Are all batteries with more ah higher than those with less ah?

Joined
Mar 18, 2019
Messages
20
Do you know any deep cycle lead battery with more than 15 ah that fit into space that the this battery is taking?

https://www.walmart.com/ip/ML12-12-12V-12AH-F2-Battery-Replaces-WKA12-12F2-Genuine/171422529?athbdg=L1700

I have the battery in this picture, it fits but it does not give me the range.

My battery is under a hood that is just 6.5 inch high. :(
 
I don't know what your subject line:
Are all batteries with more ah higher than those with less ah?
is asking, but:


If this is the same vehicle as this thread:
https://endless-sphere.com/forums/viewtopic.php?f=14&t=115270
then I would recommend adding external batteries in a weather-resistant case (like Pelican, etc) mounted under the seat, etc. to get extra range without recharging.

Alternately, you can replace with a more efficient chemistry than lead-acid, which will give you at best half of the rated capacity. There are a number of 12v-replacement Lithium chemistry batteries that are likely to give you better range *and* a longer lifespan, as long as they can handle the current draw (amps, A), and as long as you can find one the same size as your existing lead-acid battery.

It's possible that the orignal battery actually was one of these, and that is why you got twice the range you now get (because even if rated for the same Ah, (amp-hours), the lithium battery would give you about twice the actual delivered capacity than the same-rated lead-acid battery. They'll also usually be noticeably lighter than the same lead battery.


The problem right now is figuring out what battery you actually need.

The system you have claims to be 36v, but it cannot be, because you only have one 12v battery according to the other thread, and if it were a 36v system, it would not operate on only one; it's controller would have a safety shutdown to prevent destroying the battery at about 30v or so (since a 12v lead acid battery is "dead" at about 10v).

But if it's not already a 36v system, you can't just plug in a 36v battery; that could damage the electronics.

Another problem is that a 36v system will draw only about 1/3 the amps (current) to make the same power that a 12v system does, so if yours is 12v, it's three times as hard on the battery as it would be if it was 36v. So if it is a 350W system, then if it were 36v, it would only draw about 10A or so from the battery. But a 12v system draws 30A to do the same thing, and that's a lot harder on teh battery, so the battery can't deliver the same total range.



So you first need to find out whether your system is really 12v, or 36v.

The simplest is to look at your charger. If it has a label, you can take a picture of it and attach that picture to your post so we can see it, or you can type out everything it says on the label *exactly* as it says it. Uusally a 12v system will have a charger with a max voltage of around 13.6-14.4v.

Alternately, if you have only one battery in the entire system, and there are none hidden in other compartments, and you replaced it with a 12v battery, and the system still operated normally, at the same speed as before, with the same readings on the battery meter under the same ride conditions, then it is a 12v system.

If you have a voltmeter or multimeter you can set to 200VDC, you can verify the system voltage by finding the thickest wires that go into the controller box that runs the motor. (usually where most of the wires go into a metal or plastic box). If it's a 12v system it's probably a brushed motor, and so will have two thick wires going to the motor, and two thick wires going to the battery, and a few thin wires going elsewhere. You'd measure the voltage at each of the pairs of thick wires, with it turned on but not riding it, and see if you read just 12v or not.


Once you know if it's 12v or 36v, then you can find a battery that does what you need it to. A 12v battery has to be able to supply at least 30A without much voltage sag (meaning, how much the voltage drops while the system is moving you at the max power level), to provide the 350W your system is rated at. (assuming it actually only draws that much; you'd have ot use a wattmeter to verify this if you want to know for sure).
 
Within the AGM manufacturers I gave you, look for deep cycle units, and their dimensions.

Note AGM can be laid down on their side, no problem
 
High Amberwolf and all you other nice folks.

In this video you can see my electric trike model and also the battery on 7:20 in the video.

