the 6th row.

Right now, I'm not sure which option is the best. Also, I have a couple of spare 18650 batteries and it turns out that the spacers NMEBIKES uses are also creating some gaps. These gaps could be eliminated by not using the spacers.
Also, if we run Sony VTC5's like i'm planning to, these cells are shorter. That means it would be POSSIBLE to run a LARGE BMS and mount it sideways against the topcells of the batteries. I verified that there is 4-5mm of spacer between the case and the topside cells of the batteries. With the Sony VTC5 cells, we'll gain a few more mm. That means, using a large BMS would make sense.

The fuse that came with this box is 30A. I don't think this box can take more than 30Amps like voicecoils mentioned. The discharge pins are quite small. Since my application is 30A continuous, I think I might be able to get away with it. The only thing I wish they did was when the idiots who designed this case, should have made it a little bit bigger (wider) so that one could accomodate their electronics or even their controller boards. There is not a very efficient use of space inside the case. A lot of screw ports are like in the way of the cells. They made it good looking/compact but could have made it 1cm wider and 2-3 cm longer. I'd rather have that one.

hi Nuke,

for battery placement configurations, i think this is more like a trial n error depend on the size of your BMS. but im sure from the above picture you can fit up to 5" long BMS which is the right size for up to 30A max. @30A continuous, you should aim for atleast 60A max BMS. and you must be running at least 50A controller.

as battery size sony VCT i guess this is standard 18650 battery cells, even if they're shorter i think it's only < 2mm. otherwise they won't pass the international standard. maybe you can look at their datasheet to make sure.

you can always change the fuse to a bigger rating, it's the same fuse you use for automotive, and you should able to find 50A fuse easily in autoshop.

so, my only concern is the BMS.do you know which one is the right BMS ? and how do you decide which BMS is right and not ? and where do i connect the power LED switch to the BMS..
right now, my only concern is to where do i connect the LED power switch to the BMS..

 

[nukezero]

sorry gedong but that is far from being the right BMS. That solder job looks hideous! Plus, let me re-iterate. The power switch has 5 pins! 4 wires according to your diagram all run to the BMS. Even if there was a power switch, that's only 2 wires. Yes, we can live without the USB board. I don't really see a function for it.

Also, based on voicecoil's teardown of em3ev's bike and NMEbikes schematics.... there are two ways to build this battery:

nmebikes
row1 = 8 cells
row 2,3,4,5 = 11 cells

em3ev
row 1: 6 cells
row 2: 6 cells
row 3-6: 10 cells


the reason why em3ev managed to run 6 rows instead of nmebikes 5 rows is that he uses a "staggered" setup so that the cells fit into each "groove" or two-inbetween cells. This allows him to squeeze in the 6th row.

Right now, I'm not sure which option is the best. Also, I have a couple of spare 18650 batteries and it turns out that the spacers NMEBIKES uses are also creating some gaps. These gaps could be eliminated by not using the spacers.
Also, if we run Sony VTC5's like i'm planning to, these cells are shorter. That means it would be POSSIBLE to run a LARGE BMS and mount it sideways against the topcells of the batteries. I verified that there is 4-5mm of spacer between the case and the topside cells of the batteries. With the Sony VTC5 cells, we'll gain a few more mm. That means, using a large BMS would make sense.

The fuse that came with this box is 30A. I don't think this box can take more than 30Amps like voicecoils mentioned. The discharge pins are quite small. Since my application is 30A continuous, I think I might be able to get away with it. The only thing I wish they did was when the idiots who designed this case, should have made it a little bit bigger (wider) so that one could accomodate their electronics or even their controller boards. There is not a very efficient use of space inside the case. A lot of screw ports are like in the way of the cells. They made it good looking/compact but could have made it 1cm wider and 2-3 cm longer. I'd rather have that one.

hi Nuke,

for battery placement configurations, i think this is more like a trial n error depend on the size of your BMS. but im sure from the above picture you can fit up to 5" long BMS which is the right size for up to 30A max. @30A continuous, you should aim for atleast 60A max BMS. and you must be running at least 50A controller.