It is one battery, with dimension 15.6 x 10.5 x 10.9 cm, 12 V 12 Ah, weighs 3.43 kg.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Ee_Fhi1aT0&t=301s

I would like to find a deep cycle battery with more Ah than just 12 but it seems that all batteries with more ampare are too high and big to fit my trike.

A 24 ah battery like this would never fit, right?

https://www.walmart.com/ip/12v-24ah-sealed-lead-acid-sla-battery-for-sealed-deep-cycle/218725709?wmlspartner=wlpa&selectedSellerId=313
 
Don't use a lead acid battery if you want range, performance, or lifespan.

If you use a lithium iron phosphate battery, you can use the same charger that your scooter has now.

At least 24 of these cells would fit in the space you have available. (They'd be about 4 x 5-1/4 x 5-3/8" high.) That's 3 times as much nominal capacity and 5-6 times as much practical capacity as a 12V 12Ah lead battery.

There are other cells that are easier to assemble into packs, which would also increase your range without much expense. If you can fit in 12 of these, that would be 24Ah nominal.

All you'd need to do to make them emulate a lead acid battery is put them in a series of 4 groups and attach a balance board to keep the individual cell voltages equal. Your existing charger should keep them from being overcharged, and the low voltage protection in your scooter should keep them from being overdischarged.
 
Hi Chalo,

Thanks for your valuable advice. I am not a mechanic at all and I don't know if the mechanic in my rural area knows how to assemble these into a pack.

This is the problem. Compared to my local mechanic, you sound like Einstein. I don't think he can do it. He just can do the simple stuff.
 
Chalo said:
At least 24 of these cells would fit in the space you have available. (They'd be about 4 x 5-1/4 x 5-3/8" high.) That's 3 times as much nominal capacity and 5-6 times as much practical capacity as a 12V 12Ah lead battery.
Have you purchased any to check voltage variance of say 24 to see if all 24 are within at least 0.010mV of each other? Seems the degree of voltage variance would give an idea of the age of these so-called "new" cells.

Any guess on what the shipping voltage is of new LIFEP04 32650 cells? What equipment were they originally manufactured for use ?

Advertised as "new" meaning (unused), but any idea how long they've been in storage when priced at only $3.25 ea.
 
eMark said:
Chalo said:
At least 24 of these cells would fit in the space you have available.
Have you purchased any to check voltage variance of say 24 to see if all 24 are within at least 0.010mV of each other?
[...]Advertised as "new" meaning (unused), but any idea how long they've been in storage when priced at only $3.25 ea.

They were manufactured for Battery Hookup and came into stock not terribly long ago. These cells for sale may well be that original batch that's a couple years old now. My only experience with them is helping a buddy of mine replace an SLA battery in a portable speaker. The cells met their spec (he added a Bluetooth BMS to monitor them) and are still working as expected.
 
Thanks eMark and Chalo, I appreciate your help.

According to the manufacturer, I have this battery system: 36 Volts 10Ah (and need three 12v Batteries). However, they seem to be in one pack, not seperate 3 batteries and that did confuse me. In other words, when I look under the hood, I just saw one battery case and not 3 seperate batteries. Of course, I didn't open the hard plastic shell to see if there are 3 in it.

When I asked them for a link to order the battery pack, they mailed me this link and told me that I need 3 of these. https://mototecusa.com/12v-7ah-battery.aspx

But my trike does not have the place for 3 batteries of this kind.

They are sending me around in circles. This company is a nightmare. :(

I now ordered a wheelchair battery from another company that fits in size in my trike and can return it if it does not work out.

Keep your fingers please crossed for me that this was the right decision.
 
Vaporizing2019 said:
According to the manufacturer, I have this battery system: 36 Volts 10Ah (and need three 12v Batteries). However, they seem to be in one pack, not seperate 3 batteries and that did confuse me. In other words, when I look under the hood, I just saw one battery case and not 3 seperate batteries. Of course, I didn't open the hard plastic shell to see if there are 3 in it.