as battery size sony VCT i guess this is standard 18650 battery cells, even if they're shorter i think it's only < 2mm. otherwise they won't pass the international standard. maybe you can look at their datasheet to make sure.

you can always change the fuse to a bigger rating, it's the same fuse you use for automotive, and you should able to find 50A fuse easily in autoshop.

so, my only concern is the BMS.do you know which one is the right BMS ? and how do you decide which BMS is right and not ? and where do i connect the power LED switch to the BMS..
right now, my only concern is to where do i connect the LED power switch to the BMS..

gedong - the power led indicator for remaining voltage is simple 2 wire pos/neg. you just run it to the battery pack and you push the button and it will show voltage. I tested it on my girlfriend's 36V pack and got a reading but it quickly disappear because the 36V is too low. So it should be easy to wire up.

Again, as for the power switch, it has 4 wires. it has a toggle. I'm thinking about using some kind of relay to turn on/off the BMS.

I will be using a large full size 30-45A BMS. The small BMS are too small and output is not great. No I have not found a suitable BMS that is designed for this case and has atleast 30-40A. It's not possible right now because you need a lot of regulators on there.

edit: the more I think about it, the more I think the switch is going to be a stupid problem. Because the toggle switch is tiny. I feel like it could break one day. Then I get no power when I'm stuck on the road, far away from home. I may just bypass it and not use it. Then run a pair of anderson pp outside. When i want power, I connect it. When I don't want power, I disconnect it. That switch is another failure point in my opinion, and it's not exactly a "decent" looking quality switch. :wink: Therefore, I may just forego it. Everything else... is probably just straight forward.

 

[gedong]

sorry, what i meant by Power LED switch is not the LED battery indicator.. it's the toggle on/off switch.

maybe you are right,i shouldn't be to concern about this little switch, i always think without this switch the battery cells will always be connected to the controller, and they will drain power.
for example, when i parked my bike on unattended public space, without on / off keylock. someone might get curious and try to push the button and accidentally push the trigger and you know what happen...

i thought there is simple answer how to make all the function works, well i guess it's a little bit complicated. and maybe i should reconsider about building this pack.

anyway Nuke, when you finished building your battery pack, please share with us.

 

[tomjasz]

Yes, we can live without the USB board. I don't really see a function for it.

Works great for charging my headlamp. BTW nukezero, thanks for the great info!

 

[Samd]

Got mine yesterday.

Nice looking. Uncomfortable with the waterproofing - particularly where the charger port is - just a flap really. Also the rail that sits on the bike's downtube is dead flat - no radius underneath, holds pretty well but for such a sculpted item then it should really have a radius built into the bottom to sit on the downtube nicer...

 

[nukezero]

I just bought this BMS after good eBay reviews/feedback. After taking measurements, it is the only flattest board I can find, that doesn't use crappy looking old school resistors. It uses smd-looking quality resistors and does 30A. That's all I need anyways. Again, trying to pull 45A out of this case is not recommended. The terminals at the battery output and rail is really questionable to handle that kind of amperage. Maybe for a couple seconds, but definitely not continuous...

It also has a 2-wire temperature sensor... I guess one could put that near the discharge connector and when it heats up, the BMS will cut power.

Size: 4.7" x 2.4" x 0.4"

 

[nukezero]

I found it! Power switch diagram!

Without the small mini special bms board, this won't work because you need 12V to get the LED to light up.

Oh... can anyone answer me this question? Do you need to apply power to a Lyen/Infineon 3077 controller to the "ignition" +12v line in order to get the controller to turn on?

The reason I ask is, actually, we can just use this switch button to turn on the controller. So we don't need to connect/disconnect an anderson power pole.

By the way, the switch is on ebay for $8.99 here.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/16mm-12V-Angel-Eye-BLUE-Led-Metal-Switch-Latching-Push-Power-Button-US-/371039027777?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item5663a64241

 

[999zip999]

O.k. Up's 2nd good start thread. Pro.
Mod. ? Title is mod from whatt rom - small hole. Like let's build some batterirs packs in a paul's box ? Sq heads jack. Go...