When I asked them for a link to order the battery pack, they mailed me this link and told me that I need 3 of these. https://mototecusa.com/12v-7ah-battery.aspx

But my trike does not have the place for 3 batteries of this kind.

<snip>

I now ordered a wheelchair battery from another company that fits in size in my trike and can return it if it does not work out.
As long as it is a 36v battery (and capable of producing the current (amps) required by the system under load), it would electrically work...if it is not a 36v battery, your system is not going to work correctly.
 
Vaporizing2019 said:
According to the manufacturer, I have this battery system: 36 Volts 10Ah (and need three 12v Batteries). However, they seem to be in one pack, not seperate 3 batteries and that did confuse me. In other words, when I look under the hood, I just saw one battery case and not 3 seperate batteries. Of course, I didn't open the hard plastic shell to see if there are 3 in it.

When I asked them for a link to order the battery pack, they mailed me this link and told me that I need 3 of these. https://mototecusa.com/12v-7ah-battery.aspx ... Battery Size: L 5.94 x W 2.54 x H 4.38 inches

But my trike does not have the place for 3 batteries of this kind.
You're still confusing us by your last sentence. WHY doesn't your trike have room for those three MotoTec 12V-7Ah batteries? The reason you're still confusing us is because those three older 12V Chinese batteries rated at 10Ah would most likely have a wider dimension than 2.54". Would you PLEASE have your mechanic measure the L x W x H (including terminal) of one of those Chinese batteries (before posting again}, and have him verify if those three older Chinese batteries are in fact connected in series (36V), not parallel (12V). PLEASE if it isn't too much to ask ... Dimensions (L x W X H) of one of the Chinese batteries and have him verify that/if they are connected in series (36V), and not in parallel (12V). Thankyou :D :D :D

That's what i figured all along (3-12V batteries) instead of just ONE 12V battery as you claimed in your other thread. The reason i went to all the effort in the "12V only one battery (deep cycle) in other thread is to flush you out (call your bluff) as you now admit in this thread that there are actually 3 small 12V batteries ... apparently in series (36V) and not in parallel which i still question at only 7Ah capacity. If in fact your charger is not 36V, but rather 12V. So here are 2 - 7Ah options and 1 - 6Ah option ...

Battery Size: L 5.94 x W 2.54 x H 4.38 inches ... https://mototecusa.com/12v-7ah-battery.aspx ... in order to get the mileage you claimed with those 3 Chinese batteries makes me think whether they're in series (36V) or IF in parallel meaning suggested 7ah replacement resulting in 12V.21Ah. Either was (series or parallel) it made no sense to add one new Mighty-Max 12V.12Ah to the two older 12V 10ah Chinese batteries (a mismatch). If you used a 12V charger than those three Chinese 12V 10ah batteries are connected in parallel resulting in 30Ah capacity when knew, but now maybe only 15-20Ah.

Your Mighty-Max 12V 12Ah is L 5.94 x W 3.86 x H 3.98 inches ... its width is 1.34 inches wider than the recommended 7ah battery (W 3.54"), so three of your M-M 12V.12A laid flat would result in a height of 3.86 x 2 = 7.72 inches compared to two of the Chinese with W 2.54" x 2 = 5.08" (only 2 are laid on top of each other) with 3 older 10Ah capacity wired in series (36V 10Ah) or if 3 Chinese batteries wired in parallel with 12V charger results in 12V 30Ah power when new (if not over-rated).