 

[teslanv]

Just tried to buy a lot of Panasonic NCR18650PF cells from AliExpress. Get an error saying they cannot sell to Washington State Residents due to legal restrictions.
Trying to rebuild a battery for my wife's bike, and I need 35 good quality new 18650 cells.
Now what?

 

[nukezero]

Just tried to buy a lot of Panasonic NCR18650PF cells from AliExpress. Get an error saying they cannot sell to Washington State Residents due to legal restrictions.
Trying to rebuild a battery for my wife's bike, and I need 35 good quality new 18650 cells.
Now what?

If you want Panasonic 18650PF, then you should just buy the whole thing from lectric-cycles.com. You should get Sony VTC5's (hottest battery now), LG HE2's, or the Samsung 25R (like me).

I just got my BMS today for this frame mounted pack. It is a beautiful looking BMS. Quality solder job. Plus, it uses SMC-based resistors. Not those shitty looking old school ones. The two white wires is basically a temperature sensor at the end. Neat stuff. It fits inside the case real well and you can see that even with the cell holders, it is not a problem. I will NOT be using the included cell holders. Without the cell holders, I will get more space.

I also bought some PPTC (polyswitch resettable fuse, just like what em3ev uses). This is to protect the BMS from cell short, but I don't know how beneficial this is going to be. For the cells to short means something catastrophic happened like wires got shorted or what not. Anyhow, the jury is still out whether or not I plan to use them, but they are cheap as hell for 20pcs, like $4 bucks so might as well try it and see what happens.

I also ordered the batteries overseas and they are coming soon! Here are pictures of the 4P batteries just like what ebikebert got and he's doing his build in another posted thread.

These batteries are rated at 10C and will pump out 20A max! But since the case and connector is probably only good for 30A, that means I will probably only pull about 30/4 = 7-8Amps or about 3C max.

Em3ev Paul is also ordering more 25Rs but he won't have it in stock for 2 more months plus build time plus shipping (so make it 3.5-4 months! )

 

[cell_man]

...

 

[Architectonic]

To change the direction of this thread a little, what (common) dual suspension frames would suit this case?

What are the dimensions of the mounting bracket (and location of the bolt holes to see how it would fit in a frame)?

 

[teslanv]

If you want Panasonic 18650PF, then you should just buy the whole thing from lectric-cycles.com. You should get Sony VTC5's (hottest battery now), LG HE2's, or the Samsung 25R (like me).

Got a link for those 25R cells that isn't AliExpress? Looking for a supplier that is reasonably priced and will take Paypal.

 

[nukezero]

If you want Panasonic 18650PF, then you should just buy the whole thing from lectric-cycles.com. You should get Sony VTC5's (hottest battery now), LG HE2's, or the Samsung 25R (like me).

Got a link for those 25R cells that isn't AliExpress? Looking for a supplier that is reasonably priced and will take Paypal.

Cell_man and Lectric-cycles are great people to work with and their batteries are top notch no doubt. But it is great to be able to build your own batteries for once and learn to service it. Remember, it'll be darn near impossible to ship back to Asia if a problem ever arises. Unless you ship by boat.

Both ebikebert and me bought from the same seller and it seems they are legit! Here is ebikebert's 25R build thread: http://www.endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=57291&start=150
He's not done building his pack yet but his batteries look BEAUTIFUL.

You can buy from this place: http://www.batterysupports.com/
You can contact the seller directly, Lilian: supowerbattery@gmail.com

Ask her to send you a paypal invoice. She does not charge 3% :lol: or foreign exchange fees.

She is EXTREMELY helpful. We swapped emails back-to-back every 10 minutes over 3 days trying to get the tabs, pictures, and configurations of how I wanted the pack built right. Then she went off to get the tabs welded and came back the next day, and took all these pictures for me. Her service/company turn-around is great. Her english is very good and she understands series/parallel terminology. What's great about them is that she gives you tab welding service (series/parallel or both) for FREE plus gives you free cell spacers if you want. They sort of slide/click-in and hold up like a brick. I opted to NOT have cell spacers because they will not fit in this shitty plastic case. Also, they're in China. Observe time-zones. She responds business hours in China time. So I interface with her late at night state-side back-to-back.

But remember, shipping these cells from China via air, is getting more difficult. Have some patience. ebikebert got his in Florida. I'm in California. So I've prepared myself for some downtime. I don't even have my lightningrod motor yet so I don't care.

I can tell you that I've spent under $500 shipped/out the door for thirteen 4P's and six 2S bricks. That's 64 cells in total. I bought some spares for backup. You should too! The BMS cost me $50 and it's from signalLabs. Lots of people use it on ES here. The case was $65 from nmebikes. All in all, I saved a GREAT deal a money, got the BEST cells, and learned a lot.

I will be soldering the bricks together at the tabs. A lot of people here use solderless solutions for years and no problem. But I like to use solder for that extra security. The problem with tab welding everything in my opinion is that it will make servicing a pain in the butt. That's why I chose to go with separated 4P bricks.

You know we should probably start a business like this and provide the LATEST and great cells state-side for US/North America people. A lot of vendors here in CA have Sony VTC5s and LG HE2s. But I don't know why it's hard for Asia and European countries to get them. They are a bit more expensive though. VTC5's are 10 bux a piece and HE2's are like 9 bux. The 25R offers the best value in terms of cost/performance but the VTC5's I "heard" doesn't drift so a BMS is not needed.

 

[teslanv]

nukezero,

Exactly what I was looking for. Thanks for the excellent write-up and links. Much appreciated!!!

 

[cal3thousand]

Thanks for the post Nukezero!

So there are no tabs on the negative ends and you will solder directly onto the negative?

 

[nukezero]

Thanks for the post Nukezero!

So there are no tabs on the negative ends and you will solder directly onto the negative?

no, absolutely not. The tabs are there for the negative. Here's a picture of how I will wire the 4P packs in series. The two tabs are basically the same terminal but I will run two wires to double my amperage throughput.

I'm not planning to solder tab to tab, I'm planning to use two 18 or 16 gauge wire in between. 18 gauge is good for 16amps. 16 gauge is good for 22amps. That is according to the American Association of Wires and BullCrap ... Two wires, times 2 is 32, 44 amps respectively per pack. So that is more than enough juice than the BMS can handle.

The reason why i'm doing it this way is so that I can remove the pack and there is flexibility. Otherwise, the the whole thing is a hard piece of brick. Since the case itself is already acting as a "wrap" or seal. I don't see too much more purpose in shrink-wrapping the whole thing like crazy. 18650 cells are already physically well protected cells compared to pouch/lipo's. I mean you can drop it on the floor and it'll survive. But you drop a RC lipo, that is probably not going to be the case.

Now the reason why you see my tabs are slanted inwards is because as it turns out, there is a gap of space when you put the cells together. These gaps between every every is wasted dead space. A 16 or 18 gauge wire is PERFECT for it run through here. So when I solder the pack, I'll flip it over and guide the wire in between the cells.

Again, this is how I "imagined" of doing it. Yours might be different. Just make sure you use quality gauge wire and double it up so that your current flow is times 2.

 

[999zip999]

I thought you were going to a start a build thread about the case so as being fare to Paul and title.
Besides that I like the info and will need a build soon.

 

[nukezero]

I thought you were going to a start a build thread about the case so as being fare to Paul and title.
Besides that I like the info and will need a build soon.

I should.. but i'm too lazy to re-write a whole story.. maybe sometime this week.

 

[999zip999]

Maybe a Mod can pull it apart for a so and so box stlye battery build thread. As respect to paul's battery kit.

 

[teslanv]

Lilian is my new best friend.
35 NCR18650PF cells for $6.98 each, welded into a 7S5P pack.