If it were me and you plan on keeping your e-trike for at least 3 more years i'd invest in 3 of these deep cycle LiFeP04 12V 7Ah batteries (L 5.94 x W 2.56 x H 3.70 inches with inside BMS) ... $39.99 x 3 = $119.97 ... isn't it worth it?
https://www.amazon.com/Battery-HWE-Lithium-LiFePO4-Outdoor/dp/B095K38M6C/ref=asc_df_B095K38M6C/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=532484193990&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=15764972556198169654&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9019693&hvtargid=pla-1427771255674&psc=1

OR if you'd rather go el-cheapo ... https://batteryguy.com/optronics+a5712-replacement-battery.html ... $16.44 x 3 = $49.32
Dimensions: L 5.95" x W 2.56" x H 3.7" (3.94" terminal height)

OR middle of the road (deep cycle 6Ah LFP ... https://www.amazon.com/Ampere-Time-Phosphate-Rechargeable-Self-Discharge/dp/B085N3BYR6/ref=asc_df_B085N3BYR6/?tag=hyprod-20&linkCode=df0&hvadid=475692023481&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=15764972556198169654&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9019693&hvtargid=pla-1138553623357&th=1 ... $29.99 x 3 = $89.97
Dimensions: L 5.94 x W 2.56 x H 3.70 inches

OR if you don't plan on keeping your MotoTek past more than 2 yrs than this might be the best deal buying 3 of these Mighty-Max 12V 8Ah SLA batteries ... L 5.94" x W 2.56" x H 3.7" (3.94" terminal height) https://www.homedepot.com/p/MIGHTY-MAX-BATTERY-12-Volt-8-Ah-Sealed-Lead-Acid-SLA-Rechargeable-Battery-ML8-12/308036540?MERCH=REC-_-pipsem-_-307979135-_-308036540-_-N ... $20.83 x 3 = $62.49 with AGM Tecnology :thumb: ... check to see if Home Depot can still order this battery as they probably don't stock it. Buy just 1

Whichever option you choose the increase in overall height option when laid flat is only 0.04" higher than MotoTec recommendation
W 2.54" MotoTek recommendation versus the other opt 2.56" or 5.08" versus 5.12"
 
eMark said:
Vaporizing2019 said:
According to the manufacturer, I have this battery system: 36 Volts 10Ah (and need three 12v Batteries). However, they seem to be in one pack, not seperate 3 batteries and that did confuse me. In other words, when I look under the hood, I just saw one battery case and not 3 seperate batteries.
You're still confusing us by your last sentence. WHY doesn't your trike have room for those three MotoTec 12V-7Ah batteries? The reason you're still confusing us is because those three older 12V Chinese batteries rated at 10Ah would most likely have a wider dimension than 2.54". Would you PLEASE have your mechanic measure the L x W x H (including terminal) of one of those Chinese batteries (before posting again}, and have him verify if those three older Chinese batteries are in fact connected in series (36V), not parallel (12V). PLEASE if it isn't too much to ask ... Dimensions (L x W X H) of one of the Chinese batteries and have him verify that/if they are connected in series (36V), and not in parallel (12V).
He's saying that there was only one battery in there--it probably contains 18 cells (2v each, equivalent of 3 lead batteries) inside it, but there's only one casing, and I would guess that is probably why 3 separate ones won't fit, because they have the extra sides of casing around them where they meet that the single one wouldn't have.

Please also note that his charger has been stated to be 36v, so there isn't any way for the original batteries to be 3 x 12v connected in parallel (if they were, the charger would have destroyed them long ago). They have to be series connected (inside the single battery casing) to work with that charger.


I still cant' figure out how his system could have ever worked with his single 12v battery replacement, though--all the 36v brushless controllers I've ever worked with have LVCs in them that would have kept it from moving at all at that voltage.
 
Vaporizing2019 said:
Amberwolf, thanks so much for you detailed posting. I appreciate your help very much. My system has 36V. Here are the specs and details of my electric trike: https://wheelywheels.com/products/mototec-electric-trike-36v-350w
  • Battery: Three 12v 12ah Batteries (36 volts total)
  • Battery System: 36 Volts 10Ah (Three 12v Batteries)

Vaporizing2019 said:
The original lead battery was in Chinese. The only thing what I could read on it was 12V10ah, and Mr. Hu. :D The American store that sold me the trike does not many technical details. They just sell it. I tried to talk to the Chinese manufacturer and talked to them on the phone but they don't understand me and I don't understand them. :lol:
Being that the original MotoTec Battery also has a 12Ah rating its width may be as much as 3.86" (same as that Mighty-Max). Depending on how a battery is rated it could be rated at both 10Ah and 12Ah. If so 3 of those Mighty-Max 12V.12Ah batteries just may fit. In that youtube you posted ... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7Ee_Fhi1aT0&t=301s ... it shows how to measure the battery pack voltage (see 8:45 to 9:03 minutes). The fully charged battery voltage is 43.6V meaning that each of the 3 fully charged 12V batteries is at 14.53V. That Chinese battery can be rated at both 10Ah and 12Ah depending on its energy use.

You or someone needs to open up the 3 battery enclosure and remove one of the Chinese 12V 10Ah batteries to measure its L x W x H. If the width is at least 2.60" with the other dimensions the same you will be able to use a 12V.10Ah LiFeP04 like this 10Ah LFP battery ... https://www.eco-worthy.com/products/lifepo4-12v-10ah-20ah-30ah-lithium-iron-phosphate-battery?variant=37586593349820&currency=USD&utm_medium=product_sync&utm_source=google&utm_content=sag_organic&utm_campaign=sag_organic&gclid=CjwKCAiA4KaRBhBdEiwAZi1zzj_0mfK1YtKH_ukhCgZp_ONpSUdLAZkg_Pk2bqFeOFc5GQzSF0hKrBoCvZMQAvD_BwE ... here's another that should fit, but you first need to measure the L x W x H of the Chinese 12V 10AH battery ... https://www.walmart.com/ip/12V-10AH-Lithium-Replacement-Battery-for-DURA12-7F/206557160?wmlspartner=wlpa&selectedSellerId=1082&&adid=22222222227458552520&wl0=&wl1=g&wl2=c&wl3=538090834979&wl4=aud-1183291748582:pla-1394250724962&wl5=9019693&wl6=&wl7=&wl8=&wl9=pla&wl10=112561763&wl11=online&wl12=206557160&veh=sem&gclid=CjwKCAiA4KaRBhBdEiwAZi1zzoxsjxZ8WLecHYPDi13WMjCqzQttEJwzkhIzSh6EHv7UvJrGPJUz-xoCwYIQAvD_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds ... here's another 12V 10Ah LFP ... https://www.amazon.com/Lithium-LiFePO4-Rechargeable-Maintenance-Free-Lighting/dp/B097BRKCQP/ref=asc_df_B097BRKCQP/?tag=hyprod-

The width of you M-M 12V.12Ah may not fit with its width of 3.86" ... need to compare to width of Chinese battery.

Vaporizing2019 said:
My current battery has these dimensions: 3.98 inch x 5.94 inch x 3.86 inch and I don't find any battery with the same size that has more thand 15 ah. Otherwise I would buy a 12V batttery say with 24 ah and solve my problem but when it does not fit in the space, what can I do?
The 12V 24Ah wheelchair battery won't work so you'll need to return it. Don't even mess around trying it or you may damage the Controller in your MotoTek. As you've already posted your MotoTek is powered by 36V system not 12V system.

The advantages of LiFeP04 power costs more, but it has advantages not found with SLA power ...

Built tough and crafted out of Lithium Iron Phosphate (LiFePo4) technology the battery lasts longer than SLA. With a lifespan of 2,000 charge cycles a LFP battery will last up to 5 times longer than your typical SLA battery while providing 100% more capacity at 60% less weight. Rated at 7 Ampere Hours (Ah), this is our smallest and lightest battery. Ideal for industrial purposes where you need a long lifespan battery that charges quickly, or for outdoor uses where weight is at a premium. Bulk pricing may be available for quantities of 3 or more. A LiFePO4 charger is recommended for optimal performance.

You may have to truck your MotoTek to a town with an e-bike shop to remove and replace the cells. They may even have a good spring sale on just the replacement (deep cycle) batteries (3) that would satisfy your needs for the next 4 years.
 
Back
Top